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Old 05-21-2013, 03:55 AM   #1501
RedBlackAttack
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz
I love how you pointed out that Tony is a cheater and deserves no respect yet you rank the self-confessed steroid user so high.
There's a huge... Massive difference between using EPO and putting cement in your gloves. It isn't even worth debating.

Margs could have very easily killed someone in there with what he was doing. It is basically THE worst offense you can commit while partaking in this sport.

And, No. 4 on this list is not "so high" for Mosley. He's had an incredible career and easily has an argument for top 3 on this particular list. Obviously, you weren't punishing SMM on your list for PED use, considering you have Morales so high and he tested positive for steroid use. Morales was also rumored to be a heavy cocaine user who may have used the drug before fights (cocaine was rampant in his training camps, allegedly).

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Old 05-21-2013, 04:05 AM   #1502
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonD13
Mosely got caught too (Tetrahydrogestrinone)


some of my favorite fighters who officially cheated are:

Roy Jones Jr
Vitali Klitschko
James Toney
Tommy Morrison

:-(


It's a difficult subject. There are all kind of people taking all kind of stuff...
Lots of great fighters have been caught with PEDs. Mosley admitted it under oath and never actually tested positive. I believe it was EPO that he took prior to DLH/SMM II. That is what cyclists take for endurance purposes.

Other guys who tested positive for PEDs aside from the ones you listed are Erik Morales, Fernando Vargas, Andre Berto, Lamont Peterson, Antonio Tarver, Orlando Salido...

Sadly, it appears PED use has been rather rampant in this sport, like it is in all sports. Hell, many of these guys who tested positive fought one another.

And, something tells me the list of guys who used PEDs and weren't caught would blow people's minds. It is just a dark side of sports that fans have to learn to deal with. There are lots of gray areas, like some substances becoming illegal over time which fighters used at one time when they were legal, some things being legal in one state and illegal in others, etc. It is a complicated issue.


Using cement in your gloves? That is on a different level of cheating. I'll also note Tito Trinidad was caught using illegal wraps, too. A lot of people think that is in large part what led to his devastating power early in his career and why it seemed to go away as he aged (ie: got caught).

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Old 05-21-2013, 05:26 AM   #1503
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Rba iv said before how highly I think of prime Roy. He would have been number 1 on my list if I was including him and the gap between him and number 2 would be the largest in the list. That said he wasn't in the list. I ranked off of the list provided with the exception of leaving margarito and zane off because I don't think they deserve to be on the list. The Rjj comment was simply because if his timing of coming to boxing really was about 5 years ago he missed one of the truly transcendent talents in all of sports. What lebron is to basketball, prime Rjj was to boxing. An athlete who was just beyond everyone else and with all the video available now there is no reason for a boxing fan to miss seeing that. I'm 27 so rjjs prime coincided with my youth and he will always be my favorite boxer and one of my favorite athletes.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:41 AM   #1504
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
There's a huge... Massive difference between using a PED and putting cement in your gloves. It isn't even worth debating.

Margs could have very easily killed someone in there with what he was doing. It is basically THE worst offense you can commit while partaking in this sport.

And, No. 4 on this list is not "so high" for Mosley. He's had an incredible career and easily has an argument for top 3 on this particular list.



Cheating is cheating man.. You're telling me a boxer who has a hammer in his gloves is more of a cheat than a boxer strong as Hulk? Both are equally unacceptable and there should be no double standards.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:50 AM   #1505
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

As for Mosley's resume:

Leija
De La Hoya (2x) *
Vargas (2x)
Mayorga
Margarito

Mosley had a good career but it's far from "incredible".
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:52 AM   #1506
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz
As for Mosley's resume:

Leija
De La Hoya (2x) *
Vargas (2x)
Mayorga
Margarito

Mosley had a good career but it's far from "incredible".
Who exactly outside of those top 3 comes even close to matching that?
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:13 AM   #1507
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And btw, I'll add that the matches that you win/the names on your resume aren't the only thing that matters. The account you give of yourself in losses and whom you were willing to fight matters too. Ie even if the 4th fight hadn't happened, the PAC/jmm fights would still have added to his legacy even though they were losses and a draw. Same thing with hagler hearns. That fight still adds to hearns legacy(it's the one thing reason I wish Floyd would have made the manny fight happen)
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:26 AM   #1508
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

barrera & morales > mosley, cotto, zab, margarito
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:42 AM   #1509
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
Who exactly outside of those top 3 comes even close to matching that?

