Originally Posted by RaininThrees
UGH. Morris and Stieb were very very similar pitchers. Morris' "legend" precedes him.
Jack Morris, career: 3.90 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 3.94 FIP, 56.9 fWAR, 5.83 K/9, 3.27 BB/9, 0.92 HR/9 (3824 IP)
Dave Stieb, career: 3.44 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 3.82 FIP, 49.5 fWAR, 5.19 K/9, 3.21 BB/9, 0.70 HR/9 (2895 IP)
Tell me that one of those 2 pitchers is significantly better than the other.
Sorry let me make my point perfectly clear.
If you say NO RAPTOR
deserves a retired jersey - fine. I see that point of view. Make sense. No arguement.
If you say we should retire a Raptor Jersey and/or who should we retire ?
I say Alvin Williams and maybe Mo Pete. Mostly becuase they are good guys. Not because they have hall of fame credentials or they were great players. Merely because they were good franchise guys with some franchise records and didnt burn the team like Vince, like TMac, like Bosh.
Furthermore that is typical
of how all Toronto sports franchise work.
(It is not uncommon in other cities franchises where they lack a lot of recent championships).
That is how the BlueJays work - see Steib, Fernadez, et al !
That is how the Maple Leafs work - see Wendel Clarke !
This is not about Jack Morris verse David Cone verses Dave Steib. NONE
of them are in the hall of fame. Only one of them have their jerseys retired by the Jays (Circle of Excellence) - it is Dave Steib because he was a good franchise guy. In fact I completely agree with you - they are all basically mediocre. My point is they are mediocre. They are not
Hall of Fame and only
Steib is in the Circle of Excellence because he was the "franchise guy".
Wendel Clarke may make the Hall of Fame. I have no clue. Dale Hawerchuck and Joe N'dycke are in so why not.
The point is Joe N'dycke actually won a Stanely Cup and has 1126 career points
. Wendel Clark has 564 career points
and no stanley cup yet the Maple Leafs retired Wendel's jersey number
. They both played for the Leafs. But Clark hold some franchise records for PIM and games and blah blah blah and still they retired his jeresy. Because he was a franchise guy. Because he was a mediocre player.....
Again if the Raptors retire none - I get that compeltely.
If they were to retire a jeresy or two its not laugable
to suggest Alvin and Mo are "elgibale". Simply put there are so many example
in Toronto sports you have to be blind or too young to even remember the players I am talking about. Its NOT
laughable to suggest those guys - its typical
. Unless you dont follow sports. Unless you dont know anything about Toronto.
Celebrating mediocrity is a Toronto sports tradition.
As for the last - well I remember Jack M and David Cone winning games down the stretch to clinch the world series. I remember Steib choking or not getting the job done. I was at those games. I had tickets and they were hard to come by in those days.
Here is what wikipedia says - not me.
Dave Steib 176 wins tied for 163 on all time list
7× All-Star selection (1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1990)
1982 AL TSN Pitcher of the Year
Pitched a no-hitter on September 2, 1990
Toronto Blue Jays Level of Excellence
Stieb holds career records for Toronto pitchers in wins, games started, shutouts, strikeouts, and a variety of other categories. Stieb appeared in seven All-Star games, also a Blue Jays team record.
Jack Morris – 254 wins tied for 42 on all time list
5× All-Star selection (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1991)
4× World Series champion (1984, 1991, 1992, 1993)
1991 World Series MVP
2× Babe Ruth Award winner (1984, 1991)
1981 AL TSN Pitcher of the Year
Following the 1991 season, Morris spurned the Minnesota Twins, his hometown team, and signed with the Toronto Blue Jays. He earned 21 wins for the second time in his career (and the first ever 20-win season for a Blue Jays pitcher), though he rode the wave of superior run support from his offense, given his 4.04 ERA that year. The Blue Jays reached the 1992 World Series against the Braves. Despite a subpar World Series performance, he won a third championship ring as Toronto beat Atlanta in six games. He won a fourth in 1993, as the Blue Jays repeated as World Champions with a victory over the Philadelphia Phillies in six games. Morris did not pitch in the postseason, however.
David Cone - 196 wins tied for 124th on the list
5× All-Star (1988, 1992, 1994, 1997, 1999)
5× World Series champion (1992, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000)
1994 AL Cy Young Award
1998 Hutch Award
Pitched a perfect game on July 18, 1999
With Toronto Cone was 4-3, with a 2.55 ERA and 47 strikeouts. Combined with the 214 strikeouts he had with the Mets, his 261 strikeouts led the major leagues and were a career high. Cone headed to the post-season for the second time in his career as the Blue Jays won the American League East. The Jays defeated the Oakland Athletics in the 1992 American League Championship Series, and the Atlanta Braves in the World Series to give Cone his first World Series ring, and become the first Canadian team to win the World Series. For his part, Cone went 1-1 with a 3.22 ERA in the post-season.