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Old 05-12-2015, 05:04 AM   #1
kNIOKAS
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Default TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

As you may know or not know, some international Free trade agreements are being developed, mainly TTP (between some nations of Americas) and TTIP (between US and Europe, roughly).

They are negiotiated by the US Trade Representative and business entities together with state institutions of other countries (for example, it it European Commision in case of TTIP).

In case of US, the negiotiations are secret and the terms of agreement will only be made public 4 years after being put into effect. The legislators will have to vote on it as all-or-nothing, without being able to correct parts of the deal that they do not agree with. Here is Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel laureate of economics breaking down the agreements (sorry for the low sound):
https://www.facebook.com/selconvendo...62166/?fref=nf

The agreements have received noteable backclash from intellectuals, however, has seen only minor attention by the media. Please help the world and sign the petition to stop TTIP (European part):
https://stop-ttip.org/

Or TTP (Americas):
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/stop-the-trans-pacific
or http://stopthetrap.net/
(don't know which one counts the most).


Please feel free to provide another link for petitions. I urge you to spend a minute and make the world a better place for you and future generations.

Last edited by kNIOKAS : 05-12-2015 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 05-12-2015, 05:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

yeah, we can't have the low US food quality standards here

data privacy another problem imo.
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Old 05-12-2015, 05:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Don't tell me what to do
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Old 05-12-2015, 06:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloBill
Don't tell me what to do
a patient said to a doctor
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Old 05-12-2015, 06:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

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Originally Posted by kNIOKAS
a patient said to a doctor


Good one but I've met my fair share of doctors who have no f*cking clue what they're talking about.
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by kNIOKAS
To may knowledge they are negiotiated by the US Chamber of Commerce and business entities together with state institutions of other countries (for example, it it European Commision in case of TTIP).

The US Chamber of Commerce is not negotiating this agreement. The CoC is a private, not a governmental group.

It's being negotiated by the US Trade Representative which is an office in the Executive Branch.
https://ustr.gov/about-us/history

Last edited by KevinNYC : 05-12-2015 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

What possible reason is there to be against free trade?
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

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Originally Posted by NumberSix
What possible reason is there to be against free trade?
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Old 05-12-2015, 03:03 PM   #9
kNIOKAS
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffaloBill
Good one but I've met my fair share of doctors who have no f*cking clue what they're talking about.
That's also true but I'm just saying being politically aware and active shouldn't be consider gauche, if you will. Not that me telling people what to do helps... Still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
The US Chamber of Commerce is not negotiating this agreement. The CoC is a private, not a governmental group.

It's being negotiated by the US Trade Representative which is an office in the Executive Branch.
https://ustr.gov/about-us/history
Ok I fixed it.

However, it does not make too much of a difference as the people representing big business go in and out of the office all the time. They work for the corporations, do a good job, then take the administrative office, leave, come back to their respecitve businesses and do even better. So yeah... Pretty disappointing.
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Old 05-12-2015, 03:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by kNIOKAS
That's also true but I'm just saying being politically aware and active shouldn't be consider gauche, if you will. Not that me telling people what to do helps... Still.


Ok I fixed it.

However, it does not make too much of a difference as the people representing big business go in and out of the office all the time. They work for the corporations, do a good job, then take the administrative office, leave, come back to their respecitve businesses and do even better. So yeah... Pretty disappointing.
So, is your problem with the policy that is being proposed, or the people negotiating it?

I'm with you that, there is no way any corporation should be arguing a nations trade policy. They will obviously rig it to work in their own favour and against any potential competitor.

Easy solution..... Completely open, free trade. No tariffs whatsoever. None of this "this percent for these kinds of imports, and this percent for these other kinds". Set it at 0. None. Nothing.
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Old 05-12-2015, 03:49 PM   #11
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberSix
So, is your problem with the policy that is being proposed, or the people negotiating it?

I'm with you that, there is no way any corporation should be arguing a nations trade policy. They will obviously rig it to work in their own favour and against any potential competitor.

Easy solution..... Completely open, free trade. No tariffs whatsoever. None of this "this percent for these kinds of imports, and this percent for these other kinds". Set it at 0. None. Nothing.
There are structual and factual flaws in the process and in the agreement itself, as far as representing the interests of all people equally goes.


