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Old 09-17-2011, 05:29 PM   #76
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Isn't blocked shots coming more from perimeter players, not big men?
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:30 PM   #77
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
This is a cop out. ;x.... these guys are paid up to 20+ million a year. They are in top physical and mental condition. It's a mindset change and you can have multiple functions stored in muscle memory. You're telling me players can be reactive all game long on offense but not on defense?? You can't make a split second decision to catch/control a block rather than swat into stands? That's BS. Maybe they need to practice catch blocks.. and make them become an instinct.. but to imply these players have no control is crazy.
You continue to question why certain skilled players don't catch the ball more often. What is your belief on the matter? Why do you believe it doesn't happen more often? Do you believe players just don't understand catching it would be beneficial? Or do you believe players know they could catch blocks all the time but instead choose to slap them into the crowd because it feels more awesome?

It's always been my understanding that catching someone's shot is the definition of ultimate domination on defense. Is it more badass when LaPhonso Ellis swatted a dunk or when he caught it outright? I feel the answer is obvious. What made Jordan's block on Ron Mercer so legendary? The fact he caught it in mid-air. Suffice to say, the catch-block has sick street cred. On the block ladder of awesomeness, I feel many will agree it generally could go:

1. Tip/Deflect Block: Kind of Awesome
2. Swat: Pretty Awesome
3. Pinned on the backboard: More Awesome
4. Catching a Shot: Bad as Hell.

So, if you believe people like the satisfaction that comes with catching an offensive player's shot and you believe they're not retarded enough to not understand the concept of gaining possession through completing an awesome play, then what other reason would there be for the catch block not happening more often other than the fact that it's really hard to pull off?

I have found this topic to be a difficult one to discuss at times just because it's sort of dumbfounding. The simple and obvious answer (that a catch block is very difficult to pull off) doesn't seem to be a satisfactory explanation, even though I feel like that should be the long and short of it. It's like asking, "Why don't more people tip-dunk more often? I know Vince Carter averaged multiple offensive rebounds per game in his prime. Why didn't he tip-dunk more of them? Doesn't he understand he'll get two points right away instead of having to reset the offense?"

I acknowledge the "have you ever even played basketball" line of reasoning is a little lame. And I definitely see how it could sound insulting. However, I think at least a couple of posters are just asking that question because it seems the answer to your query (why don't catch blocks happen more often?) would seem abundantly clear to anyone who's played the game for an extended period of time.

And to be clear, even when playing against 5th graders, you or me trying to catch shots isn't going to be the same as JaVale McGee trying to catch shots. He's way above the goal and his paws are huge. I think it'd be a more comparable scenario if we lowered the basket down to 8.5 feet and played against people our age using one of those mini-basketballs often handed out as prizes at county fairs. I've done it. And even on lowered rims with small basketballs, catching a shot attempt (without goaltending) is not a completely natural play to execute. It take a very unique set of circumstances to pull off.

And sure, you're saying, "Well of course it's not going to happen often for you. You're obviously not an NBA player with the hops and ability and general fundamental wherewithal of a Dwight Howard, JaVale McGee or DeAndre Jordan." At which point, I'd have to agree with you, which would then solidify my point. Even for athletic freaks, catching a blocked shot is very hard to come by, not to mention inefficient. Imagine the drop in Dennis Rodman's rebound rate if all he did was crash the glass and attempt a tip-dunk each play. Now imagine all the shots these big men wouldn't be able to reach or tip in the first place if they just spent the whole game looking to catch a shot.

Have you ever, really, really rejected someone before? As in, you blocked them so bad you had your entire wrist on the ball, or at least your entire hand? If so, did you ever stop to think about why, in retrospect, you didn't just grab the ball out of air with two hands instead? Or maybe cuffed it right there between your hand and your wrist? You were just trying to block the shot by any means, right? You weren't really worried about how you were blocking the shot as much as you were worried about whether you were going to block the shot at all, period.

This topic intrigues me because the concept appears so simple. It's like asking why the sky is blue.
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:34 PM   #78
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
You continue to question why certain skilled players don't catch the ball more often. What is your belief on the matter? Why do you believe it doesn't happen more often? Do you believe players just don't understand catching it would be beneficial? Or do you believe players know they could catch blocks all the time but instead choose to slap them into the crowd because it feels more awesome?

It's always been my understanding that catching someone's shot is the definition of ultimate domination on defense. Is it more badass when LaPhonso Ellis swatted a dunk or when he caught it outright? I feel the answer is obvious. What made Jordan's block on Ron Mercer so legendary? The fact he caught it in mid-air. Suffice to say, the catch-block has sick street cred. On the block ladder of awesomeness, I feel many will agree it generally could go:

1. Tip/Deflect Block: Kind of Awesome
2. Swat: Pretty Awesome
3. Pinned on the backboard: More Awesome
4. Catching a Shot: Bad as Hell.

