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Old 05-21-2013, 01:30 AM   #1726
raiderfan19
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

I'd also add that you didn't include Andre ward who will be very high on this list at some point. He has the ability to be an atg
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:52 AM   #1727
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by raiderfan19
It depends, what are you asking to rank them on, greatness as a boxer or greatness of a career? I know that sounds like an odd choice but I think it's an important distinction to make. IMO Hopkins is clearly below Floyd and manny on the greatness as a fighter list simply because he never had the physical skills either of them possesses. Not even when he was absolutely dominating at middleweight. He never had blazing speed or true knockout power. But in terms of greatness of a career? He doesn't take a backseat to anyone on this list. His peak(the aforementioned dominating run at middleweight) goes up against anyone's and his longevity is not even close to being matched(though the more I think about it, Floyd might take a shot at it if he ends up losing a close decision at some point and no longer has to worry about protecting his 0.

With that in mind here is my list based on greatness at a fighter
1.floyd
2. Manny
3. Mosley
4. Hopkins
5. Jmm
6. Morales
7. Vitaly(iv never understood why the klitschko with the bad chin gets ranked higher, I know the brothers chose to allow him to keep the main belts but lets be honest if they fought big brother would beat lil brother. He's never lost other than due to injury)
8. Morales
9. Cotto(I think you are underselling him a hair rba. He was great IMO. Not high enough to be on an all time list but still a great fighter)


I'll also add if you missed Rjj you seriously need to go watch his fights from his prime. He would be first on this list from the pure greatness category if included. His best takes a backseat to absolutely no one ever.

Different people could have different criteria for ranking these guys, but if you are taking into account "most dominant during his prime," RJJ would be a distant No. 1. Mayweather is the closest, but RJJ never had issues during his prime like Floyd did with Castillo.

Fighting other greats like James Toney and Bernard Hopkins, RJJ rarely if ever lost a round, let alone a fight.

He was phenomenal. I've said before, at his best at 168, I might favor him over any 168-pounder who has ever lived. He was that dominant.


----


As for Cotto, I respect the hell out of the guy, but I look at his best wins and it is a bit underwhelming if you're putting him in the "great" category.

Who would it be? 36-year-old Mosley? Razor-thin decision over Josh Clottey? Zab Judah who had lost his previous two fights and was 4-3 in his previous 7, including a loss to Corey Spinks?

Cotto has fought the best guys in the world in the last five years or so and he has almost always given a good showing. Problem is, he hasn't beaten another truly great fighter in or near his prime.

That would be my argument. He went from being maybe the most protected fighter in the game from 2001-07 to a guy who will fight anyone in the world, but won't beat the best.


----


I don't think there's any debate that SMM shouldn't be in the Top 4 and I almost put him ahead of Hopkins as well (that is a close call).

Anyone putting him below that paid no attention to his absolutely dominant years as a lightweight. He was the most dominant lightweight of the last decade.

It wasn't a case of him just being bigger than everyone else, either. He grew into these bigger weights. When he was 34-0 as a lightweight, he could have continued to fight in those weights, but made the jump way up in weight class to find competition after cleaning out 135.

He didn't make just any jump, either... He went from 135 to 147 and took on DeLaHoya who had really never been clearly beaten in the ring. Trinidad got the decision over him, but it was more about DLH thinking he had it won after dominating early than Tito being the clearly better man.

Shane made that huge jump, stepped in against a prime DLH and gave him his first absolutely clear loss in his career. Then, he continued beating name opponents from 147-154 for the next decade... All this after showing his greatness at lightweight.


I don't see any argument for anyone over him on Kizzle's list aside from Floyd, Pac and Hopkins.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 05-21-2013 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:51 AM   #1728
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Hopkins
4. Mosley
5. Marquez
6. Morales
7. Cotto
8. Zab
9. Klits
10. Margarito

Margarito is a flat-out cheater. He deserves no respect. His career was a sham, as far as I'm concerned.

Klits have spent their careers in an utter wasteland and I've never been overly impressed by either one.

Zab had elite talent, but never quite realized what he could have been.

Cotto is a warrior, but not quite in the "great fighter" category, imo. Very good, not great.

The rest are great fighters in a historical sense.

I love how you pointed out that Tony is a cheater and deserves no respect yet you rank the self-confessed steroid user so high.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:46 AM   #1729
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Mosely got caught too (Tetrahydrogestrinone)


some of my favorite fighters who officially cheated are:

Roy Jones Jr
Vitali Klitschko
James Toney
Tommy Morrison

:-(


It's a difficult subject. There are all kind of people taking all kind of stuff...
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:55 AM   #1730
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

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I love how you pointed out that Tony is a cheater and deserves no respect yet you rank the self-confessed steroid user so high.
There's a huge... Massive difference between using EPO and putting cement in your gloves. It isn't even worth debating.

Margs could have very easily killed someone in there with what he was doing. It is basically THE worst offense you can commit while partaking in this sport.

