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Old 07-05-2011, 01:48 PM   #16
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs4toniee
Aside from a few exceptions like Mark Cuban who views his team as more of a play-toy for a super fan, the NBA from a owners standpoint is ultimately a business. Let's say the NHL's popularity did never recover. Regardless of popularity, if the majority of teams are now operating at a profit versus a loss before the lockout, then the owners win in the long-run. The same thing applies in this case. The ultimate goal is to make money off of your organization.

If the popularity wanes immediately after the lock-out, but the teams that were operating for years at a loss now break even or start making profit and end up having a more equal chance of winning against big market teams, then from the owners stand-point it's a win. The main problem that many fans have is that they view it from a fans standpoint.

The ultimate goal is supposed to be winning a title. Year to year profitability is not guaranteed in any sport but for the most part all the owners are able to see huge profit when they eventually sell the team.

Look at the Yankees. They are one of the most profitable teams in sports, yet they are willing to put all that profit right back into the team if it means winning another title. Their ultimate goal is winning and because they put out a great product every year their customers always come back.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

OP is such a failure. NHL ratings went up after the lockout and this past season set records since 1974 for the NHL finals.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
Look at the Yankees. They are one of the most profitable teams in sports, yet they are willing to put all that profit right back into the team if it means winning another title. Their ultimate goal is winning and because they put out a great product every year their customers always come back.
How can teams like the Bucks, Pacers put that profit back into the team to win a title when they aren't turning out one? Even during their heydays?
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
How can teams like the Bucks, Pacers put that profit back into the team to win a title when they aren't turning out one? Even during their heydays?

You telling me they have never earned a profit? BS.

It's a down economy but that doesn't mean it always has been or always will be.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
The ultimate goal is supposed to be winning a title. Year to year profitability is not guaranteed in any sport but for the most part all the owners are able to see huge profit when they eventually sell the team.

Look at the Yankees. They are one of the most profitable teams in sports, yet they are willing to put all that profit right back into the team if it means winning another title. Their ultimate goal is winning and because they put out a great product every year their customers always come back.
you may think this as a fan, but clearly the owners dont buy a team just to win a title regardless of the cashpit it may be. The yankees are a joke of an example, because their revenue is incomparable. They can spend 200 million on salary and still make way more profit ($ or %) than a team in KC can spending only 30 million. and it has nothing to do with winning (see 2000-2009).


People acting like owners (and the league as a whole) should be satisfied with losing money over several years running these teams are insane and do not seem to grasp that this is a business as well as entertainment.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:38 PM   #21
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
You telling me they have never earned a profit? BS.

It's a down economy but that doesn't mean it always has been or always will be.
again, the most cited story is about NJN in 04, 05 and 06. http://deadspin.com/5816870/
which has subsequently been corrected because they were wrong! Ha ha.

well pre-recession, in a big market and with a team core that competed for the title 1 year (3 years for 06) earlier (and was in the ECF in 04). and they still had losses of 7-17 million (04 they broke even or just under) or 27 and 40 million. This isnt a recession related loss and shows just how warped the current system is.

The deadspin argument has been blown up btw and they have had to correct it.
Quote:
CORRECTION: Portions of the analysis below are wrong. They were based on a misreading of the "Loss on players' contracts" line item, which, it turns out, wasn't an RDA claim after all. (If you look in the audit notes for 2004, No. 8 refers to a "player buy-out and a player injury" — the former of which is almost certainly Dikembe Mutombo — totaling the same $25.1 million listed in the "Loss" line item.) The example is bad, and I apologize for that. I'm leaving the text here for a couple reasons: 1.) The roster depreciation allowance is real, even if we've misidentified it here, and it provides owners with a significant tax shelter based on a baroque logic. 2.) The Nets, like all franchises, do use large paper losses to pad their expenses. Here's what ESPN's experts found using the same set of documents (particularly the 2005-06 financials):

Quote:

TEAM FINANCIALSShare
Exclusive: How An NBA Team Makes Money Disappear [UPDATE WITH CORRECTION]
Tommy Craggs — We've obtained audited financial data for the New Jersey Nets covering the three fiscal years from June 2003 to June 2006. Though the numbers end five years ago, you can still see the roots of the argument that will have NBA owners, come midnight, again locking out their players. You can also see how a team makes money and how it pretends not to be making any money at all.

The documents are embedded below, but here are the salient parts (click images to enlarge).

***

CORRECTION: Portions of the analysis below are wrong. They were based on a misreading of the "Loss on players' contracts" line item, which, it turns out, wasn't an RDA claim after all. (If you look in the audit notes for 2004, No. 8 refers to a "player buy-out and a player injury" — the former of which is almost certainly Dikembe Mutombo — totaling the same $25.1 million listed in the "Loss" line item.) The example is bad, and I apologize for that. I'm leaving the text here for a couple reasons: 1.) The roster depreciation allowance is real, even if we've misidentified it here, and it provides owners with a significant tax shelter based on a baroque logic. 2.) The Nets, like all franchises, do use large paper losses to pad their expenses. Here's what ESPN's experts found using the same set of documents (particularly the 2005-06 financials):

In other words, $41.5 million of the Nets' $49 million operating loss in 2005, and $40.2 million of its $57.4 million in 2006, is there simply to make the books balance. It is part of the purchase price of the team, being expensed each year. This doesn't mean they cooked their books, or that they tried to pull a fast one on the players. It is part of the generally accepted accounting practice to transfer expenses from the acquisition to the profit and loss over a certain time period. However, it's an argument that doesn't hold water in a discussion with Hunter and the players association, who would claim that the Nets didn't really "lose" a combined $106.4 million in those two years, but rather that they lost $7.5 million and $17.2 million, respectively.

