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Old 11-16-2011, 01:38 PM   #31
Jballer
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMason
A team that has been as sh!t as ours has for as long as it has doesn't deserve any retired jerseys. Be real people.

Okay that is an arguement that holds water. None. Fair enough. I wouldnt take exception to your POV.



I was arguing the point "if you retired a number - who". I said " the one guy I would seriously consider "

Its certainly not Vince, AD, and Bosh. Especially because of the BS. Those were the sugegstions that hold no merrit.

Read wiki or any Raptors Franchise records and in particular play off records - not withstanding there have been few enough of those games.

Most points in playoffs :
#3 Alvin tied with Bosh

Most Assists in playoffs:
#2 Alvin

Most Steals in playoffs:
#2 Alvin

Looking through the regular season records we see MoPete has the most games, the most minutes, and is perhaps the best 3 point shooter the team although he had a lot more attempts.

___

As for Stieb compared to Alvin or McDonald... well beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Stieb grew up a Blue Jay and didnt win a damn thing until Jack Morris and David Cone showed up as free agent pitchers to win world series and playoff strethes. They were the aces - not Stieb

In fact I would agrue Stieb was one of the major factors in end of season blow ups when the Tiger eclipsed the league leading Blue Jays twice. I specifcally recall Stiebs numbers down the strech in 1984.

Bottom line is Steib is no hall of famer and had his jersey retired cause he was: (1) a nice team guy, (2) did stuff for the organization, (3) and had a half assed attempt to be a comeback pitcher and pitching coach. He got there due to all the stuff I said Alvin should get credit for.

I note the Blue Jays havent retired Roger Clemens number. Nor Ricky Henderson or Dave Winfield although one can argue they were the players that put the Jays over top. They had the talent and petigre to make Hall of Fame tho rocket Roger may not make it.

How about retiring Wendel Clarke's Leaf Jersey ? Hmm Hall of Fame in the NHL ? That frankly is iffy based on total points. Is he the best Captain to ever wear a Leaf jersey ? Not by a mile. Ted Kennedy. Davie Keon.

Did Wendel win a Stanely Cup ? Not that I recall. Obviously NOT with Toronto.

So WClark gets his loafs blue and white retired because he is : (1) a good franchise guy, (2) holds a couple of team records including most punches thrown against the Red Wings, and (3) is now a good front office franchise guy.

I havent seen the Leafs retire Joe N'dykes jeresey. he played here.

Seriously if you believe none of the above fine.

But given what all the franchise around the league do - laughing at my suggestion of Alvin or Mo is like walking through life with blinders on. You obviously dont follow the Toronto sports scene that close. There are dozens of examples of what I am talking about.

This is why I asked if some of these posters live in TO cause you see it everyday on the local news and the crappy subway newspapers. These are the types of guys with their jerseys retired.

Last edited by Jballer : 11-16-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:10 PM   #32
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Since when did players get there numbers retired for being a fan favorite role player that was good in the community? This is such a stupid discussion I can't even understand it. Alvin Williams does not deserve his number to be retired. Neither does Peterson, Nesterovic, Calderon or any of those dusters you guys mentioned.
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:07 PM   #33
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

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Originally Posted by Toni
Since when did players get there numbers retired for being a fan favorite role player that was good in the community? This is such a stupid discussion I can't even understand it. Alvin Williams does not deserve his number to be retired. Neither does Peterson, Nesterovic, Calderon or any of those dusters you guys mentioned.



"Excuse me?"
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:24 PM   #34
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

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"Excuse me?"

Sorry Rasho.. I didn't mean it
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:16 AM   #35
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
Since when did players get there numbers retired for being a fan favorite role player that was good in the community? This is such a stupid discussion I can't even understand it. Alvin Williams does not deserve his number to be retired. Neither does Peterson, Nesterovic, Calderon or any of those dusters you guys mentioned.

+1.

Those guys are some of my personal favourite players that played for the Raptors, but to get their numbers raised up because of what they did off the court and anything else... it isn’t going to happen and it’s not even debatable.

