Where did Paul Pierce rank in the league at his best?

[dee-rose]

Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234

I'd say Pierce was top 10 in 2002 and 2003. The lower part of the top 10, but still top 10. He was top 15 several other times, imo, and usually around the top 15 range at least from 2001-2009.

As far as Pierce vs T-Mac?

2001- T-Mac
2002- T-Mac
2003- T-Mac easily
2004- T-Mac
2005- T-Mac
2006- Pierce easily due to McGrady's injuries
2007- T-Mac easily due to McGrady's injuries
2008-present- Pierce, and obviously by a huge margin after 2008

[NuggetsFan]

He deff seems to be the odd man out when you think about the best perimeter players from that time period. Guy's like Kobe, T-Mac, Carter, Iverson stand out more than you had guy's like Wade, Melo, LeBron come into the league. Pretty sure the year Pierce peaked in scoring he wasn't even top 5 and fell behind a guy like Arenas. Also came in a year where 3 guy's where averaging 30+.

Pierce has just always been a really good player. Perennial All-Star but never that superstar, stand out kinda player. Still around when guy's like VC, T-Mac fell off but if you only had to pick one year of there careers? A guy like T-Mac is a no brainer against Pierce imo.

[Boston C's]

Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

In 02 you had....

Shaq
Duncan
Kg
Kobe
Tmac
AI
VC
Dirk
Webber
Kidd
Karl Malone
Payton
Stackhouse(naaaaaah)
Ray Allen
Jermaine Oneal
Jordan

Id listen to arguments for 12 being better than he was at the time. But I think in the end is say he was 9th or 10th after some thought. I forgot about Kidd earlier.

He earned top 10 to me.

Those bolded were better then pierce at the time... then when you get to the later yrs you had guys like nash (mvp seasons) Elton brand had a breakout yr, wade comin up and lebron, ray was better for a season or 2, etc so basically he was just outside the top 10 for his career... when guys like c webb and vince fell off guys like wade and lebron took the top ten spots... top 15 isnt bad because he was an elite player but I don't think he was good enough to be considered top 10 because your talking about a lot of great players in the league... top 15 for sure but top 10 is a stretch to me

[Kblaze8855]

Not amazing to watch says who? You? Really? Are you saying that?

Compared to the people in question? Yes. Of course. Compared to the top guards/swingmen of the last 10 years?

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Tmac
Vc
AI


Those guys were amazing to watch. Then you have Pierce, Durant, and Melo who are just really good. Not people you just have to see because the yare gonna do something wild. What is Pierce gonna do? A stepback jumper? Draw contact in the lane make the layup and mean mug the crowd and throw up a gang sign? Wade was out there blocking shots and going a step past halfcourt and knocking down 3 point floaters at the buzzer for the win on one night...dunking over 2 7 footers the next...breaking ankles and looking unstoppable in the finals. Lebron is...Lebron. Kobe? Enough said. Tmac was nasty in his day. Might bang on you...throw the crazy pass. Get hot and score 25 in a row. Put up 35ppg for 3-4 months straight or hit back to back to back to back 3s with a 4 point play for the win. Vince? cmon now. Iverson? Same.

Pierce isnt approaching that class as a guy who you just...watch to be amazed. Not realted to how good he is/was. He just wasnt that kind of player. He had his moments of flash. But he doesnt ecaxtly have a top 10 amazing plays you can run off in your head like many can with the others.

If you made a top 100 plays of Vince, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Pierce, and Iversons career how many of the 100 get devoted to Pierce?

Perhaps that wicked finger roll he did from the foul line as a rookie. The dunk on shawn bradley. The halftime 3 over Harrington.

He might get 3 of 100 plays. MIGHT. Thats if we ignore how many times Wade or VC have done layups as good as Pauls rookie shot and ignore than VCs top 100 dunks has like...98 dunks better than Pierce ever did.

What I said wasnt about skills. Pierce has skills. He just isnt exciting. Not on that level.

[pete's montreux]

Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

Compared to the people in question? Yes. Of course. Compared to the top guards/swingmen of the last 10 years?

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Tmac
Vc
AI


Those guys were amazing to watch. Then you have Pierce, Durant, and Melo who are just really good. Not people you just have to see because the yare gonna do something wild. What is Pierce gonna do? A stepback jumper? Draw contact in the lane make the layup and mean mug the crowd and throw up a gang sign? Wade was out there blocking shots and going a step past halfcourt and knocking down 3 point floaters at the buzzer for the win on one night...dunking over 2 7 footers the next...breaking ankles and looking unstoppable in the finals. Lebron is...Lebron. Kobe? Enough said. Tmac was nasty in his day. Might bang on you...throw the crazy pass. Get hot and score 25 in a row. Put up 35ppg for 3-4 months straight or hit back to back to back to back 3s with a 4 point play for the win. Vince? cmon now. Iverson? Same.

