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Old 06-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #1
fatboy11
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Default Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Like, we're fans. We like to run off at the mouth like we know what we're talking about, but at the end of the day, we're just people sitting in front of a computer.

But these GMs - they get paid a lot of money to make good decisions. And more than a few of them aren't doing that. And we let them have it because of that. And sometimes, I think to myself - "I'm really not qualified to question this person's decision making, but that was a horrible move."

I'm bring this up because I'm seeing teams try to get rid of guys they JUST signed last summer. I see the Spurs trying to ditch Jefferson on whatever team wants Tony Parker. I see the Bucks trying to unload Corey Maggette.

Why are the Bucks paying Maggette so much damn money? He's been a flake his entire career. He definitely has a role in the league, but no one should be paying the guy upwards of 10 million a year. Same with Drew Gooden. Is that really a guy you want to have locked into a long-term contract? Is it? He's another flake.

What the hell was Denver thinking with Al Harrington? I just don't get it. Kapono's contract is expiring this season at like 7 million dollars. Really? Does the person to agreed to that still have a job?

This is why I don't feel a damn bit sorry for these owners in the CBA negotiations. They employ idiots that do stuff like this. How did it get this way? How did guys that have no business getting this kind of money start getting this overpaid? The owners did this to themselves by hiring people that make horrible decisions. If a fan can see it as a bad decision from a mile away, why can't an NBA GM?
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?



"But but but my daddy says I'm smart!"
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

NBA GM's forgot more about basketball while sitting on the toilet this morning than most fans will ever know.

Fans have the advantage of looking at deals in hindsight and saying how good/bad they were. They're not called on to make decisions in real time and have their job hanging in the balance.

It's time consuming to go back through threads and find all the places an individual poster was incredibly stupid. Not so hard to analyze every GM's comment/decision.

They only appear dumb to those that are deluding themselves in a fantasy world where they actually know something.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

DIDN'T READ, OTIS SMITH?
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
NBA GM's forgot more about basketball while sitting on the toilet this morning than most fans will ever know.

Fans have the advantage of looking at deals in hindsight and saying how good/bad they were. They're not called on to make decisions in real time and have their job hanging in the balance.

It's time consuming to go back through threads and find all the places an individual poster was incredibly stupid. Not so hard to analyze every GM's comment/decision.

They only appear dumb to those that are deluding themselves in a fantasy world where they actually know something.

So, you're telling me that giving Corey Maggette a contract like that was a sound move? Tons of fans called that dumb at the time and now they're trying to get rid of him. Same thing with Jefferson, Harrington, Jason Kapono, Matt Carroll, Brian Cardinal, Jerome James, etc. I'm not saying they're dumb because they mess up occasionally. I'm clearly saying they're dumb for doing things that are so clearly dumb, it's beyond belief. I'm not talking about signing a guy and it just doesn't pan out but the guy was a good signing. I'm talking the "what are they doing?" type of signings that never end up working out that even fans can see from a mile away.

Did you even even read what I wrote? I acknowledged that fans don't know what they're talking about.

I'm not talking about hindsight perspective here. I'm talking about real time, "that is a dumbass move" perspective. They frequently do things that so obviously have failure written all over them. They overpay mediocre players so they can get them and then the owners whine about salaries being out of control.

Last edited by fatboy11 : 06-23-2011 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Part of it's market value. If you give one guy a bad contract on the level of say Matt Carroll, Diop gets one too, then Kapono, then Jerome James etc etc.

Same thing happens in baseball.

Then part of it is just being a dumbass, as in also Matt Carroll, or Darko Milocic, Joe Johnson etc etc. They paid them KNOWING they weren't worth that much money, but spent it because they had it. Which really really ruins the NBA, and a lot of sports.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
So, you're telling me that giving Corey Maggette a contract like that was a sound move? Tons of fans called that dumb at the time and now they're trying to get rid of him. Same thing with Jefferson, Harrington, Jason Kapono, Matt Carroll, Brian Cardinal, Jerome James, etc. I'm not saying they're dumb because they mess up occasionally. I'm clearly saying they're dumb for doing things that are so clearly dumb, it's beyond belief. I'm not talking about signing a guy and it just doesn't pan out but the guy was a good signing. I'm talking the "what are they doing?" type of signings that never end up working out that even fans can see from a mile away.

Did you even even read what I wrote? I acknowledged that fans don't know what they're talking about.

Make the call on the deals when they're done...not after the results are in...and your argument would have at least a bit of validity.

GM's have owners to deal with. Just like any boss, there are times you've got to go feed the boss' wants/needs. They also have salary cap issues to deal with, along with internal finance. I've seen enough of the posts here to know that VERY few posters really underdtand the cap and, unless you're inside, there's no way to understand yhe full financial situation.

I guarantee Dallas would say every penny spent on Cardinal was a good investment based solely on what he did in the Finals.

