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Old 07-26-2011, 03:49 AM   #16
Lebron23
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Happy Birthday Nate.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Thurmond never played on a championship team, but he toiled season-after-season with the Warrior organization. Ironically, the Warriors finally shipped Nate off to Chicago before the 74-75 season. His arrival to the Bulls was expected to shore up their one area of weakness in the early 70's, and many predicted that the Bulls would win the title. Meanwhile, the Warriors not only traded their one consistent superstar, they completed revamped their roster, and many thought it would be a rebuilding process. Most pre-season publications had the Warriors near the bottom of their division. Of course, Barry had one of the greatest seasons ever, and with rookie Wilkes, and a cast of role players, they came from behind against Nate's Bulls (they were down at one point, 3-2, in that series...and they also came back in the 4th quarter from a large deficit to win that series.) Then, in the Finals, and against the heavily-favored 60-22 Bullets, Golden State came from behind in the 4th quarters of EVERY game, and SWEPT the Bullets, 4-0.

Still one of the most remarkable "cinderella" seasons in NBA history.

Then, to continue the irony, that Warrior team added Gus Williams the very next year, and were CLEARLY the best team in the league. They went 59-23, and had the biggest point differential (in a surprisingly close league.) They went into that post-season as the prohibitive favorites, but were then stunned by the 40-42 Suns in six games in the WCF's.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Happy Birthday!

THE most underappreciated center Nate The Great!


mars 24, 1969
Brave Words From A Hawk And A Warrior
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...12/2/index.htm
Quote:
"The matchups are the thing," says Rudy LaRusso, the ex-Laker forward who is now so important to the Warriors that they let him live in Los Angeles and commute to San Francisco for games and practice. "Thurmond against Chamberlain, that's got to be a standoff. Neither can do very much against the other. Wilt will get a few dunk shots, and Nate will get a few hooks, and that's about it. They'll be about even in rebounds." As if to prove the point, in last week's Warrior victory Chamberlain scored five points, Thurmond six; the former had 20 rebounds, the latter 26.
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Thurmond never played on a championship team, but he toiled season-after-season with the Warrior organization.
One might wonder what could've been had Barry not played in ABA and stayed with Thurmond in that 5yrs
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
The Nate who held a PRIME Kareem to two straight post-season series of 22.8 ppg and 22.8 ppg, and on .405 and .428 shooting. This, from a Kareem who had averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, and 30.2 ppg on .550 shooting during his regular seasons. He also faced Kareem in some 50+ H2H games, and Kareem seldom even scored 30 points against him, and his HIGH game was only 34 points. In fact, I suspect that Kareem shot considerably less than 45% against Thurmond in those 50+ games, and Kareem was a .559 career shooter.

That's amazing considering the fact that the same Kareem took a huge dump on Wilt when he averaged 40 points on 51% shooting from the court when he faced the defensive beast Wilt, in the '72 regular season.

Would have loved to see Thurmond!
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:17 PM   #21
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Nate Thurmond was a true stud. A player for any era. Crude offensively, but effective nonetheless. His propensity to miss two or three shots in the paint an rebound them until he finally scored sunk his fg% and helped him post the third best rebounding numbers in NBA history.

Thurmond was, like most true greats, at his best against the best. During Wilt Chamberlains quasi-mythical 1967 postseason he averaged over 23 points 30 rebounds and 11 assists against Cincinnati and Russell's Celtics. Against Jabbar in the '72 playoff he kept Kareem below 41% from the field and Kareem' scoring average dropped from 35 to 23. The Warriors beat the two-time MVP and his defending champs in five.

Nate Thurmond is one of the top 15 centers to play the game and one of the three or four best defensive centers ever.
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
That's amazing considering the fact that the same Kareem took a huge dump on Wilt when he averaged 40 points on 51% shooting from the court when he faced the defensive beast Wilt, in the '72 regular season.

Would have loved to see Thurmond!

The DEFENSIVE BEAST Wilt, who at ages 35 and 36, and over the course of their last TEN H2H games, and against a PRIME Kareem, held Kareem to .434 shooting. And, of course, as TIME MAGAZINE mentioned, Chamberlain DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in the '72 WCF's, when, he easily outrebounded him, and, over the course of the last FOUR games of that series, held Kareem to a paltry .414 FG%. Not to mention that Wilt blocked a KNOWN 15 sky-hooks in that series (and probably considerably more.)