And, No. 4 on this list is not "so high" for Mosley. He's had an incredible career and easily has an argument for top 3 on this particular list. Obviously, you weren't punishing SMM on your list for PED use, considering you have Morales so high and he tested positive for steroid use. Morales was also rumored to be a heavy cocaine user who may have used the drug before fights (cocaine was rampant in his training camps, allegedly).

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Old 05-21-2013, 05:05 AM   #1731
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

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Mosely got caught too (Tetrahydrogestrinone)


some of my favorite fighters who officially cheated are:

Roy Jones Jr
Vitali Klitschko
James Toney
Tommy Morrison

:-(


It's a difficult subject. There are all kind of people taking all kind of stuff...
Lots of great fighters have been caught with PEDs. Mosley admitted it under oath and never actually tested positive. I believe it was EPO that he took prior to DLH/SMM II. That is what cyclists take for endurance purposes.

Other guys who tested positive for PEDs aside from the ones you listed are Erik Morales, Fernando Vargas, Andre Berto, Lamont Peterson, Antonio Tarver, Orlando Salido...

Sadly, it appears PED use has been rather rampant in this sport, like it is in all sports. Hell, many of these guys who tested positive fought one another.

And, something tells me the list of guys who used PEDs and weren't caught would blow people's minds. It is just a dark side of sports that fans have to learn to deal with. There are lots of gray areas, like some substances becoming illegal over time which fighters used at one time when they were legal, some things being legal in one state and illegal in others, etc. It is a complicated issue.


Using cement in your gloves? That is on a different level of cheating. I'll also note Tito Trinidad was caught using illegal wraps, too. A lot of people think that is in large part what led to his devastating power early in his career and why it seemed to go away as he aged (ie: got caught).

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Old 05-21-2013, 06:26 AM   #1732
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Rba iv said before how highly I think of prime Roy. He would have been number 1 on my list if I was including him and the gap between him and number 2 would be the largest in the list. That said he wasn't in the list. I ranked off of the list provided with the exception of leaving margarito and zane off because I don't think they deserve to be on the list. The Rjj comment was simply because if his timing of coming to boxing really was about 5 years ago he missed one of the truly transcendent talents in all of sports. What lebron is to basketball, prime Rjj was to boxing. An athlete who was just beyond everyone else and with all the video available now there is no reason for a boxing fan to miss seeing that. I'm 27 so rjjs prime coincided with my youth and he will always be my favorite boxer and one of my favorite athletes.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:41 AM   #1733
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
There's a huge... Massive difference between using a PED and putting cement in your gloves. It isn't even worth debating.

Margs could have very easily killed someone in there with what he was doing. It is basically THE worst offense you can commit while partaking in this sport.

And, No. 4 on this list is not "so high" for Mosley. He's had an incredible career and easily has an argument for top 3 on this particular list.



Cheating is cheating man.. You're telling me a boxer who has a hammer in his gloves is more of a cheat than a boxer strong as Hulk? Both are equally unacceptable and there should be no double standards.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:50 AM   #1734
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

As for Mosley's resume:

Leija
De La Hoya (2x) *
Vargas (2x)
Mayorga
Margarito

Mosley had a good career but it's far from "incredible".
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:52 AM   #1735
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz
As for Mosley's resume:

Leija
De La Hoya (2x) *
Vargas (2x)
Mayorga
Margarito

Mosley had a good career but it's far from "incredible".
Who exactly outside of those top 3 comes even close to matching that?
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:13 AM   #1736
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And btw, I'll add that the matches that you win/the names on your resume aren't the only thing that matters. The account you give of yourself in losses and whom you were willing to fight matters too. Ie even if the 4th fight hadn't happened, the PAC/jmm fights would still have added to his legacy even though they were losses and a draw. Same thing with hagler hearns. That fight still adds to hearns legacy(it's the one thing reason I wish Floyd would have made the manny fight happen)
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:26 AM   #1737
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

barrera & morales > mosley, cotto, zab, margarito
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:42 AM   #1738
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderfan19
Who exactly outside of those top 3 comes even close to matching that?

Morales

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Jones
-Kelley

Barrera

-Morales x2
-Hamed
-Tapia
-Ayala

Marquez

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Diaz
-Casamayor

Alright, JMM's resume is fukking weak to be honest and you could argue that Mosley has a better resume but that impressive KO win over Pac tho, it's more impressive than Mosley's victory over Oscar IMO.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:57 AM   #1739
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatlezz
Morales

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Jones
-Kelley

Barrera

-Morales x2
-Hamed
-Tapia
-Ayala

Marquez

-Pacquiao
-Barrera
-Diaz
-Casamayor

Alright, JMM's resume is fukking weak to be honest and you could argue that Mosley has a better resume but that impressive KO win over Pac tho, it's more impressive than Mosley's victory over Oscar IMO.
How? Dlh was at his absolute peak... PAC wasn't even close
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:01 AM   #1740
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

The thing is, all of the 3 Mexican legends and pacs greatness are intertwined because they are all each others best wins/fights
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