I would love to see the typical ISH poster run a team. Hell, even a concensus of the "best minds" on the site. They'd win fewer than the Washington Generals.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
NBA GM's forgot more about basketball while sitting on the toilet this morning than most fans will ever know.

Fans have the advantage of looking at deals in hindsight and saying how good/bad they were. They're not called on to make decisions in real time and have their job hanging in the balance.

It's time consuming to go back through threads and find all the places an individual poster was incredibly stupid. Not so hard to analyze every GM's comment/decision.

They only appear dumb to those that are deluding themselves in a fantasy world where they actually know something.


i think u give them way too much credit.

altho i do agree at least that they are ultimately responsible in making that tough decision which is easier to call them out on, than random posters.

but its also i think they have to battle their owners wishes, along with their coaches. Like i don't think Walsh was responsible for everything going on in NY, or releasing Brewer lets say, more than D Antoni and maybe Dolan. but he gets the brunt of the blame for it since he's the GM.

one of the biggest fiasco's i've ever seen was when the Sun's tried to completely change their playstyle around to slow down that half season where it failed miserably. i think that may have been on the owner as well. But i've never seen such amateur, almost retarded, management of a team, and prior to that relatively successful team considering they reached semi's and made playoffs 2/4 years....

ultimately i think GM's like other 'professionals', are a bit exaggerated in how great they must be to be 'professionals' and in that position, from the perspective of the masses. i mean when George Bush can become Prez, the highest most esteemed job in our country, then you look at the perception of how most people look at people in high positions pretending they all deserve it and MUSt know what they're doing/talking about, i think its the infallible perceptions they must know a lot more thats the problem. I don't think they do, and a lot of it is subjective.
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

There is the Larry Brown way of thinking - GMs are only going to be there 5-6 years, so during the first 3-4 years of a long term contract the guy can play, but during those last 2-3 years you'll be gone anyway when the guy is beat up and old, so what difference does it make to you (you in the general sense)?

That's why the new CBA has to limit contracts to 4 years for regular contracts and 2 years for extensions and then MLEs to 3 years (with 2 year extensions after that).
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
Make the call on the deals when they're done...not after the results are in...and your argument would have at least a bit of validity.

I did!!!!! All of those moves that I mentioned were dumb at the time and dumb now. It was all over this board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
GM's have owners to deal with. Just like any boss, there are times you've got to go feed the boss' wants/needs. They also have salary cap issues to deal with, along with internal finance. I've seen enough of the posts here to know that VERY few posters really underdtand the cap and, unless you're inside, there's no way to understand yhe full financial situation.

Are you "inside"? If not, how do you make that comment? How does giving Maggette 10 million a year make sense in any perspective?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
I guarantee Dallas would say every penny spent on Cardinal was a good investment based solely on what he did in the Finals.

Well, no shit. He made the veteran's minimum. I'm CLEARLY talking about the contract he got from Memphis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
I would love to see the typical ISH poster run a team. Hell, even a concensus of the "best minds" on the site. They'd win fewer than the Washington Generals.

Completely irrelevant. The point was NEVER that posters were smarter than GMs. Again, did you even read the OP?
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmsupra
DIDN'T READ, OTIS SMITH?

I think i can be a better Gm than this guy No hindsight needed, this guy every move he makes is just horrible. I think the Magic fans should demand he makes his moves public before pulling the trigger so they can approve or disaprove of them
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Old 06-23-2011, 12:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
I did!!!!! All of those moves that I mentioned were dumb at the time and dumb now. It was all over this board.


Pointing out a move here and a move there by different franchises means nothing. A managem ent team has to make hundreds of decisions in the course of doing business. I don't care what business you look at, in what sector; if they're going to be measured by their wortst one or two moves, they're always going to look bad.

I'm proud that you were all over the board on thaose moves. Now, if you had to make those decisons to sustain your lifestyle, feed your family, and maintain your career vs possibly looking foolish on a message board where nobody knows or cares who you are? That kind of pressure and scrutiny has a definite impact on the decision making process.

A poster mentioned the Suns, who had been advancing in the playoffs but couldn't get over the hump. They made a bad strategic move in bringing in Shaq and attempting to adoipt a slower style. What we don't know is whether that's brought about by an owner who says "getting close isn't good enough. Our style isn't getting it done. Change or lose your job." Or maybe they realized they have an aging PG and little else, and figured the window was closing.

In any case, that same management team brought in Grant Hill, which has been an incredibly smart move (and one I'm sure was roundly criticized due to his age and health); dumped a few guys who turned out to be stiffs outside of their system for Dudley, who was a throw-in steal; got rid of Stou_emire, who I believe will age very poorly; etc.