So, if you believe people like the satisfaction that comes with catching an offensive player's shot and you believe they're not retarded enough to not understand the concept of gaining possession through completing an awesome play, then what other reason would there be for the catch block not happening more often other than the fact that it's really hard to pull off?

I have found this topic to be a difficult one to discuss at times just because it's sort of dumbfounding. The simple and obvious answer (that a catch block is very difficult to pull off) doesn't seem to be a satisfactory explanation, even though I feel like that should be the long and short of it. It's like asking, "Why don't more people tip-dunk more often? I know Vince Carter averaged multiple offensive rebounds per game in his prime. Why didn't he tip-dunk more of them? Doesn't he understand he'll get two points right away instead of having to reset the offense?"

I acknowledge the "have you ever even played basketball" line of reasoning is a little lame. And I definitely see how it could sound insulting. However, I think at least a couple of posters are just asking that question because it seems the answer to your query (why don't catch blocks happen more often?) would seem abundantly clear to anyone who's played the game for an extended period of time.

And to be clear, even when playing against 5th graders, you or me trying to catch shots isn't going to be the same as JaVale McGee trying to catch shots. He's way above the goal and his paws are huge. I think it'd be a more comparable scenario if we lowered the basket down to 8.5 feet and played against people our age using one of those mini-basketballs often handed out as prizes at county fairs. I've done it. And even on lowered rims with small basketballs, catching a shot attempt (without goaltending) is not a completely natural play to execute. It take a very unique set of circumstances to pull off.

And sure, you're saying, "Well of course it's not going to happen often for you. You're obviously not an NBA player with the hops and ability and general fundamental wherewithal of a Dwight Howard, JaVale McGee or DeAndre Jordan." At which point, I'd have to agree with you, which would then solidify my point. Even for athletic freaks, catching a blocked shot is very hard to come by, not to mention inefficient. Imagine the drop in Dennis Rodman's rebound rate if all he did was crash the glass and attempt a tip-dunk each play. Now imagine all the shots these big men wouldn't be able to reach or tip in the first place if they just spent the whole game looking to catch a shot.

Have you ever, really, really rejected someone before? As in, you blocked them so bad you had your entire wrist on the ball, or at least your entire hand? If so, did you ever stop to think about why, in retrospect, you didn't just grab the ball out of air with two hands instead? Or maybe cuffed it right there between your hand and your wrist? You were just trying to block the shot by any means, right? You weren't really worried about how you were blocking the shot as much as you were worried about whether you were going to block the shot at all, period.

This topic intrigues me because the concept appears so simple. It's like asking why the sky is blue.


I agree with a lot of this but remember.... I expanded the original idea. Not only lowered the standards tremendously... but mentioned controlled blocks. Let's not only focus in on catch blocks because my idea has shifted. I just noticed like I said after watching Wilt and Russell and even 90's centers footage.. that players have become quite frankly... stupid shot blockers. They are constantly going for the 5th row swat.... and rarely control it to themselves or a teammate. Back in earlier eras they ALWAYS controlled it because that was the original point of a block.
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:38 PM   #79
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
Isn't blocked shots coming more from perimeter players, not big men?

Are you messing with me lol?
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:58 PM   #80
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
I agree with a lot of this but remember.... I expanded the original idea. Not only lowered the standards tremendously... but mentioned controlled blocks. Let's not only focus in on catch blocks because my idea has shifted. I just noticed like I said after watching Wilt and Russell and even 90's centers footage.. that players have become quite frankly... stupid shot blockers. They are constantly going for the 5th row swat.... and rarely control it to themselves or a teammate. Back in earlier eras they ALWAYS controlled it because that was the original point of a block.
I'm still in the process of watching the Russell video. But in terms of 90's shotblockers, Hakeem and Robinson destroyed their fair share of shots too, not to mention Shaquille O'Neal. They definitely weren't just possession controlling "tappers". Sometimes it can appear that way, but light blocks are often more of a result of a player's inability to get more of a hand on the ball than anything they mentally chose to do.

It's an interesting notion to wonder why people can't just be like Bill Russell aka perhaps the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. His style was certainly unique in the manner with which he was able to afford to "hook block" attempts in certain situations. That is, he was great enough in comparison to his competition that he was able to accept a forthcoming block as a foregone conclusion and instead worry about where he wanted to block it.

I've always found the "block into the 3rd row" epidemic to be vastly overrated. Every single blocked shot by modern players is not an out-of-bounds violation. The truth is, even when Russell "tapped" blocks, there was not a guarantee his team was going to gain the rebound. Further, he swatted shots at times too (the chasedown on West in your clip at 1:25).

