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Old 07-10-2013, 11:43 AM   #2131
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

I think Bowe ducked Lennox...Didn't Lennox whoop on him in the amateurs?
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:16 PM   #2132
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

The main reason why the HW is sucking so bad is because there are no prospects. The reason why there are no prospects is because guys that size have other professional options in sports that have lower physical risks and higher financial rewards.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:34 PM   #2133
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32jazz
Do you think the Lewis/Bowe SUPER heavyweights was the beginning(long term) of the end in the Heavyweight division as we know though?

The past few dominant heavyweight champs are these skilled but very huge almost methodical giants that the casual fan find ,well uninspiring.


Not saying that these Supers are not indestructible (Lewis & Klitscho brothers have proven they are beatable) but the supremely active /fit/classic 205/215 lb Heavy seem to be at a disadvantage.

1)With these Super Heavy prospects like Fury, Wider,etc....is it even possible to imagine champs the size of Joe Louis, Mike Tyson,etc...dominating again?Or is just a coincidence that the last 3 dominate fighters were SUPER heavies & I am making too much of fighters huge sizes?


2)Did doing away with the championship rds in 80's take away a little advantage as far as stamina/endurance that smaller fighters can take into later rounds? Fighters don't have to worry about 15 rounds anymore & old school endurance is lacking?

Or
Perhaps there will be another weight class
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:44 PM   #2134
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
Perhaps there will be another weight class

Please no more weight classes.Heavyweight will lose all prestige/meaning if their is a class above.

But I was just wondering whether these Super Heavy weights the reason for the Divisions decline? Is this just a coincidence we have the Klitcshco's /Lewis as the last dominate fighters or can skilled Classic sized Heavyweights reign again?

Did the 15 rounds assist more fit/classic size HWs'?

Just a casual fan who wants perspective from guys who know more about the game.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:49 PM   #2135
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Deontay Wilder!
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:05 PM   #2136
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarik One
The main reason why the HW is sucking so bad is because there are no prospects. The reason why there are no prospects is because guys that size have other professional options in sports that have lower physical risks and higher financial rewards.

Although I guess there are only a few thousand professionals ahletes in the major sports I guess there are TENS of thousands more who concentrate on those sports( not getting punched in the head) & at least play at the collegiate level.


So size & shorter rounds is not the issue ,but lack of skill/talent today? Or is it a combination of all 3?
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:13 PM   #2137
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32jazz
But I was just wondering whether these Super Heavy weights the reason for the Divisions decline? Is this just a coincidence we have the Klitcshco's /Lewis as the last dominate fighters or can skilled Classic sized Heavyweights reign again?
The super heavyweights aren't the reason for the division's decline, it's moreso the lack of American super heavyweights.

And where are these American super heavyweights? They're playing football and basketball.

Seth Mitchell was a decent athlete (by college football standards) who started boxing really late and he turned himself into a solid heavyweight contender. Now imagine someone like Calvin Johnson or Patrick Willis, except you start training them when they were in elementary school rather than in the 20's like Mitchell.

It sucks. If Mike Tyson was reborn today, he'd be playing runningback or linebacker as a teenager. Think about all the potential heavyweight greats we missed out on.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:36 PM   #2138
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash88
I've seen the fight. And you didn't really need to go through the fight and pick out parts where Ike was using his jab well -- you're just reaffirming my point. He had moments in the fight where he was keeping Tua at bay -- that doesn't mean he's a skilled outside boxer. Especially since it's David Tua who he's outboxing.

You're cherrypicking a few moments from one fight and then claiming that it's evidence that a fighter is able to box effectively from the outside. I personally disagree with that assessment.
Well, you laughed at the notion that he showed skill as a boxer from the outside. That's why I went through the first couple rounds and pointed to a few instances that affirmed what I was saying. It was as much to remind myself that I wasn't crazy and hadn't hallucinated as it was to prove a point.

You are free to disagree with my assessment of Ibeabuchi as a threat to Lewis. It's not necessarily a mainstream position and I expected a little blow back. Still, there is a difference between arguing a point and acting as though it's ludicrous to suggest he had a good jab (he did) and he was a talented offensive fighter from distance (he was).

The only way to study Ibeabuchi's technique is to "cherry pick," because he really had just two fights that meant anything... 17 rounds. Not a lot of video to dissect, there.

The main question with Ibeabuchi was always whether or not he would commit to that style of fight, which he probably never would. That wasn't for lack of skill, though... Just a lack of discipline.

Do I think Ibeabuchi was better than Lewis? No. I'd need to see a lot more from him to make a claim like that.

Do I think he posed a significant threat to Lewis had he kept his sh!t together and would have likely presented a tougher challenge than the other guys he was fighting during that 1997-2000 period like Tua, Michael Grant, Briggs and Golota? There's little doubt in my mind he would have.