No player for the foreseeable future deserves their jersey retired.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:43 AM   #36
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Forget retiring Air Rasho's jersey. Lets give the guy a statue!!
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:41 AM   #37
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
Since when did players get there numbers retired for being a fan favorite role player that was good in the community? This is such a stupid discussion I can't even understand it. Alvin Williams does not deserve his number to be retired. Neither does Peterson, Nesterovic, Calderon or any of those dusters you guys mentioned.

I know, this is insane. Dave Stieb and Wendel Clark were both allstars (Stieb holding the Jays record @ 7), and both did great things for this franchise (Clark was the friggin captain and great leader, scored 30+ goals 6 times in his career and Stieb like I said had a no-hitter and two one-hitters) and most importantly rocked epic mustaches (an unknown key condition for jersey retirement). Alvin Williams and Mo Pete, God bless them, were nothing compared to those two and never sniffed comparable accomplishments. Case closed.

Guys who's records include 3rd most XXX in a playoff game just because they played minimal roles long-term for the teams that actually made the playoffs do not deserve retired jerseys. Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the damn Donkey they rode on.

Rasho on the other-hand should be deified.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:50 AM   #38
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

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Originally Posted by Jballer
Certain :Alvin Williams



fully support this
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:22 AM   #39
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

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I'd approve if this .gif was given its own jumbotron in the ACC somewhere.
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:55 PM   #40
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jballer

Stieb grew up a Blue Jay and didnt win a damn thing until Jack Morris and David Cone showed up as free agent pitchers to win world series and playoff strethes. They were the aces - not Stieb


UGH. Morris and Stieb were very very similar pitchers. Morris' "legend" precedes him.

Jack Morris, career: 3.90 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 3.94 FIP, 56.9 fWAR, 5.83 K/9, 3.27 BB/9, 0.92 HR/9 (3824 IP)
Dave Stieb, career: 3.44 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 3.82 FIP, 49.5 fWAR, 5.19 K/9, 3.21 BB/9, 0.70 HR/9 (2895 IP)

Tell me that one of those 2 pitchers is significantly better than the other.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
Since when did players get there numbers retired for being a fan favorite role player that was good in the community? This is such a stupid discussion I can't even understand it. Alvin Williams does not deserve his number to be retired. Neither does Peterson, Nesterovic, Calderon or any of those dusters you guys mentioned.

yep. you are absolutely right.
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Old 11-24-2011, 04:22 PM   #42
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

This made me feel real old. So much has happened since the time they played in TO.
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:36 AM   #43
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Was nice seeing oakley but I honestly didn't care about the other two. My friend filled me in on some of what they said, did tmac/carter say they would have won a championship had they stayed in TO together?
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Old 11-25-2011, 06:48 AM   #44
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

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Was nice seeing oakley but I honestly didn't care about the other two. My friend filled me in on some of what they said, did tmac/carter say they would have won a championship had they stayed in TO together?
Yeah. Someone posted the youtube link for it in this thread if you wanted to see it. But yeah T-mac said that had he been there for the Philly series they would've won and gone on to the finals.. And that he does wonder "what if" even though he doesn't regret leaving Toronto. And Oak said he thinks that team would've won too if management had kept them together.
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Old 11-25-2011, 03:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Carter and T-Mac on OTR Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaininThrees
UGH. Morris and Stieb were very very similar pitchers. Morris' "legend" precedes him.

Jack Morris, career: 3.90 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 3.94 FIP, 56.9 fWAR, 5.83 K/9, 3.27 BB/9, 0.92 HR/9 (3824 IP)
Dave Stieb, career: 3.44 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 3.82 FIP, 49.5 fWAR, 5.19 K/9, 3.21 BB/9, 0.70 HR/9 (2895 IP)

Tell me that one of those 2 pitchers is significantly better than the other.


Sorry let me make my point perfectly clear.

If you say NO RAPTOR deserves a retired jersey - fine. I see that point of view. Make sense. No arguement.

If you say we should retire a Raptor Jersey and/or who should we retire ? I say Alvin Williams and maybe Mo Pete. Mostly becuase they are good guys. Not because they have hall of fame credentials or they were great players. Merely because they were good franchise guys with some franchise records and didnt burn the team like Vince, like TMac, like Bosh.

