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Old 07-01-2011, 06:34 PM   #196
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzuki
actually he showed unbelievable effort and heart last season, you're still judging him by prior to last season. if anything he was motivated, and played his ass off on a team going nowhere, but it was more a team motivated thing than just JJ, altho i'd say he was a leader in that regard or inspiration to work hard to get wins.

if anything i thought he played decent D last year, and at the very least with a lot of effort playing the Center spot, altho he was overmatched against very tall freak centers, but thats most big men who aren't freaks it seems.


him and scott clashed fairly frequently due to his lack of commitment and effort

http://www.hoopsnotes.com/teams/clev...on-after-game/
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Old 07-01-2011, 07:28 PM   #197
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Default Re: Hickson for Casspi? Advanced talks

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Originally Posted by jbryan1984
Ehhh. I would not say that. He is still only 22, crazier things have happened in the NBA. He has improved every year he has been in the league and has shown explosiveness at times, it just needs to be consistent. Still, I would not be happy trading JJ straight up for Casspi. Give me Casspi and Greene or Casspi and Thompson, I might be a little happier.

Don't be ashamed to say he could be a star......it's true. not a superstar but possibly an all star. Hickson played 7 minutes/game less than Al Horford and had similar stats last season. He is a guy that can face up and actually play with his back t the basket. if they can get a nice veteran pg who can run the offense and stick the open jumper, Sacramento will be tough!
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Old 07-01-2011, 07:52 PM   #198
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

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Originally Posted by LaysUpBricks
The Kings traded Udrih away because even though he is a great facilitator, albeit the best on the Kings, he couldn't defend anybody. Hence why they traded for John Salmons who can consistently defend on the wing and hit open jump shots. He knows he's being brought in for that, and he knows he doesn't have to create on offense.

Jimmer isn't going to be the starting PG, it's going to be Evans. And Evans is a good defender when he has been healthy. He wasn't healthy at all last season. Thornton would be starting at SG and he's underrated at the defensive end.

As for the draft, the Kings said so themselves that even if they were still picking at 7, they wouldn't have picked Knight. He has great potential but they don't want to wait around for him to develop because they are attempting to win now. Knight has a huge problem just driving to his left and that didn't go over well with the team officials.

As for the move of Hickson, it's not like they added him to be a creator on offense. They added him to create some havoc on the offensive rim. The Kings are still looking to add another center, and if it's a big name, there's no guarantee Hickson even sees over 20 minutes a night.




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Old 07-01-2011, 10:49 PM   #199
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

I really like both these guys. If you're looking to build a team with young talent you could do a lot worse. Casspi especially I like. Tall, athletic, smart, can shoot. Hickson's got some talent; it would have been interesting to see him with Nash.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:18 PM   #200
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Default Re: Hickson for Casspi? Advanced talks

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Originally Posted by mrhoopfan
Don't be ashamed to say he could be a star......it's true. not a superstar but possibly an all star. Hickson played 7 minutes/game less than Al Horford and had similar stats last season. He is a guy that can face up and actually play with his back t the basket. if they can get a nice veteran pg who can run the offense and stick the open jumper, Sacramento will be tough!

lol, Horford with no D is NOT a good player.

and for those saying it, Fredette was brought in to be the PG so Evans doesn't have to play it. Not that it really matters, but that's the plan I'm pretty sure.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:25 PM   #201
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaysUpBricks
The Kings traded Udrih away because even though he is a great facilitator, albeit the best on the Kings, he couldn't defend anybody. Hence why they traded for John Salmons who can consistently defend on the wing and hit open jump shots. He knows he's being brought in for that, and he knows he doesn't have to create on offense.

Jimmer isn't going to be the starting PG, it's going to be Evans. And Evans is a good defender when he has been healthy. He wasn't healthy at all last season. Thornton would be starting at SG and he's underrated at the defensive end.

