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Old 06-03-2011, 04:42 PM   #46
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rose
And the new CBA will lower the cap so you can't get CP3.

I thought the latest offer suggested they were raising the cap.

We do have a package of Billups, Fields, #17 Pick, & Douglas just in case CP3 wants to force his way to New York sometime during the season.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:44 PM   #47
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rowe
I thought the latest offer suggested they were raising the cap.

We do have a package of Billups, Fields, #17 Pick, & Douglas just in case CP3 wants to force his way to New York sometime during the season.
That's personally what I feel happens.

Which is why I'm almost hoping for a complete lockout next season.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:44 PM   #48
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rose
Amnesty clause to wipe out a bad contract, to help them meet the new hard cap.

What the owners want is a gradual reduction in cap. And unless the player cave in on, on reduced contracts that won't happen.

According to the definition of the Amnesty clause.

You only wipe out a bad contract to get under the luxury tax, but that contract still has to be paid out. Its nothing more than a buyout.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:46 PM   #49
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rose
Amnesty clause....gradual decline to the hard cap they want. The owners will get what they want. They always do, same in hockey, and baseball. And as we're watching right now...football.

Never underestimate 30 rich old bastards.

Sounds good in theory but unfortunately thats not how it goes. Want proof, just look at what happened the last time there was an opportunity to negotiate the CBA. According to Chad Ford this a list of demands the owners had back in 2005 >>>>>> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...had&id=2062066


1) there would be an age limit of 20 or 21,
2) the maximum length of contracts would be 3 or 4 years,
3) maximum raises in contracts would be 5% and
4) teams would be subjected to a super luxury tax if they exceeded the cap too much.


Of those things here's what they actually got:

1) Age limit of 19
2) Maximum contract length went from 6 years to 5 if goes to new team, and 7 to 6 if goes to new team
3) Raises went from 10% to 8% if go to new team; and 12.5% to 10.5% if re-sign
4) No super luxury tax imposed

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the players slice of the revenue pie was guaranteed at 57% and the formula used to calculate salary cap also went up from 48% to 51% of revenues, raising the amount of money each team could spend on players pretty substantially.

Last edited by 2LeTTeRS : 06-03-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:48 PM   #50
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rowe
According to the definition of the Amnesty clause.

You only wipe out a bad contract to get under the luxury tax, but that contract still has to be paid out. Its nothing more than a buyout.
Which is why savvy GMs(and I'm hoping chicago does this so it's my example)

Backload the **** out of say....a Jason Richardson so Afflalo deal. so they'll be in the luxury tax in a couple years....

And destroy Boozer's contract.

Because as long as you're a future tax payer you can wipe out one.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:50 PM   #51
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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My fear with the new GM is that he's going to make some rookie panic signing this summer - say D'bert for the mid-level - losing our flexibility for the CP3 year and locking us into a really avergae talent for a long period of time.

...and why is this the hate d'Antoni thread....all he's done is get two completely reinvented teams (reinvention 1: Amare-Felt-Chandler; reinvent 2: Melo-Amare-Billups) to the playoffs for the first time in 7 years and plus .500 for the first time in 10.

1. We do have the flexibility to get a Center for the MLE. We have the ability to acquire CP3 + Okafor via trade due to the contracts + assets. The problem is that I dont think CP3 will put his foot down like Carmelo to force his way to New York. Hes not wired like that.

2. D'Antoni needs to go. I think he is a good coach, but he will never win over this fanbase. People question every decision he makes, which only means that even with success that they will still be skeptical if hes the right coach.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Sounds good in theory but unfortunately thats not how it goes. Want proof, just look at what happened the last time there was an opportunity to negotiate the CBA. According to Chad Ford this a list of demands the owners had back in 2005 >>>>>> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...had&id=2062066


1) there would be an age limit of 20 or 21,
2) the maximum length of contracts would be 3 or 4 years,
3) maximum raises in contracts would be 5% and
4) teams would be subjected to a super luxury tax if they exceeded the cap too much.