Pierce isnt approaching that class as a guy who you just...watch to be amazed. Not realted to how good he is/was. He just wasnt that kind of player. He had his moments of flash. But he doesnt ecaxtly have a top 10 amazing plays you can run off in your head like many can with the others.

If you made a top 100 plays of Vince, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Pierce, and Iversons career how many of the 100 get devoted to Pierce?

Perhaps that wicked finger roll he did from the foul line as a rookie. The dunk on shawn bradley. The halftime 3 over Harrington.

He might get 3 of 100 plays. MIGHT. Thats if we ignore how many times Wade or VC have done layups as good as Pauls rookie shot and ignore than VCs top 100 dunks has like...98 dunks better than Pierce ever did.

What I said wasnt about skills. Pierce has skills. He just isnt exciting. Not on that level.

So what would you say to an entire fanbase? They're wrong? Bostons fans have been preaching how people forget about Pierce for nearly 15 years. Are they dead wrong? We literally have no argument to you?

Most of the things you listed Pierce has done.

Anyone who says Pierce in his prime [when he was the main man and had more touches] was average or boring with the ball just makes me think you probably saw very little of him during that time. I just can't fathom how anyone would say that.

All those guys you listed are probably the most exciting players in the last 20 years. But for some reason you're creating this supermassive gap between like if Pierce isn't as exciting as they are, he MUST me way average and boring.

Like their isn't a tier just below them that's still exciting? Is that completely out of the realm of possibility? There's Vince Carter exciting and then...who gives a shit exciting? There's only two levels of exciting to you?

[JohnnySic]

Asking Pierce vs Tmac and bringing up Tmac on the Raptors, Pistons, and Knicks is like comparing Magic to Jordan and talking about 1996 Magic with Eddie Jones and NVE. Or judging Ben Wallace by his time in Orlando or DC. Just because its the same name doesnt make it the player in question. Bringing up 2011 in the first place shows how close the matchup...isnt. If it were actually a question you could compare Pierce to the real Tmac and not the guy without a back or knees coming off the bench for the Knicks. Have to wait until Tmac is an injured shell of himself to really put Paul over him. Lets talk about Kenny Anderson on the Celtics, Gerald Wallace on the Kings, Gervin in chicago, Nique in Orlando, Jermaine Oneal on Portland, Penny on the Knicks, and Ewing on the Sonics while we are pretending anyone ranks a player by what he is 8 years into decline or years before hes given a chance to shine....

I listed all the years as a goof, as I noted.

But even at his peak (and TMac did have a higher peak than PP), the difference between the 2 was not great. Perception says so, but the numbers dont back it up. TMac had a higher ppg for a couple of years, but that was due to taking more shots (dont take my word for it, look it up). Fg%, ft%, and 3pfg% were consistently about even. Rebounds, assists, and steals were always roughly the same. I'd wager that impact on defense was about the same.

TMac just "looked better" doing it. He was flashier and his dunks were better. Same reason Vince Carter was ranked above PP. Not many would say VC > PP now.

[NuggetsFan]

Not to mention exciting is purely subjective. I'd rather watch Melo's footwork, jab step, pull up jumper similar to a Paul Pierce than some of VC's dunks. Just with dunks you can't just flat out say one's better than the other, it's all opinion.

[pete's montreux]

Who do you take when you're building a team or trying to win? I wouldn't touch AI, T-Mac or VC with a f*cking fifty fool pole. AI is impossible to build around, T-Mac can't get it done and VC has a heart the size of a thimble.

You think anyone of those three takes a lesser role like Pierce did in 2008 when they were still capable of 25 a game? Not a chance.

[pete's montreux]

Originally Posted by NuggetsFan

Not to mention exciting is purely subjective. I'd rather watch Melo's footwork, jab step, pull up jumper similar to a Paul Pierce than some of VC's dunks. Just with dunks you can't just flat out say one's better than the other, it's all opinion.

EXACTLY. Melo and Pierce's and Kobe's games are to me, the best in the game. So aesthetically pleasing.

Who other than Pierce and Melo make people fall hard as f*ck with step-backs? Such a simple move executed perfectly. Beautiful.

[NuggetsFan]

Originally Posted by JohnnySic

I listed all the years as a goof, as I noted.

But even at his peak (and TMac did have a higher peak than PP), the difference between the 2 was not great. Perception says so, but the numbers dont back it up. TMac had a higher ppg for a couple of years, but that was due to taking more shots (dont take my word for it, look it up). Fg%, ft%, and 3pfg% were consistently about even. Rebounds, assists, and steals were always roughly the same. I'd wager that impact on defense was about the same.

TMac just "looked better" doing it. He was flashier and his dunks were better. Same reason Vince Carter was ranked above PP. Not many would say VC > PP now.

Numbers don't back it up? T-Mac averaged like 5 more points than Pierce in his prime. 5 more points on similar %'s is more than just, he took more shots.

There's an obvious difference at there peaks.

[NuggetsFan]

Originally Posted by pete's montreux

EXACTLY. Melo and Pierce's and Kobe's games are to me, the best in the game. So aesthetically pleasing.