As for the draft, the Kings said so themselves that even if they were still picking at 7, they wouldn't have picked Knight. He has great potential but they don't want to wait around for him to develop because they are attempting to win now. Knight has a huge problem just driving to his left and that didn't go over well with the team officials.

As for the move of Hickson, it's not like they added him to be a creator on offense. They added him to create some havoc on the offensive rim. The Kings are still looking to add another center, and if it's a big name, there's no guarantee Hickson even sees over 20 minutes a night.

Udrih actually isn't a great facilitator, but he's extremely efficient and more PG skills than Fredette or Evans. I'm pretty sure Fredette was brought in to be the PG so Evans doesn't have to play it. Salmons can not consistently defend anyone and he won't settle for a role shooting spot up jumpers. He's not good at it and he'll pout and won't try on D if he doesn't get shots. Thompson is the only top 7 player who can defend, maybe Tyreke if he keeps working at it, but its hard for your to scorer to also have to defend the other teams best G. That means Fredette or Thornton gets that role most of the time, yeesh. They will really miss Dalembert if they lose him. His defensive metrics are usually amonsgst the best in the league and he and Casspi were their 2 best defenders. Like I said too though, Honeycutt will help. This kid was 11th on the Hollinger draft rater and that thing is rarely that off for a guy like Honeycutt.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:34 PM   #202
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

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Originally Posted by Godzuki
the way they're trying to portray him i don't know how you can pretend to meet a middle point. i don't think most of us are exaggerating how good he is, nobody has said he's a all star or star even, but i think someone could easily make that argument. when the critics are saying Casspi could be considered better, how JJ only put up numbers because of a team going nowhere in blowout losses, comparing him to Walter Hermann, and you're going to meet them in the middle?

whatever. a lot of people here are clueless when they don't watch, or if they do just have poor observational skills. i wish this thread could stay stickied to the end of the next season....

Yeah, I agree with you here. Those acting as though Hickson is some bench-warming scrub who is unworthy of even being discussed as a new addition to any team are completely off-base. I would say that he was a middle-of-the-road starting 4 in this league last season, which is actually pretty good for a 22-year-old.

Now, it also helped him statistically that he was basically the focal point for the team (however bad it may have been), but he is no slouch.

If you are saying that he is maybe the 15th best 4 in the NBA, I might be on board with that. Maybe that is a little high, but it isn't blasphemy. He had a matchup advantage against the opposing team about half of the time last year, I would estimate.

His defense also isn't as horrendous as some are saying. Well, let me clarify... It is often horrendous, but it isn't due to a lack of skill or slow feet or anything that can never be corrected... It is just his penchant for falling asleep often on both ends of the floor.

If he can ever get around his inconsistencies and his mental lapses, he could vault into the Top 15. That is a big 'if,' though.

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Old 07-02-2011, 02:22 AM   #203
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
You said that Hickson put up numbers against teams who weren't trying because they were blowing out the Cavs. That is just flat-out untrue. Now, you have molded your argument into something different... That teams didn't care because it was the end of the season.

Just so we know, for future reference... Which games 'count' and which don't? Are the only games that counted for JJ last year the ones early in the season before the trade when the team was in total disarray? That seems more than a little unfair for a 22-year-old player and I was never the biggest proponent of JJ Hickson.

Just picking out a different random month during the course of the season, here are some numbers that he put up...

PHI (loss 95-91) - 22 points (9-15), 16 rebounds
NYK (win 115-109) - 24 points (9-17), 15 rebounds
LAC (win 126-119) - 27 points (12-19), 14 rebounds
DET (loss 103-94) - 18 points (8-12), 15 rebounds
DAL (win 99-96) - 26 points (12-18), 12 rebounds
MEM (loss 112-105) - 31 points (11-21), 15 rebounds
WAS (loss 115-110) - 16 points (7-18), 13 rebounds
LAL (win 104-99) - 13 points (6-18), 15 rebounds


Those eight games make up the majority of his play for the month of February. There are some good teams mixed in there, they weren't all total blowouts and they weren't at the end of the season when, by your logic, no one cares.