I have found there to be two extreme ways of thought that seem to go hand-in-hand regarding this subject. One thought is that every great shot-blocker in the 60's always controlled his blocks and always ensured his team would garner possession. The second thought is that every "great" shot-blocker today nearly always blocks shots into the 3rd row and his team never gains possession. Gaining possession doesn't have to occur only after a weak block:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3guuPba-I0

Further, here's a full Ben Wallace mixtape (it's labeled Top 5 blocks but it's not). Having watched Ben for the duration of his career, I don't think I'm alone in acknowledging that he blocked shots with supreme force. My question would be, in these limited clips, how many of these monster blocks end up in the Pistons' possession? And no, it doesn't count to watch his first block sail back to an opponent and assume the rest of them are going to as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuivG44plqQ

The results of Ben's rejections, as different as the blocks may look in comparison to Bill Russell's, are quite often the same. Can the argument be made that Bill kept even more in play than Ben and was able to aim even more to his teammates than Ben? Obviously. But it's not as if today's defensive world has come crumbling down to the point where top defenders appear to go out of their way to purposely provide their opponent with another possession.

Edit: I'll say this though, there's a lot more substance to your current question than there was when discussing the whole "catching" thing. The ideas of "catching" and "not blocking so hard" are terribly different from one another.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 09-17-2011 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:46 PM   #81
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

This thread is simply wrong without this epic Laphonso Ellis block

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVFSfRVzQ8s
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:13 PM   #82
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Quote:
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This thread is simply wrong without this epic Laphonso Ellis block

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVFSfRVzQ8s

For the love of God. That was downright nasty! Now that's how you block a shot.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:37 PM   #83
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

hmmm
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:32 AM   #84
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Fun clip - Kenyon Martin catching Dwyane Wade's layup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9g1o00oVVw
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Old 01-01-2014, 11:10 AM   #85
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Cuz it looks kewler mayne!
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:22 PM   #86
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

You know how hard that is?
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:49 PM   #87
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

poor clippersfan86, trapped in the realm of the banned forever
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:13 PM   #88
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat Like A Bosh
You know how hard that is?

It is tough to do, but certain guys excel at it, like Old Man Duncan. Case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEuu3NmF400

Someone actually did a study of the percentage of blocks recovered by the shot blocker, how many went to his team, and how many went to the opponent last season (no idea how the hell they even get this info):
Blocking Out of Bounds or to Opponents

Let's face it, out-of-bounds blocks are sexy. When an athletic player loads his spring-like legs and soars to confront an incoming scorer, swatting the ball into the stands at ludicrious speed, we love it. It is precisely this brand of athleticism for which most people enjoy watching the NBA. Statistically, though, these blocks, and blocks which are recovered by the opposing team, have the same value as an opponent offensive rebound. They allow the opponent a new possession, a new chance to score, and even the chance to set up a go-to inbound play. They are much less valuable than blocks which are recovered by the blocker or his teammates.

Tim Duncan also excels at blocking the ball to himself or his teammates. Below is a table with how each players blocks are recovered, courtesy of Evan Zamir of nbawowy.com. %Own is the percentage the player himself rebounds his block, %Team is the percentage a teammate rebounds his block, and %Opp is the percentage the other team recovers the block.

Player %Own %Team %Opp
Tim Duncan 29.6 34.5 35.9
Larry Sanders 19.3 36.0 44.7
Serge Ibaka 10.1 54.7 35.2
Roy Hibbert 17.8 48.5 33.7
Dwight Howard 16.7 42.7 40.6
Joakim Noah 15.0 47.4 37.6
Brook Lopez 11.6 47.1 41.3

Duncan's Opp% is 3rd lowest in this list, and his %Own is tremendous. Duncan recovers nearly a third of his blocks. When you consider how talented he is as an outlet passer, this is no insignificant feat.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2013/...er-of-the-year
So Timmy basically keeps about a 1/3 of the shots he blocks himself. It's a skill that the vast majority of big men do not possess. Just one of the many skills/nuances that have separated him from the pack
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:29 PM   #89
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Default Re: Why don't more players catch the ball instead of swatting it on defense?

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Originally Posted by Clippersfan86
I was just thinking about how we always see guys swat shots.. or block them in general... but half of the time.. they could of probably just grabbed and held onto the ball and controlled it rather than sending it out of bounds to the other team. Why don't more players just catch the ball? I know super athletic bigs like DJ, McGee and Dwight could easily do this. DeAndre got good this year at swatting it to teammates but why not just catch it?

I understand swatting into the 10th row gets the crowd and team going.. but it's also not a really smart basketball play.


If anyone on this board outed themselves as a non hooper the OP did with this post.
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