It is right to be pro-free trade in the actual sense of the word, however, there are signs that the free trade is an utopia because it is a self-arranging system - that arranges itself to not be free, paradoxically.

Not talking theoretically but practically - without tariffs or subsidies or any of the regulations, the trade cannot be free just because the labour is not free - people speak different languages, have different commitments and education levels. They are not able to participate in the market freely, as of now. Not that I wish they could - I think globalization has some very scary effects that I'd like to see postponed.
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Old 05-14-2015, 03:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

I'm curious about why the media is so damn silent about these deals. It seems like there's no publications to tell the public about the agreement, let alone weight and address the possible consequences of it.

However, I came up one article accidently in a magazine for business. It was praising the deal to no extent and did not list any of the concerns or drawbacks - which any deal has. It said something about the "scare about GMOs, fracking and gas that has postponed the deal two years ago". Crazy, because that's the most misconstrued way to approach what the critics have been saying.

I like what Nobel Prize laureate for Economics Stigliz said: if you want to make a free trade agreement, just sign a three-pages-long document that says both sides stop the tarrifs, stop the non-tarrifs, and stop the subsidies. Now drafts of those agreements that we're talking about gets to 30 000 pages... That's getting rid of regulations en masse!


So sign the petition, and consider yourself not got mugged for today.
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by kNIOKAS
There are structual and factual flaws in the process and in the agreement itself, as far as representing the interests of all people equally goes.


It is right to be pro-free trade in the actual sense of the word, however, there are signs that the free trade is an utopia because it is a self-arranging system - that arranges itself to not be free, paradoxically.

Not talking theoretically but practically - without tariffs or subsidies or any of the regulations, the trade cannot be free just because the labour is not free - people speak different languages, have different commitments and education levels. They are not able to participate in the market freely, as of now. Not that I wish they could - I think globalization has some very scary effects that I'd like to see postponed.
lol what? Trade agreements have been kept confidential for the last couple of decades and rightfully so as these kinds of agreements are accompanied by demagoguery such as "There are structual and factual flaws in the process and in the agreement itself, as far as representing the interests of all people equally goes." How can you expect thousands of competing interests to come to an agreement attempting to represent all "equally?"

Last edited by shlver : 05-14-2015 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 05-14-2015, 08:22 AM   #14
kNIOKAS
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by shlver
lol what? Trade agreements have been kept confidential for the last couple of decades and rightfully so as these kinds of agreements are accompanied by demagoguery such as "There are structual and factual flaws in the process and in the agreement itself, as far as representing the interests of all people equally goes." How can you expect thousands of competing interests to come to an agreement attempting to represent all "equally?"
I don't know...

Maybe we should consider giving up on the idea of representing all people equally in business agreements like these. You've pointed out how it is impossible for the competing interests of the business and of all people to come to terms... I can see your argument.

Maybe if we just officially forfeited our interests, maybe those agreements wouldn't have to be done in secret anymore. Let the big business to take care of their interests without us interfering. Way more probable..?
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Old 05-14-2015, 01:49 PM   #15
NumberSix
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Default Re: TTP and TTIP: agreements that you should petition against

Quote:
Originally Posted by kNIOKAS
I'm curious about why the media is so damn silent about these deals. It seems like there's no publications to tell the public about the agreement, let alone weight and address the possible consequences of it.

However, I came up one article accidently in a magazine for business. It was praising the deal to no extent and did not list any of the concerns or drawbacks - which any deal has. It said something about the "scare about GMOs, fracking and gas that has postponed the deal two years ago". Crazy, because that's the most misconstrued way to approach what the critics have been saying.

I like what Nobel Prize laureate for Economics Stigliz said: if you want to make a free trade agreement, just sign a three-pages-long document that says both sides stop the tarrifs, stop the non-tarrifs, and stop the subsidies. Now drafts of those agreements that we're talking about gets to 30 000 pages... That's getting rid of regulations en masse!


So sign the petition, and consider yourself not got mugged for today.
Isn't that exactly what I just said, which you felt the need to disagree with?
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