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Old 06-13-2011, 10:01 AM   #1
bokes15
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Default So... with Dallas winning it all...

... In my mind they restored some order within the league. If Miami had came together through Pat Riley buying a team and instantly breezed to a championship, everyone and their mother would be trying to do the same thing. I think that this proved that a superstar + a balanced team can get it done with the right pieces around him. I feel as though for Toronto to win, this is the route we would have to go because it's unlikely that we could ever convince 3 max level players to join us in the same year. So we'd have to get one (possibly through the draft) and build up the team around him so every position 1-5 is solid + a deep bench. That's the key formula to beating super teams like Miami I think.
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

It still all starts with finding that superstar-level player like Dirk. Right now the Raptors don't even have any All-Stars. It doesn't look like there will be anyone like that for the Raptors in this draft so that's why I'm still all for tanking next season.
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Honestly I think either way of building a team can yield a championship. I'm just hoping there's enough talent in the league top create the type of parity between teams.

Neither team though really built their team solely through the draft and tight money management. Dallas has a payroll almost 50% more than Miami's. So we may be looking at either trying to get a superstar trio/tandem as one blue print or spending massive amounts of money on payroll as another. Then again OKC can and may blow that theory out of the water...
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

I was wrong about Miami this year- I said all year I thought they'd be champions.

I still think that next year they'll be very hard to beat; all the things that their critics said would stop them winning this year will be lessened by the next playoffs- theyíll be a more co-ordinated team having played together for 2 years, their coach will be more proven, and they should have managed to improve the non-big 3 portion of their team. Also, theyíve just had some of the arrogance knocked out of them. Well, there is one flaw that may be just as bad next year as it was this- weíll see if LeBron becomes any better at handling pressure. (Dirk did.)

Even in their first and weakest year together, it took a hell of a team to bring the Heat down. Dallas found them much tougher than the two-time defending champs, but they beat them comprehensively in the end because they really are quite a team from the coaching through to the unstoppable superstar through one hell of a committed and clutch set of supporting players. They were able to stay much calmer under pressure, and that may well have been from their greater trust in each other built up over longer together. A couple of extremely highly-regarded deep teams got thrashed by the Heat in the playoffs, but Dallas are by far the best example of that one-superstar, highly-co-ordinated, deep style of team around at the moment. Theyíll be confident going into next year.

Iím very happy for Dallas and even happier for the league because if the Heat had won in their first year it would have been next to impossible to imagine anyone stopping them in the next few years.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

And Detroit proved you can contend and win without a superstar, so there is hope!
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
If Miami had came together through Pat Riley buying a team and instantly breezed to a championship, everyone and their mother would be trying to do the same thing.

I think one thing blocks other teams from trying to copy the Miami big-three approach- the fact that there arenít any other players in the world who could create a big three of similar quality who can challenge now and for several years. The best I can come up with is Howard-Durant-Paul, and even that I donít think is as good as Wade-James-Bosh. When you have the two best players in the world, itís very hard for any team to catch you. Stupid organisations will try, like the Knicks, but you arenít building any Heat-level Big 3 when 2 of the 3 are Amare and Carmelo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluerap
And Detroit proved you can contend and win without a superstar, so there is hope!

Not only is the Detroit example an extremely rare exception to the rule, it's probably harder to create a mid-00s Pistons style team than a one superstar or even a big-three setup. They had 5 all-star level players. To get to that level, the Raptors just need to pick up, letís see, 5 more all-star level players. Then, with a starting line-up of unbelievably rare consistent quality, they have to play as well as a team as just about any group ever has.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Night_Elf
Honestly I think either way of building a team can yield a championship. I'm just hoping there's enough talent in the league top create the type of parity between teams.

Neither team though really built their team solely through the draft and tight money management. Dallas has a payroll almost 50% more than Miami's. So we may be looking at either trying to get a superstar trio/tandem as one blue print or spending massive amounts of money on payroll as another. Then again OKC can and may blow that theory out of the water...
Oh yeah. I'm also sure that both styles can work. However, if Miami had won it this year I think many people would have more doubt in a team built like Dallas being able to get it done. I know I would.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:15 PM   #8
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

What I'm really hoping now is the new CBA guts some of the exemptions so that the Heat actually can't improve their bench much this offseason. Then we might be on our way to the epic fail to end all epic fails. Miami's bench just wasn't good enough, and Dallas didn't even have Butler!

Superstar + complimentary depth always has been the most consistent winning formula, and I hope this year helps it stay that way.

Also, as an aside, IMO Lebron needs to win at least 8 championships in his career to make up for his miserable finals performances so far if he EVER wants to even enter into the MJ discussion (sorry Pippen) since MJ closed out every title shot he got, and never had wingmen with the tallent level of Bosh and Wade. From a purely nostalgic perspective, that is awesome.
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMason
What I'm really hoping now is the new CBA guts some of the exemptions so that the Heat actually can't improve their bench much this offseason. Then we might be on our way to the epic fail to end all epic fails. Miami's bench just wasn't good enough, and Dallas didn't even have Butler!

Superstar + complimentary depth always has been the most consistent winning formula, and I hope this year helps it stay that way.