Morales

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Jones
-Kelley

Barrera

-Morales x2
-Hamed
-Tapia
-Ayala

Marquez

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Diaz
-Casamayor

Alright, JMM's resume is fukking weak to be honest and you could argue that Mosley has a better resume but that impressive KO win over Pac tho, it's more impressive than Mosley's victory over Oscar IMO.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:57 AM   #1510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz
Morales

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Jones
-Kelley

Barrera

-Morales x2
-Hamed
-Tapia
-Ayala

Marquez

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Diaz
-Casamayor

Alright, JMM's resume is fukking weak to be honest and you could argue that Mosley has a better resume but that impressive KO win over Pac tho, it's more impressive than Mosley's victory over Oscar IMO.
How? Dlh was at his absolute peak... PAC wasn't even close
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:01 AM   #1511
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

The thing is, all of the 3 Mexican legends and pacs greatness are intertwined because they are all each others best wins/fights
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:16 AM   #1512
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
How? Dlh was at his absolute peak... PAC wasn't even close

Mosley's fights vs Oscar were both close. (but yeah a win is a win I guess) In the second fight vs Oscar he admitted that he was on steroids. (*) I'm just saying that I am more impressed by JMM's KO win. At the age of 39, Marquez ended Pacquiao's reign.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:27 AM   #1513
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
The thing is, all of the 3 Mexican legends and pacs greatness are intertwined because they are all each others best wins/fights

They're like the 00's version of Duran, Leonard, Hearns and Hagler.

If only JMM fought Morales.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:02 PM   #1514
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz
Mosley's fights vs Oscar were both close. (but yeah a win is a win I guess) In the second fight vs Oscar he admitted that he was on steroids. (*) I'm just saying that I am more impressed by JMM's KO win. At the age of 39, Marquez ended Pacquiao's reign.
Mosley was the first fighter to clearly beat DLH. That matters quite a bit.

JMM's fights against Pacquiao (all of them help his legacy) may have an edge over Mosley's wins over DLH, because DLH was never as great as Pacquiao was... But outside of those fights, Mosley's legacy is superior to JMM's.

Like I said... He absolutely dominated the lightweight division before fighting DLH. He was 34-0 and was forced to move up, not because he had to, but because he had no competition at 140 or below.

Mosley had a hell of a legacy before he stepped in against Oscar. He followed that dominance up by becoming the first man to clearly beat DLH. He was 38-0 before the Vernon Forest fights and against elite competition. Then he later beat the likes of Fernando Vargas, Ricardo Mayorga when Mayorga was the champ at 154, demolished Margarito when he was champ at 154...


I was a big fan of Barrera and Morales, but neither of those guys have the resume to stack up against Mosley. If you want to argue JMM, I guess that's reasonable (still wrong, but at least an argument can be made)... But not the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz


Cheating is cheating man.. You're telling me a boxer who has a hammer in his gloves is more of a cheat than a boxer strong as Hulk? Both are equally unacceptable and there should be no double standards.

Ah, yes. There is a huge difference.

Beating someone with a blunt object in what is supposed to be a boxing match in comparison to a guy taking EPO, which helps endurance? Not close to the same thing.

Furthermore, even if you take away Mosley's second win against DLH, it wouldn't change his position much. His legacy goes far beyond one fight, whereas Margarito's career is directly tied to a couple of big fights and his biggest win (Cotto) appears to be the result of said blunt object.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-21-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 05-21-2013, 07:45 PM   #1515
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack

JMM's fights against Pacquiao (all of them help his legacy) may have an edge over Mosley's wins over DLH, because DLH was never as great as Pacquiao was... But outside of those fights, Mosley's legacy is superior to JMM's.

Like I said... He absolutely dominated the lightweight division before fighting DLH. He was 34-0 and was forced to move up, not because he had to, but because he had no competition at 140 or below.

Mosley had a hell of a legacy before he stepped in against Oscar. He followed that dominance up by becoming the first man to clearly beat DLH. He was 38-0 before the Vernon Forest fights and against elite competition. Then he later beat the likes of Fernando Vargas, Ricardo Mayorga when Mayorga was the champ at 154, demolished Margarito when he was champ at 154...

I was a big fan of Barrera and Morales, but neither of those guys have the resume to stack up against Mosley. If you want to argue JMM, I guess that's reasonable (still wrong, but at least an argument can be made)... But not the others.

Aside from Leija, who are the other notable opponents did Mosley beat at lightweight??? Those guy's weren't elite competition. Morales and Barrera fought way better competition at the lower weights than Mosley did and their wins against each other alone is better than any of Mosley's win at lightweight.

Quote:
Ah, yes. There is a huge difference.

Beating someone with a blunt object in what is supposed to be a boxing match in comparison to a guy taking EPO, which helps endurance? Not close to the same thing.

Furthermore, even if you take away Mosley's second win against DLH, it wouldn't change his position much. His legacy goes far beyond one fight, whereas Margarito's career is directly tied to a couple of big fights and his biggest win (Cotto) appears to be the result of said blunt object.

I agree that without a doubt Mosley has a better legacy than Margarito, but since everyone is assuming that Margarito fought with plaster in his gloves even before the Mosley fight can we also assume that Mosley was on roids even before his 1st De La Hoya fight? BTW, Mosley didn't just took EPO he took a couple more stronger shit than that. Look it up. Like I've said, any form of cheating is cheating to me and there should be no double standard.
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