Of those things here's what they actually got:

1) Age limit of 19
2) Maximum contract length went from 6 years to 5 if goes to new team, and 7 to 6 if goes to new team
3) Raises went from 10% to 8% if go to new team; and 12.5% to 10.5% if re-sign
4) No super luxury tax imposed
And with the economy as it is, and as many franchises as they are bleeding money....you're INSANE if you don't think there's not a hard cap. And with two majors sports now having a hard cap, it's going to happen.

While I don't think 18 or whatever is that Stern's saying are losing money. There are obviously at least a few losing money. In 2005 the economy was better, so they weren't losing nearly as much money.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:54 PM   #53
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rose
Which is why savvy GMs(and I'm hoping chicago does this so it's my example)

Backload the **** out of say....a Jason Richardson so Afflalo deal. so they'll be in the luxury tax in a couple years....

And destroy Boozer's contract.

Because as long as you're a future tax payer you can wipe out one.

Makes a lot of sense too.

Do you guys really want Boozer out that early? That Bulls reporter on RealGM said he heard a lot of people talking about Boozer being dealt or him leaving some way.

Was he that bad for you guys? Maybe I'm still overvaluing him for his 20/10 numbers in Utah.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:54 PM   #54
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rowe
1. We do have the flexibility to get a Center for the MLE. We have the ability to acquire CP3 + Okafor via trade due to the contracts + assets. The problem is that I dont think CP3 will put his foot down like Carmelo to force his way to New York. Hes not wired like that.

Melo didn't do that. Melo knew the CBA was changing and wanted his money without hitting FA. He let Denver know. Denver took everything NY had to offer and that's basically it. Melo situation is kinda the exception. If there wasn't the lockout\CBA changing Melo probably would have played the season out in Denver and just signed with NY. Don't see guy's forcing themselves out of there teams like this year.

Can't see anyway NY get's Chris Paul by trade. Simply don't have the pieces. Doubt NO settles for Fields and picks when they just watched Denver take half there roster if it came down to a trade.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:57 PM   #55
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rose
And with the economy as it is, and as many franchises as they are bleeding money....you're INSANE if you don't think there's not a hard cap. And with two majors sports now having a hard cap, it's going to happen.

While I don't think 18 or whatever is that Stern's saying are losing money. There are obviously at least a few losing money. In 2005 the economy was better, so they weren't losing nearly as much money.

They don't need a hard cap, they need a soft cap that's a lower pct of revenue than the current one and they need lower contracts for players. a hard cap that is currently near the cap they have now doesn't save the lower spenders money. A hard cap is just a negotiating tool. Creating a hard cap that breaks up the Heat of the world costs crappy teams money as it doesn't allow the league to make as much revenue which gives you a lower tv contract, etc...
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:59 PM   #56
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rowe
Makes a lot of sense too.

Do you guys really want Boozer out that early? That Bulls reporter on RealGM said he heard a lot of people talking about Boozer being dealt or him leaving some way.

Was he that bad for you guys? Maybe I'm still overvaluing him for his 20/10 numbers in Utah.
He was godawful. Missed 30+

Sucked shit in the playoffs only had two good games out of...I think 16 played games? Oh was supposedly "injured" then he was healthy against Miami and still sucked shit.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by Rose
And with the economy as it is, and as many franchises as they are bleeding money....you're INSANE if you don't think there's not a hard cap. And with two majors sports now having a hard cap, it's going to happen.

While I don't think 18 or whatever is that Stern's saying are losing money. There are obviously at least a few losing money. In 2005 the economy was better, so they weren't losing nearly as much money.

I hear you, I just know that history doesn't suggest Stern will get most of what he's demanding. I want to enter this profession so I study it religiously. What I've noticed is Stern talks tough like this every time there a CBA is about to expire, and media members and fans eat it up, believing that Stern is this all-powerful dictatorial leader and that the players will yield to anything that he wants.