How can these be explained?

You are the one pointing out his play in april buddy. I'm not molding my argument into something different. My criticism of his april performance is very valid, a lot of teams are simply out of the running at that point.

Just concede, don't shift the argument around like a little punk.

I'm not the one bringing up stretches of his play, I'm completely fine with simply going with every game as a measuring stick. Which means his numbers were 14ppg, 9rpg on 45% shooting as a low post player, on a very very bad team with very limited other options.

You can cherry pick his greatest games or stretches of the season all you want, but the bottom line is that Hickson is not the greatest anything in this league. At best he is slightly above the very worst starting PFs in the league, in the 20-25 range of starting PFs. At best.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:29 PM   #204
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

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Originally Posted by LJJ
Hickson is not the greatest anything in this league.
Now, if you would kindly point me to the section of my post (any of my posts) where I offered up the idea that JJ was 'the best' anything. I've made my position pretty clear. I said that he is a middle-of-the-road starting PF in this league. You say he is around the 20-25th 'best' starting 4 in the NBA...

Of course, your argument was null and void when you made the Walter Hermann comparison. You are all over the place. Is he a mediocre starting 4 or is he Walter Hermann, who was never a starting caliber player at any point in his career? Hell, Hermann's career lasted only, what? Three years? Hickson is already ahead of him, there.

It was a silly comparison. The sooner you admit that the better. In the 20-25 range for starting PFs is not unreasonable and I wouldn't even disagree (that is pretty much what I've been saying all along).
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:34 PM   #205
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

Wasn't Hickson dropping about 18 and 10 the last month or so of the season, dumb move by Cavs imo
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:34 PM   #206
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

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Wasn't Hickson dropping about 18 and 10 the last month or so of the season
That doesn't count. Please follow the conversation closely... And, it was actually 20/12 in the last month.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:36 PM   #207
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

I used Walter Herrmann to point out that great production in april, on a horrible team, is completely meaningless. That doesn't say anything about a player.

So yes, Herrmann is terrible. That was exactly my point genius.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:42 PM   #208
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

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Originally Posted by LJJ
I used Walter Herrmann to point out that great production in april, on a horrible team, is completely meaningless. That doesn't say anything about a player.

So yes, Herrmann is terrible. That was exactly my point genius.
It was a really dumb point... Which is why I followed it up by pointing out another really great month that Hickson had earlier in the season.

When a player has multiple great months in a single season, doesn't the Hermann/April comparison go out the window?

Look, if you are saying that Hickson is on a level of terrible comparable with Walter Hermann in any way, shape or form, you are off-base. Period. Not much more to say.

I'm quite certain that the rest of the board would agree with me.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:48 PM   #209
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Default Re: TRADE! Kings trade Omri Casspi, pick to Cavaliers for JJ Hickson

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
It was a really dumb point... Which is why I followed it up by pointing out another really great month that Hickson had earlier in the season.

When a player has multiple great months in a single season, doesn't the Hermann/April comparison go out the window?

Look, if you are saying that Hickson is on a level of terrible comparable with Walter Hermann in any way, shape or form, you are off-base. Period. Not much more to say.

I'm quite certain that the rest of the board would agree with me.

I didn't compare him to Hermann. I only referenced his april production, period. Stop drawing up straw men. It's logical that production in april against teams that are tanking is a meaningless anomaly at best, that you don't understand this very simple logic is completely on you. It's the exact same reasoning that applies to pre-season games being meaningless.

The point is this: If Hickson was exceptionally good for long stretches? Those games all factor in his total season averages as well. So why do you have to cherry pick his numbers? His averages are a good benchmark for his performance this season. Which was less that stellar. 14 points on 45% from the low post? Really? That's something to get excited about? On the worst team in the league? Get out of here.

Last edited by LJJ : 07-02-2011 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:09 PM   #210
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Default Re: Hickson for Casspi? Advanced talks

JJ Hickson is the best PF named JJ in the league.
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