Furthermore that is typical of how all Toronto sports franchise work.
(It is not uncommon in other cities franchises where they lack a lot of recent championships).

That is how the BlueJays work - see Steib, Fernadez, et al !
That is how the Maple Leafs work - see Wendel Clarke !

This is not about Jack Morris verse David Cone verses Dave Steib. NONE of them are in the hall of fame. Only one of them have their jerseys retired by the Jays (Circle of Excellence) - it is Dave Steib because he was a good franchise guy. In fact I completely agree with you - they are all basically mediocre. My point is they are mediocre. They are not Hall of Fame and only Steib is in the Circle of Excellence because he was the "franchise guy".

Wendel Clarke may make the Hall of Fame. I have no clue. Dale Hawerchuck and Joe N'dycke are in so why not.
The point is Joe N'dycke actually won a Stanely Cup and has 1126 career points. Wendel Clark has 564 career points and no stanley cup yet the Maple Leafs retired Wendel's jersey number. They both played for the Leafs. But Clark hold some franchise records for PIM and games and blah blah blah and still they retired his jeresy. Because he was a franchise guy. Because he was a mediocre player.....

Again if the Raptors retire none - I get that compeltely.

If they were to retire a jeresy or two its not laugable to suggest Alvin and Mo are "elgibale". Simply put there are so many example in Toronto sports you have to be blind or too young to even remember the players I am talking about. Its NOT laughable to suggest those guys - its typical. Unless you dont follow sports. Unless you dont know anything about Toronto.

Celebrating mediocrity is a Toronto sports tradition.

---

As for the last - well I remember Jack M and David Cone winning games down the stretch to clinch the world series. I remember Steib choking or not getting the job done. I was at those games. I had tickets and they were hard to come by in those days.

Here is what wikipedia says - not me.

Dave Steib 176 wins tied for 163 on all time list
7 All-Star selection (1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1990)
1982 AL TSN Pitcher of the Year
Pitched a no-hitter on September 2, 1990
Toronto Blue Jays Level of Excellence
Stieb holds career records for Toronto pitchers in wins, games started, shutouts, strikeouts, and a variety of other categories. Stieb appeared in seven All-Star games, also a Blue Jays team record.

Jack Morris – 254 wins tied for 42 on all time list
5 All-Star selection (1981, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1991)
4 World Series champion (1984, 1991, 1992, 1993)
1991 World Series MVP
2 Babe Ruth Award winner (1984, 1991)
1981 AL TSN Pitcher of the Year
Following the 1991 season, Morris spurned the Minnesota Twins, his hometown team, and signed with the Toronto Blue Jays. He earned 21 wins for the second time in his career (and the first ever 20-win season for a Blue Jays pitcher), though he rode the wave of superior run support from his offense, given his 4.04 ERA that year. The Blue Jays reached the 1992 World Series against the Braves. Despite a subpar World Series performance, he won a third championship ring as Toronto beat Atlanta in six games. He won a fourth in 1993, as the Blue Jays repeated as World Champions with a victory over the Philadelphia Phillies in six games. Morris did not pitch in the postseason, however.

David Cone - 196 wins tied for 124th on the list
5 All-Star (1988, 1992, 1994, 1997, 1999)
5 World Series champion (1992, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000)
1994 AL Cy Young Award
1998 Hutch Award
Pitched a perfect game on July 18, 1999
With Toronto Cone was 4-3, with a 2.55 ERA and 47 strikeouts. Combined with the 214 strikeouts he had with the Mets, his 261 strikeouts led the major leagues and were a career high. Cone headed to the post-season for the second time in his career as the Blue Jays won the American League East. The Jays defeated the Oakland Athletics in the 1992 American League Championship Series, and the Atlanta Braves in the World Series to give Cone his first World Series ring, and become the first Canadian team to win the World Series. For his part, Cone went 1-1 with a 3.22 ERA in the post-season.

Last edited by Jballer : 11-25-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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