The problem is that unlike the picture the media portrays, the NBA has a very strong union. Billy Hunter is a solid leader who is not going to bow down to Stern. The NBA is the sports league where the players are more visible than any other sport and because of that it is very much a player-driven league. I don't see huge sweeping changes happening.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:00 PM   #58
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by niko
They don't need a hard cap, they need a soft cap that's a lower pct of revenue than the current one and they need lower contracts for players. a hard cap that is currently near the cap they have now doesn't save the lower spenders money. A hard cap is just a negotiating tool. Creating a hard cap that breaks up the Heat of the world costs crappy teams money as it doesn't allow the league to make as much revenue which gives you a lower tv contract, etc...
That's what Larry Coon thinks happens. Except he thinks luxury tax is much harsher in the new CBA. I just think that for personally reasons, Stern wants the hard cap and will push for it, whereas the Owners want the soft cap like you said. But they'll consider a hard cap a win because they save money.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:05 PM   #59
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
I hear you, I just know that history doesn't suggest Stern will get most of what he's demanding. I want to enter this profession so I study it religiously. What I've noticed is Stern talks tough like this every time there a CBA is about to expire, and media members and fans eat it up, believing that Stern is this all-powerful dictatorial leader and that the players will yield to anything that he wants.

The problem is that unlike the picture the media portrays, the NBA has a very strong union. Billy Hunter is a solid leader who is not going to bow down to Stern. The NBA is the sports league where the players are more visible than any other sport and because of that it is very much a player-driven league. I don't see huge sweeping changes happening.
Here's what I think happens

-Stern gets his hard cap.
-The players keep their money in exchange for a lower cap that all teams gradually move towards, so their contracts aren't "reduced" or whatever. Even though I think if they held out they'd probably get their entire way. But for some reason the players usually meet them in the middle and play through half a season.
-Franchises get the amnesty clause.
-MLE stays, as do exceptions for the veterans with minimum contracts.
-Maximum contract lengths are reduced.

I just don't see the draft age going up, the softer cap being held with the harsher tax penalty, franchises folding/being moved(Although the Hornets may prove me wrong), contracts being reduced, the injury escape happening, or any schedule change.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:23 PM   #60
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Default Re: Donnie Walsh out as Knicks team president. Will just be consultant for 2011-12

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Melo didn't do that. Melo knew the CBA was changing and wanted his money without hitting FA. He let Denver know. Denver took everything NY had to offer and that's basically it. Melo situation is kinda the exception. If there wasn't the lockout\CBA changing Melo probably would have played the season out in Denver and just signed with NY. Don't see guy's forcing themselves out of there teams like this year.

Can't see anyway NY get's Chris Paul by trade. Simply don't have the pieces. Doubt NO settles for Fields and picks when they just watched Denver take half there roster if it came down to a trade.

1. You basically claimed Melo would never leave the Nuggets via trade. Do you think I forgot? You basically argued with Knicks fans for a few months before it happened.

2. Denver got the better end of the deal? We gave you 2 guys who's numbers were elevated due to the system they played in in NY. Wilson Chandler performed poorly, & Gallo is still inconsistent. In return we got back an All Star and an expiring veteran PG.

3. NO can't do much better than NY except for LA. They are in the same situation as Denver, whether you like it or not. Denver could've moved Melo for a better package but no team was willing to step up without assurance Melo would sign an extension to play there. What team is going to mortage their future for Chris Paul if he isnt willing to sign an extension there? We're willing to part with Billups, Fields, #17 Pick, Douglas, Walker, Turiaf and a contract filler for CP3 & Okafor's huge deal. They're not getting anything back when CP3 does leave via Free Agency except for a TE.


I mean seriously, the Nuggets have a nice group of young players with Lawson, Afflalo, Chandler, & Gallo but we're attempting to win a championship in NY in the next 5 years. You're just hoping to stay above water for the next decade in Denver.
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