Also, as an aside, IMO Lebron needs to win at least 8 championships in his career to make up for his miserable finals performances so far if he EVER wants to even enter into the MJ discussion (sorry Pippen) since MJ closed out every title shot he got, and never had wingmen with the tallent level of Bosh and Wade. From a purely nostalgic perspective, that is awesome.

thats the crazy part about this dallas team. No butler or haywood. They did not have two of their main players yet they still won.

in terms of lebron winning at least 8, winning 5 with this heat team would equal to winning one with the cavs.
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by keantona
Not only is the Detroit example an extremely rare exception to the rule, it's probably harder to create a mid-00s Pistons style team than a one superstar or even a big-three setup. They had 5 all-star level players. To get to that level, the Raptors just need to pick up, let’s see, 5 more all-star level players. Then, with a starting line-up of unbelievably rare consistent quality, they have to play as well as a team as just about any group ever has.

With all due respect - thats a bit of retro vision. Thats not the way it was in 1999.

Chanucey Billups was considered an under performer having played out stints in Minny and Toronto before landing in Detroit. Dumars recongnized something.

RIP and Tay were cornerstone pieces developed by the Pistons. No one was calling them Jordon and Pippen - they just grew up together winning.

Rasheed was a "rehab" project.

Big Ben was what they got back by fluke when they lost their "franchise player" (incidently the "NEXT Michael Jordon") in Grant Hill to Orlando.

The drafted Darko as the "5 of the future" to cement depth.

Its not all luck and its not all "hard" or impossible. You have to get a cornerstone of players the franchise developes internally and teach them to win and play as a team. Then you add the pieces that will make you incrementally better without upseting the teams "culture"

Detroit made 2 finals (1 win) and "multiple forays - 2 and 3 rounds into the playoffs"


I might argue that San Antonio was built on the exact same model - except that TDunc is perhaps the greatest power forward to ever play the game and is a sure fire Hall of Famer. They did surround with talent - but a lot of that talent "I think" vastly exceeded expectations under good management and good coaching. Did anyone really expect Tony Parker to be "that good" when drafted as a euro born player???

Or was he drafted to hide a pick off the salary cap for a year or so???

If your city name is NOT New York, LA, Chicago, Miami, Boston, Phoenix, Dallas, or Houston..... building based on the "Dumars way" may be the only way.

Last edited by Jballer : 06-13-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

^^ Yeah, that's what i'm saying. Even though we are kind of in a big market city, we aren't a high profile basketball team. Therefore I don't see any superstars saying screw my team, I want to jump ship and form a superteam in Toronto. So it's looking like our best and most realistic route is to spend the next few seasons acquiring high draft picks, hopefully drafting a guy with superstar potential, and some all-star potential pieces around him... Which requires diligence and intelligence, but also a little luck. And then once you have that core (ex. Durant, Westbrook, Harden/Iblocka) then you go out and trade for veteran pieces to surround that core so that you can make a legit title run.
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Old 06-15-2011, 05:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Night_Elf
Honestly I think either way of building a team can yield a championship. I'm just hoping there's enough talent in the league top create the type of parity between teams.

Neither team though really built their team solely through the draft and tight money management. Dallas has a payroll almost 50% more than Miami's. So we may be looking at either trying to get a superstar trio/tandem as one blue print or spending massive amounts of money on payroll as another. Then again OKC can and may blow that theory out of the water...

Agreed, Cuban spent alot of dough on that team, but before the raptors can build a contender the league needs to take care of the salary cap. Correct me if I m wrong but aren't some elite teams somewhere in the ball park of $70-95 million?
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:13 AM   #13
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himan12
Agreed, Cuban spent alot of dough on that team, but before the raptors can build a contender the league needs to take care of the salary cap. Correct me if I m wrong but aren't some elite teams somewhere in the ball park of $70-95 million?

Yup. Top 4 highest salaries are as followed;
Lakers 91+ Mill
Dallas just a bit under 91 Mil
Orland0 just a bit over 89 Mil
Boston 83+ Mil

Bottom 4;
Clevland 53+ Mil
Wolves just a bit over 53 Mil
Clippers 52+ Mil
Kings just a bit over 44 Mil.

Toronto is 13th with 69 and a have Mil and Miami is 17th at just a shade under 67. This is why for all the ripping done on Miami the claiming of them trying to buy a championship as a short cut may not be deserved...
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

The ripping done on Miami is not because of their overall salary cap but rather because of how top heavy they are. You have Bosh/Bron at 14.5M, Wade at 14M. Miller/Haslem/Anthony at about 11M combined. And everyone else making a vets minimum. Dallas does have huge salary commitments (or they did this season) but outside of Dirk himself, it was more evenly distributed. But anyways it's neither here nor there. The benefit of such a move for them was an instant shot at a championship. And the disadvantage is that they can't really make any big moves unless they want to get rid of a member of the big 3.
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: So... with Dallas winning it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
The ripping done on Miami is not because of their overall salary cap but rather because of how top heavy they are. You have Bosh/Bron at 14.5M, Wade at 14M. Miller/Haslem/Anthony at about 11M combined. And everyone else making a vets minimum. Dallas does have huge salary commitments (or they did this season) but outside of Dirk himself, it was more evenly distributed. But anyways it's neither here nor there. The benefit of such a move for them was an instant shot at a championship. And the disadvantage is that they can't really make any big moves unless they want to get rid of a member of the big 3.

Yup. And if they get rid of the MLE in teh next CBA...DUN! DUN! BWAAA!
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