I guess we just agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kNicKz
How can you say that? Golota was an extremely athletic and skilled heavyweight. His psych ruined just about all of that. He was far from OK though...dude fought mike tyson, riddick bowe, lennox lewis, etc. He'd wipe the floor with any OK boxer

I was saying he was OK in comparison to the other guys we've discussed here, not in respect to an average boxer. We're talking about the elite guys in the division during a very strong period for heavyweights.

Golota had nice size and was pretty athletic. He was completely insane, though, and not difficult to hit. The guy put up some good fights, but could never get a really major win. Obviously the Bowe fights were a debacle and let's set aside the fact that Lewis absolutely destroyed him for a moment.

He was outboxing Michael Grant for 10 rounds before quitting in the 10th round. He obviously quit against Tyson. The guy just didn't have it inside of him to take that next step.

Any amount of adversity and he folded like a lawn chair. Ibeabuchi may have been completely nuts, but he didn't have that problem.

32jazz... I'll get to your post when I have a minute.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 07-11-2013 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:32 PM   #2139
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
Well, you laughed at the notion that he showed skill as a boxer from the outside. That's why I went through the first couple rounds and pointed to a few instances that affirmed what I was saying. It was as much to remind myself that I wasn't crazy and hadn't hallucinated as it was to prove a point.
I laughed at the fact that you took a few brief moments from one fight against a boxer who can easily be outboxed and used that to argue that Ibeabuchi was some sort of a skilled outside boxer.

And I still find the notion pretty funny. But it's nice that you actually used an actual fight to argue a point instead of Yahoo answers.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:04 AM   #2140
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32jazz
Do you think the Lewis/Bowe SUPER heavyweights was the beginning(long term) of the end in the Heavyweight division as we know though?

The past few dominant heavyweight champs are these skilled but very huge almost methodical giants that the casual fan find ,well uninspiring.


Not saying that these Supers are not indestructible (Lewis & Klitscho brothers have proven they are beatable) but the supremely active /fit/classic 205/215 lb Heavy seem to be at a disadvantage.

1)With these Super Heavy prospects like Fury, Wider,etc....is it even possible to imagine champs the size of Joe Louis, Mike Tyson,etc...dominating again?Or is just a coincidence that the last 3 dominate fighters were SUPER heavies & I am making too much of fighters huge sizes?


2)Did doing away with the championship rds in 80's take away a little advantage as far as stamina/endurance that smaller fighters can take into later rounds? Fighters don't have to worry about 15 rounds anymore & old school endurance is lacking?

Or

That's an interesting perspective I hadn't really considered and it makes some sense. I don't think that's what has made the HW division so unbearable in the last decade, but that would definitely seem to favor big guys carrying a lot of weight.

Then again, you could flip that argument and say the smaller, slicker guys benefit from the 12 round fights in that they can maybe stay away and continue to move around big heavies without having to worry about preserving their energy for those last three rounds.

I'm sure modern nutrition plays into the super heavyweight era when it comes to guys like Lewis and the Klits. The division has always had big guys lingering around.

George Foreman was considered a monster in his day, but in his prime he weighed around 225 at 6-4ish. You take that guy from that time and transport him into the modern boxing world with all of the nutritional benefits that come along with it, he's going to be much bigger and stronger. Same thing with a guy like Ken Norton.

Neither of those guys had the frame of a Lewis, but they weren't cupcakes either.


I have to agree with an above poster that the popularity of boxing with kids coming up today has been a major reason for the decline of the division. Really big, uber-athletic kids in America are playing football or basketball. Boxing has become more of a niche sport than mainstream, unfortunately.

What happens if a few kids like Jadeveon Clowney chooses boxing over football? The landscape would change quite a bit.

Still, you'd expect a couple of those kinds of kids who maybe have fathers into boxing would gravitate toward the sport. We've been waiting for damn near a decade and the cupboard is looking pretty bare.

Someone needs to come along and inject life back into the HW division, because you get a Mike Tyson type sensation knocking people all over the place and the public would be right back to going nuts for boxing. I'm sure it will happen at some point. It may not be an American, though.

No one in this country outside of really hardcore boxing fans even pay attention to HWs anymore. It's pretty sad what has happened.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 07-11-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:08 AM   #2141
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

After years of ducking and hiding, Donaire finally agrees to a rematch with the Raging Bull, who is nearing the age of 40, and has been greatly deteriorating.

After Donaire got a lucky punch, hope Darch pulls in some luck to KO this chicken. Even putting him on the mat once would be great for all the years of ducking.