If you have to make decisions that can be impacted by hundreds of variables (health, desire, ability to mesh on the court and in the locker room, and many more) some are going to be great and some are going to be awful. The majority will be right in the middle.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMT
Pointing out a move here and a move there by different franchises means nothing. A managem ent team has to make hundreds of decisions in the course of doing business. I don't care what business you look at, in what sector; if they're going to be measured by their wortst one or two moves, they're always going to look bad.

I'm proud that you were all over the board on thaose moves. Now, if you had to make those decisons to sustain your lifestyle, feed your family, and maintain your career vs possibly looking foolish on a message board where nobody knows or cares who you are? That kind of pressure and scrutiny has a definite impact on the decision making process.

A poster mentioned the Suns, who had been advancing in the playoffs but couldn't get over the hump. They made a bad strategic move in bringing in Shaq and attempting to adoipt a slower style. What we don't know is whether that's brought about by an owner who says "getting close isn't good enough. Our style isn't getting it done. Change or lose your job." Or maybe they realized they have an aging PG and little else, and figured the window was closing.

In any case, that same management team brought in Grant Hill, which has been an incredibly smart move (and one I'm sure was roundly criticized due to his age and health); dumped a few guys who turned out to be stiffs outside of their system for Dudley, who was a throw-in steal; got rid of Stou_emire, who I believe will age very poorly; etc.

If you have to make decisions that can be impacted by hundreds of variables (health, desire, ability to mesh on the court and in the locker room, and many more) some are going to be great and some are going to be awful. The majority will be right in the middle.

That's the type of answer I'm looking for. Not that this "you don't know anything, they know more than you do" bullshit that I got out of the way in the first post.....

If you could have just said something like that from the start, instead of making this GM vs. internet poster (which I clearly tried to avoid), this thread would have run more smoothly. But I guess every thread needs a jackass to stir stuff up.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
I would love to see the typical ISH poster run a team. Hell, even a concensus of the "best minds" on the site. They'd win fewer than the Washington Generals.

No they wouldnt. a lot of the job is just common sense, luck, and situaiton, Like if I were running the cavs in 03 id have taken anyone but Lebron...

These arent teams that are blank slates to build. If you hand me or most of us the...Nuggets. What do you think happens? The team has players set. Good coach. Eventually we would have to choose who to resign but we would have the owner, coaches, and players opinions to consider. Not left out on our own. If George Karl says "I need ___ on this team...lets try to keep him" what am I gonna tell him to **** off?

It takes YEARS for a GMs actions to really make or break a franchise outside the major overnight rebuilds. And even then you have a huge staff to lean on.

Give me the Heat...they win plenty of games the next 5-6 years and perhaps some rings. Give me the Bobcats...eh. Who knows?

Gms are victims of what they have to work with as much as anyone else. Some of them barely make any moves at all.

I could pick a coach out of a grabbag and likely do...decently if I had a team in place. Or do what so many of the mdo...wait till the end of the year and sign an assistant the league is high on from a finals team.

GMs make the big calls...at least have a say in them with the owners and coaches. But they dont really have to figure out who is good and who sucks. They have scouts, coaches, and common knowledge to lean on.

There is probably more to learn about keeping all the egos in check than basketball. You dont need to know the game terribly well to pick who your 11 scouts are raving about. Or to know a well known coach knows a thing or two. Or to call someone and ask about an assistant the league has beentalking about for 10 years.

These guys arent working alone.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 06-23-2011 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Why do some GMs appear to be so dumb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
No they wouldnt. a lot of the job is just common sense, luck, and situaiton, Like if I were running the cavs in 03 id have taken anyone but Lebron...

These arent teams that are blank slates to build. If you hand me or most of us the...Nuggets. What do you think happens? The team has players set. Good coach. Eventually we would have to choose who to resign but we would have the owner, coaches, and players opinions to consider. Not left out on our own. If George Karl says "I need ___ on this team...lets try to keep him" what am I gonna tell him to **** off?

It takes YEARS for a GMs actions to really make or break a franchise outside the major overnight rebuilds. And even then you have a huge staff to lean on.

Give me the Heat...they win plenty of games the next 5-6 years and perhaps some rings. Give me the Bobcats...eh. Who knows?

Gms are victims of what they have to work with as much as anyone else. Some of them barely make any moves at all.

I could pick a coach out of a grabbag and likely do...decently if I had a team in place. Or do what so many of the mdo...wait till the end of the year and sign an assistant the league is high on from a finals team.

GMs make the big calls...at least have a say in them with the owners and coaches. But they dont really have to figure out who is good and who sucks. They have scouts, coaches, and common knowledge to lean on.

There is probably more to learn about keeping all the egos in check than basketball. You dont need to know the game terribly well to pick who your 11 scouts are raving about. Or to know a well known coach knows a thing or two. Or to call someone and ask about an assistant the league has beentalking about for 10 years.

These guys arent working alone.

So, basically, I should have rephrased to "NBA front offices" instead of NBA GMs? I can see where you're coming from.
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