We've changed the headline to reflect the error.

***

THE NBA'S RESPONSE: From Carol Sawdye, NBA executive vice president and
chief financial officer:

In the three years you addressed, the Nets' cash losses were $20 million in 2004, $27 million in 2005 and $40 million in 2006. Those cash losses have continued since then.

We did not include purchase price amortization in the financial data that we gave to the players and all of the net loss numbers we have used both with the players union and disclosed publicly do not include purchase price amortization. Put simply, none of the Nets losses or the league losses previously disclosed are related to team purchase accounting.

Using the conventional and generally accepted accounting (GAAP) approach, we include in our financial reporting the depreciation of the capital expenditures made by the teams as they're a substantial and necessary cost of doing business. And like every other business, our teams are seeking to make a profit rather than hope that there's some future tax benefit that may or may not be realized.

***
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
you may think this as a fan, but clearly the owners dont buy a team just to win a title regardless of the cashpit it may be. The yankees are a joke of an example, because their revenue is incomparable. They can spend 200 million on salary and still make way more profit ($ or %) than a team in KC can spending only 30 million. and it has nothing to do with winning (see 2000-2009).


People acting like owners (and the league as a whole) should be satisfied with losing money over several years running these teams are insane and do not seem to grasp that this is a business as well as entertainment.

The idea that so many teams are losing money skeptical. Independent figures show that the league is actually still profitable, albeit at a much smaller percentage than the past. Escalating salaries can't be the sole reason for this. When the last CBA was signed the players made 60% of league revenue. In 2010 they made 58% of league revenue. Something else is going on with these owners and blaming the players for bad business decisions is a cop out.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound
again, the most cited story is about NJN in 04, 05 and 06. http://deadspin.com/5816870/
which has subsequently been corrected because they were wrong! Ha ha.

well pre-recession, in a big market and with a team core that competed for the title 1 year (3 years for 06) earlier (and was in the ECF in 04). and they still had losses of 7-17 million (04 they broke even or just under) or 27 and 40 million. This isnt a recession related loss and shows just how warped the current system is.

The deadspin argument has been blown up btw and they have had to correct it.

I am not saying they never lost money. It's how much that is under contention.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:07 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Lol deadspin just got owned.

Quote:
The idea that so many teams are losing money skeptical. Independent figures show that the league is actually still profitable, albeit at a much smaller percentage than the past.

And where are these independent findings?
Quote:
Escalating salaries can't be the sole reason for this. When the last CBA was signed the players made 60% of league revenue. In 2010 they made 58% of league revenue. Something else is going on with these owners and blaming the players for bad business decisions is a cop out.
Any links to these numbers too?

Also, I read on an article about a year ago that the Pacers arrived at a net loss for all of their contending years. I think it was from Forbes.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
Lol deadspin just got owned.


And where are these independent findings?

Any links to these numbers too?

Also, I read on an article about a year ago that the Pacers arrived at a net loss for all of their contending years. I think it was from Forbes.

I'll post it later from my computer.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
NHL used to have a network deal I believe with NBC. Now it's on Versus.

It definitely lost quite a bit of popularity.


wrong

the NHL just made a monster TV rights deal

they are doing very well financially and ratings wise

however, to attribute all of their current success to losing an entire season and massively overhauling their financial deals with the players is a bit of a stretch.

Last edited by kentatm : 07-05-2011 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

I am pretty sure the owners who are making money won't let that happen.
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Old 07-05-2011, 03:25 PM   #28
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kentatm
wrong

the NHL just made a monster TV rights deal

they are doing very well financially and ratings wise

however, to attribute all of their current success to losing an entire season and massively overhauling their financial deals with the players is a bit of a stretch.

What did that take them? 6 or 7 years? You think David Stern wants to throw away the Miami Heatles prime years on Versus?
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
What did that take them? 6 or 7 years? You think David Stern wants to throw away the Miami Heatles prime years on Versus?

It would never fall off like hockey did.

This is about long term for the owners. They care more about profitability than popularity.

That is the issue. Even with the NBA reaching great levels of popularity, the owners aren't making much money (if any at all) because the current CBA has created a messed up league.

Are the owners at fault mainly for this? Yep. But to act like losing a year hurts the owners or their bottom line is just silly. It hurts the fans and players. Not the owners.

The owners save 2.1 billion in player salary and don't have to pay the operating costs (if you believe the owners) that are putting them in the red every year.

I hope the players realize this. If they stand their ground, they can never get back that 2.1 billion. That is why the owners have the power. The very act of missing a year puts the players in a 2.1 billion hole that will take years to get out of.

And nothing would be worse for the players to miss a year and then end up signing a deal they could have signed right now.
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Old 07-05-2011, 04:15 PM   #30
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 28renyoy
OP is such a failure. NHL ratings went up after the lockout and this past season set records since 1974 for the NHL finals.


The NHL also completely changed the game to increase scoring.


Of course the NBA does similar things, like removing the ability to defend without fouling.



The biggest problem, as I see it, is the owners don't agree amongst themselves. How can they have real debate when one side doesn't even agree on what they want?

It's hilarious, and ridiculous that the owners think it's okay to discuss revenue sharing AFTER the new CBA is established.
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