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Old 07-11-2013, 05:48 AM   #2142
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Not impressed with Tyson Fury....will Deontay Wilder be the next dominant force in HW?
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:54 AM   #2143
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
That's an interesting perspective I hadn't really considered and it makes some sense. I don't think that's what has made the HW division so unbearable in the last decade, but that would definitely seem to favor big guys carrying a lot of weight.

Then again, you could flip that argument and say the smaller, slicker guys benefit from the 12 round fights in that they can maybe stay away and continue to move around big heavies without having to worry about preserving their energy for those last three rounds.

I'm sure modern nutrition plays into the super heavyweight era when it comes to guys like Lewis and the Klits. The division has always had big guys lingering around.

George Foreman was considered a monster in his day, but in his prime he weighed around 225 at 6-4ish. You take that guy from that time and transport him into the modern boxing world with all of the nutritional benefits that come along with it, he's going to be much bigger and stronger. Same thing with a guy like Ken Norton.

Neither of those guys had the frame of a Lewis, but they weren't cupcakes either.


I have to agree with an above poster that the popularity of boxing with kids coming up today has been a major reason for the decline of the division. Really big, uber-athletic kids in America are playing football or basketball. Boxing has become more of a niche sport than mainstream, unfortunately.

What happens if a few kids like Jadeveon Clowney chooses boxing over football? The landscape would change quite a bit.

Still, you'd expect a couple of those kinds of kids who maybe have fathers into boxing would gravitate toward the sport. We've been waiting for damn near a decade and the cupboard is looking pretty bare.

Someone needs to come along and inject life back into the HW division, because you get a Mike Tyson type sensation knocking people all over the place and the public would be right back to going nuts for boxing. I'm sure it will happen at some point. It may not be an American, though.

No one in this country outside of really hardcore boxing fans even pay attention to HWs anymore. It's pretty sad what has happened.

I think what many people don't remember when assessing these massive/explosive modern athletes (Football players especially/specifically) is that these guys don't 'walk around' with that ripped/mass. They aren't trained for endurance & Boxing is the greatest endurance sports perhaps.


Ripped/bulked/explosive NFL players for example:
Ricky Williams was 5'10- 230ish at his training peak ,but when he was out of the the League in less than a year he was 195 lbs. A very stocky & powerful man naturally, but not the 230-40 lb ripped NFL battering ram.



Patrick Willis & Vernon Davis are a ripped 6'1 240ish & 6'4 260ish respectively? If these guys had to train for a FANTASY 15 rounder with lean mean Joe Louis (205), Marciano(200), peak Ali(210-15) or Holmes( 210) they probably won't remain that large.

Like Ricky Williams those are probably not Willis nor Davis 'walk around' weights & when Futch,Ray Arcel,etc....(insert legendary boxing trainer) finishes with them I doubt they would be that large. J Clowney training for 15 rounders will probably not be 280 ish.(Although I do concede there are some naturally huge men).


Heavyweights now train for shorter 8-12 round fights & these overblown light Heavys like James Toney & others can show up for the weigh-in looking 5 months pregnent . But feel they need to bulk up to fight these Super Heaves' & are assured it won't be a 15 round war.


Hell Joe Louis even scheduled a 20 rounder because these guys were lean/mean & confident in endurance(or Louis may have been Confident he would knock the bum Out way before round 20 )

Watching some of these amazing oldschool boxers literally LEAP off the stool for rd 14/15 makes me wonder whether a ripped Patrick Willis /NFL type could make it that far without hugging/surviving.


That was just my 15 round plus theory since these S.Heavyweights seem to begin to thrive after the death of the championship rounds.(Semi- Super Heavy weight like George Foreman was out on his feet & too tired to get up after 8 rds with Ali. Foreman was more exhausted than hurt).


Boxing seems to be going(at least in the States) the way of Horse Racing here with A few big money events(Triple Crown)/select championship fights.

Even if that dominant fighter does come along & cleans out the Division(becomes or chases the undisputed champ) it will probably not save boxing long term. Great attention short term(ie Smarty Jones & other Triple Crown races & chasers), but long term?


I just wonder do people want to see big lumbering Super Heavys methodically jabbing & leaning on one another for 10 rds?

But I do agree with the huge Basketball/Football contracts few want to take a chance or expose their kids to dementia pugilistica(some parents are even rethinking Football). Even if you aren't one of the few Thousand to go Pro at worst you can be 1 of Tens of thousands a chance at a degree/advanced education.

Too bad because I'm just falling in love with the sport.

Last edited by 32jazz : 07-11-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:59 PM   #2144
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Rooting for Canelo to Knock Out Floyd. I love to see Floyd's reaction when he losses his first fight.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:51 PM   #2145
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Default Re: All Purpose Boxing Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebron23
Rooting for Canelo to Knock Out Floyd. I love to see Floyd's reaction when he losses his first fight.
Wont happen though.
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