The defensive beast Chamberlain who held Kareem to .464 shooting over the course of their 28 H2H games, 27 of which came after Wilt's knee injury. Think about that...a PRIME Kareem, shot .464 against Wilt...which was nearly a 100 points lower than his career FG% of .559.

Now, that was against a well-past his prime Wilt. In any case, we KNOW that Hakeem could not guard a 37 or 38 year old Kareem AT ALL. A 38 year-old Kareem who averaged 33 ppg in their FIVE H2H games, on get this, a .634 FG% against Hakeem...and get this....who, from ages 38 thru his LAST season, at age 41...shot a COMBINED .599 against a 23-26 year old Hakeem.

A 37 and 38 year-old Kareem also POUNDED Hakeem with THREE 40+ point games, including one game in which he scored 46 points, on 21-30 shooting (yes... 70% shooting) in only 37 minutes. Think about that... had that 38 year old Kareem played a full 48 minutes against Hakeem that night, he was easily on pace for a 60 point game...which would have shattered his career high game of 55.

So, in comparing their play,...yes a WAY-PAST his PRIME Wilt, and playing on a surgically repaired knee, was a FAR greater defender than Hakeem.

BTW, Wilt and Nate met three times in the post-season. Wilt outrebounded him in EVERY series (and nearly EVERY GAME), including a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg edge in Wilt's LAST post-season. Chamberlain also shot over 50% in ALL three post-seasons against Nate, with a high of .560...while Thurmond NEVER shot above .398 in those three post-season series, and had a low of .343.

IMHO, Russell was the greatest defensive center of all-time, with a PRIME Chamberlain right there with him, and then Thurmond at #3. After that there is a BIG drop-off to whoever might be next.

Last edited by jlauber : 07-27-2011 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 07-27-2011, 03:36 AM   #23
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
I don't want anyone coming in here to derail the thread with tired, never-ending agendas that go on ad nauseum. For once, let's just give a player his due and leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
The Nate who held a PRIME Kareem to two straight post-season series of 22.8 ppg and 22.8 ppg, and on .405 and .428 shooting. This, from a Kareem who had averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, and 30.2 ppg on .550 shooting during his regular seasons. He also faced Kareem in some 50+ H2H games, and Kareem seldom even scored 30 points against him, and his HIGH game was only 34 points. In fact, I suspect that Kareem shot considerably less than 45% against Thurmond in those 50+ games, and Kareem was a .559 career shooter.

That's amazing considering the fact that the same Kareem took a huge dump on Wilt when he averaged 40 points on 51% shooting from the court when he faced the defensive beast Wilt, in the '72 regular season.

Would have loved to see Thurmond!

This is exactly why I hardly waste my time here anymore. There are about a handful of posters who post anything of substance worth reading, and no one can have a discussion about stupid crap. You deliberately baited jlauber so you two can carry your insipid argument on and on and on and on and on without end, across numerous threads that have nothing to do with what you've been arguing about, just so you can resume it. I'm sick of it. I don't know why I even bothered coming back. I think I'm going to wash my hands of this site and restrict myself to places where one can actually have intelligent basketball discussions. Might as well let the ignorant run the asylum, since there's no hope for this place anyway. Arthur Schopenhauer said it best:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer
in dealing with fools and blockheads, there is only one way of showing your intelligenceóby having nothing to do with them.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:52 AM   #24
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
This is exactly why I hardly waste my time here anymore. There are about a handful of posters who post anything of substance worth reading, and no one can have a discussion about stupid crap. You deliberately baited jlauber so you two can carry your insipid argument on and on and on and on and on without end, across numerous threads that have nothing to do with what you've been arguing about, just so you can resume it. I'm sick of it. I don't know why I even bothered coming back. I think I'm going to wash my hands of this site and restrict myself to places where one can actually have intelligent basketball discussions. Might as well let the ignorant run the asylum, since there's no hope for this place anyway. Arthur Schopenhauer said it best:

It's not my fault that Jlauber is butthurt, I only made the reference so people would understand how great Thurmond was. That he was able to stop Kareem while he about crushed everyone else, even one of the greatest centers ever.