Who other than Pierce and Melo make people fall hard as f*ck with step-backs? Such a simple move executed perfectly. Beautiful.

Yup. LeBron is deemed more exciting to most because of his dominance on the drive, athletic ability. Rather watch a player that's more skill than athletic ability or a combo of the two. Not saying Pierce is more exciting than a T-Mac or VC because he probably wasn't when you add it all up, but it's purely subjective and to act like Pierce didn't get people's blood going in his day is kinda silly.

[Kblaze8855]

So what would you say to an entire fanbase? They're wrong? Bostons fans have been preaching how people forget about Pierce for nearly 15 years. Are they dead wrong? We literally have no argument to you?

Wouldnt Boston fans be the last ones to listen to on a matter like this? I might as well conduct a Karl Malone vs Barkley poll in Salt Lake City.

And what we were talking about has nothing to do with how good he is/was. Guys arent better than him because they look better doing it.

Most of the things you listed Pierce has done.

No. He has not.

Anyone who says Pierce in his prime [when he was the main man and had more touches] was average or boring with the ball just makes me think you probably saw very little of him during that time. I just can't fathom how anyone would say that.

Lets not go into the "You didnt watch him..." thing. Ive watched everyone. Especially east coast modern swingmen superstars always in the playoffs.

I said compared to the people in question. I didnt say hes unspectacular compared to....Glen Rice. Hes just not Kobe dropping 40ppg for a month, going around the back into the 180 dunk and crossing over and throwing the lob to shaq exciting. Hes not Reject Amare and hit the halfcourt buzzer beater, and do the dunk of the year over Christian Laettner, and hitting Raja bell with a crossover so mean he literally fell from the top of the key and banged his head into the goalpost like Wade exciting. Hes not off the backboard lob to himself in traffic, make back to back 35 foot jumpers, reverse dunk all over David Robinson, drop 62 points in a game he was so hot he had TWO halfcourt buzzer beaters go in that didnt count exciting like Tmac. Hes not full speed ball through the defenders legs then nice dish to Coleman, or crossover so mean the NBA made it illegal even when he doesnt carry, 360 layups, putback dunk landing on Cambys shoulder at 5'11'', drop Lue and step over him like AI exciting. Hes not multiple in game alley oop windmill, jump over a 7 footer, 45 inch leap to make the game winning block, sick pass around the defenders back, 360 layup, off the backboard to himself in game for the dunk...2-3 times...Vince Carter exciting.

He just isnt. Wasnt. Never will be.

All those guys you listed are probably the most exciting players in the last 20 years. But for some reason you're creating this supermassive gap between like if Pierce isn't as exciting as they are, he MUST me way average and boring.

Im not gonna defend myself on points you made up.

Like their isn't a tier just below them that's still exciting? Is that completely out of the realm of possibility? There's Vince Carter exciting and then...who gives a shit exciting? There's only two levels of exciting to you?

Yes....its either Vince Carter over Mutombo or Robert Parish as a Hornet for me. Yes. Thats exactly what I said.

[pete's montreux]

So again you listed some of the best plays ever and saying Pierce didn't do THIS, he's boring. So basically you DO have one level of really exciting, and then highlights of Scalabrine on the bench exciting. No in between. Gotcha.

Those guys were amazing to watch. Then you have Pierce, Durant, and Melo who are just really good. Not people you just have to see because the yare gonna do something wild. What is Pierce gonna do? A stepback jumper? Draw contact in the lane make the layup and mean mug the crowd and throw up a gang sign? Wade was out there blocking shots and going a step past halfcourt and knocking down 3 point floaters at the buzzer for the win on one night...dunking over 2 7 footers the next...breaking ankles and looking unstoppable in the finals. Lebron is...Lebron. Kobe? Enough said. Tmac was nasty in his day. Might bang on you...throw the crazy pass. Get hot and score 25 in a row. Put up 35ppg for 3-4 months straight or hit back to back to back to back 3s with a 4 point play for the win. Vince? cmon now. Iverson? Same.

Like I said, "most", you're mixing in shit that ONE person has done ever [13 in 35], and half court game winners with normal shit like flashy passes and dunks. Have some consistency.

You're acting like Pierce never dunked on 7 footers or averaged 30+ for a month. Check 05-06, pretty sure he did it twice and broke the Boston franchise record for consecutive 30 points games. He's never thrown a crazy pass? Never banged on anyone? Never crossed a guy up?

He's never had a worthy highlight other than the talk shit hit a three in Al Harrington's face? Not one?

[Eat Like A Bosh]

It's possible that Pierce was a top 10 player every one of those seasons.

But he gets underrated due to other rising stars. And because of the period when Boston struggled, nobody talks about him. I think Pierce was a legit top 10 only in the year where he had Walker and made the ECF and after KG arrived. But who knows

[ballerz]

i feel that pierce never got his due because he was never super athletic but his fundamentals were as sound as anybody.