It's not my fault that Jlauber feel that he must defend Wilt in every thread, it doesn't take much before Jlauber posts an essay of crap just to defend Wilt.. I praised Thurmond, I didn't diss anyone..
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

For quite a few years, we've been aware of his defensive stats, how he was able to hold Kareem and Wilt significantly below their averages. Willis Reed, as well. I don't know if his high against Thurmond was as low as he says, but I've seen that in 1970, the MVP Reed had some terrible games against Nate, as well. I think he even had a 7-point game, on horrible percentages.
Thurmond (like Russell and later Cowens) was a fighter who raised his game against his greatest opponents quite often. What impressed me the most is that he didn't only hold Kareem to 22.8 ppg in 1972, he actually outscored him as well (I think he averaged 25.4 ppg), while also outrebounding him. However, I'm kind of skeptical about 1973, when he did an equally admirable job on him and got universal praises, but averaged "only" about 16/10 (and therefore, I'm not sure he outplayed Kareem in 1973).
He also outperformed Wilt in the first 2 games of the 1969 series (Wilt however got the better of him later on), while also holding him to 7 ppg in the 1973 series (career low for Wilt) - one of the very few series when you could make a case for Wilt's personal opponent outplaying him for a whole series. Wilt beat him clearly in 1967, but Thurmond still performed better than Wilt's other playoff opponents.
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:18 PM   #26
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
For quite a few years, we've been aware of his defensive stats, how he was able to hold Kareem and Wilt significantly below their averages. Willis Reed, as well. I don't know if his high against Thurmond was as low as he says, but I've seen that in 1970, the MVP Reed had some terrible games against Nate, as well. I think he even had a 7-point game, on horrible percentages.
Thurmond (like Russell and later Cowens) was a fighter who raised his game against his greatest opponents quite often. What impressed me the most is that he didn't only hold Kareem to 22.8 ppg in 1972, he actually outscored him as well (I think he averaged 25.4 ppg), while also outrebounding him. However, I'm kind of skeptical about 1973, when he did an equally admirable job on him and got universal praises, but averaged "only" about 16/10 (and therefore, I'm not sure he outplayed Kareem in 1973).
He also outperformed Wilt in the first 2 games of the 1969 series (Wilt however got the better of him later on), while also holding him to 7 ppg in the 1973 series (career low for Wilt) - one of the very few series when you could make a case for Wilt's personal opponent outplaying him for a whole series. Wilt beat him clearly in 1967, but Thurmond still performed better than Wilt's other playoff opponents.

Keep Posting.
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:43 PM   #27
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

So wait, there is no footage of this guy and yet he's being labeled the best post-defender of all time going off from a couple of articles. OK
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
I think I'm going to wash my hands of this site and restrict myself to places where one can actually have intelligent basketball discussions. :

If you find such a place, please pass it along. I'll join you.
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millwad
It's not my fault that Jlauber feel that he must defend Wilt in every thread, it doesn't take much before Jlauber posts an essay of crap just to defend Wilt.. I praised Thurmond, I didn't diss anyone..

Come on.

That's amazing considering the fact that the same Kareem took a huge dump on Wilt when he averaged 40 points on 51% shooting from the court when he faced the defensive beast Wilt, in the '72 regular season.

You posted an obvious slam against Wilt to reignite the ridiculous feud you guys perpetuate.

At least jlauber sticks to his guns. To run and hide, crying you didn't do anything to incite it, is pure chicken shit.
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: Happy Birthday to an Underappreciated All Time Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaRegul8r
I don't know why I even bothered coming back. I think I'm going to wash my hands of this site and restrict myself to places where one can actually have intelligent basketball discussions. Might as well let the ignorant run the asylum, since there's no hope for this place anyway. Arthur Schopenhauer said it best:

This is the best one out there. That' really sad, but basketball forums attract a whole lot of stubbron combative people and a lot of mini-Holingers who don't understand the game but can find some stats (typical made up numbers like win shares or PER) to support any opinion they want to have.

At least once you've been here a while you start to know which people's posts are worth reading. I promise you more than half the posts on every page I open are from people on ignore. We need more like you, stick around and fight the good fight. You have other haunts you can pop in at, like i do when this place burns you out.
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