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Old 12-04-2011, 11:27 AM   #46
chips93
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by TheJuice31
And as it turned out, LeBron was named one of the three captains on that very same Olympic team.

im not saying he's a cancer or anything like that, but personally, i dont think highly of him as a leader.

a team usually takes on the personality of its leader. and i think bron just wants to have fun a bit too much. all the dancing on the sidelines, photo gimmick before games, things like this, they might be fun, and help everybody get along, but when the going got tough for those cleveland teams, they didnt know how to respond.

in a nutshell i think those cleveland teams were front running teams, and i think lebron deserves some blame for that.

as well as the coaching, well i think its either his style of play, or his attitude, but there is something wrong, that eight years into his career, he still doesnt seem to be great at fitting into an offense. it showed in last years finals, when he could get to the hoop, he was pretty ineffective.

lebron is no cancer, but his leadership leaves a lot to be desired.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:33 AM   #47
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by JMT
And every other post on ISH is based on personal, first hand knowledge and/or well qualified, informed basketball insight honed by years of experience.

He never had the experience of a college team where it's possible that a coach or veteran players could have created a situation where he actually had to defer to someone. Certainly never had to do it in high school. Folks in Cleveland were pretty blunt in their assessment that James tuned out the coaching staff and did pretty much what he wanted. And there were instances last year (the brush off/push past Spoelstra comes to mind) where there were questions about how receptive he was to coaching

Never called him a cancer. But when a guy has never had to yield to anyone, and is so convinced that his way is the right way, it's hard to for anyone...especially a role player teammate, regardless how well respected he is by the rest of the league...to break through.

Rasheed wallace, isiah rider,rodman,demarcus cousins,stephen jackson, all went to college but are locker room cancers. how is this, if college is supposed to groom players, it failed here.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:39 AM   #48
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by Theoo's Daddy
Rasheed wallace, isiah rider,rodman,demarcus cousins,stephen jackson, all went to college but are locker room cancers. how is this, if college is supposed to groom players, it failed here.

He never had the experience of a college team where it's possible that a coach or veteran players could have created a situation where he actually had to defer to someone.

Why would you highlight that sentence if you don't understand the meaning of "where it's possible"?

Yes, hand picking guys who went to college and still were locker room cancers certainly proves that nobody ever benefitted from that college experence.

And in the case of Stephen Jackson, Butler Community College is well known as a developmental proving ground for young players. Five examples and one of them didn't even attend a 4 year school.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:41 AM   #49
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chips93
im not saying he's a cancer or anything like that, but personally, i dont think highly of him as a leader.

a team usually takes on the personality of its leader. and i think bron just wants to have fun a bit too much. all the dancing on the sidelines, photo gimmick before games, things like this, they might be fun, and help everybody get along, but when the going got tough for those cleveland teams, they didnt know how to respond.

in a nutshell i think those cleveland teams were front running teams, and i think lebron deserves some blame for that.

as well as the coaching, well i think its either his style of play, or his attitude, but there is something wrong, that eight years into his career, he still doesnt seem to be great at fitting into an offense. it showed in last years finals, when he could get to the hoop, he was pretty ineffective.

lebron is no cancer, but his leadership leaves a lot to be desired.

I see where you're coming from, but I'm more of the school of thought that the construction of those Cavs teams was better suited for the regular season and in the playoffs, they simply lost to better teams where matchups were magnified so much more. Take 08 and 10 vs. Boston: LeBron's the best player on the floor. How many Celtics do we have to name until we get the next best Cavalier on the court? Mo Williams, who doesn't even so much as register as one of the 75 best players in the league (I know he was only around for the 10 series)? I don't think those teams were front-runners so much as a team like Boston was just deeper and had more avenues for production than a Cleveland team that had only one notable offensive threat, albeit a damn good one.

In regards to how he fits into the scheme of an offense, it's a valid question but I think it doesn't help your case when you say it was exposed in the finals. LeBron struggles to fit into an offense, yet still managed to come within two wins of a title on a team that played 3-on-5 every night with only 10 months of experience together under their belts? I dunno, I'm actually pretty impressed by that. The entire Heat experiment was still a work in progress last year as far as roles go...yet they came within two wins of a championship on a roster that possessed the best 1-3 players and the worst 4-12. For LeBron, it's more mental than anything but he's still just 26. He's got plenty of time and will have his chances.

Last edited by TheJuice31 : 12-04-2011 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:55 AM   #50
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuice31
I see where you're coming from, but I'm more of the school of thought that the construction of those Cavs teams was better suited for the regular season and in the playoffs, they simply lost to better teams where matchups were magnified so much more. Take 08 and 10 vs. Boston: LeBron's the best player on the floor. How many Celtics do we have to name until we get the next best Cavalier on the court? Mo Williams, who doesn't even so much as register as one of the 75 best players in the league (I know he was only around for the 10 series)? I don't think those teams were front-runners so much as a team like Boston was just deeper and had more avenues for production than a Cleveland team that had only one notable offensive threat, albeit a damn good one.

In regards to how he fits into the scheme of an offense, it's a valid question but I think it doesn't help your case when you say it was exposed in the finals. LeBron struggles to fit into an offense, yet still managed to come within two wins of a title on a team that played 3-on-5 every night with only 10 months of experience together under their belts? I dunno, I'm actually pretty impressed by that. The entire Heat experiment was still a work in progress last year as far as roles go...yet they came within two wins of a championship on a roster that possessed the best 1-3 players and the worst 4-12. For LeBron, it's more mental than anything but he's still just 26. He's got plenty of time and will have his chances.

nice post. i agree with parts. where i disagree is pretty subjective. anyway;

i think part of the reason those cavalier teams lacked a great second or third guy was because of bron's style. larry hughes was a very productive player before he came to cleveland. then he had to share hhe ball with bron and he suffered.

so i think lebron's style deserves some blame for the lack of talent he was surrounded with.

as for the finals, obviously they got close, and it wasnt a bad season by any means, but i think with the talent that they had, if lebron was a more cohesive player, they could have won. lebron's lack of off-ball play was poor regardless of the result of the season. other things negated it to an extent. his great on-ball play for one.

nice to have a discussion about bron without it turning into a stupid hate-fest

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Old 12-04-2011, 12:06 PM   #51
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by chips93
i think part of the reason those cavalier teams lacked a great second or third guy was because of bron's style. larry hughes was a very productive player before he came to cleveland. then he had to share hhe ball with bron and he suffered.

so i think lebron's style deserves some blame for the lack of talent he was surrounded with.

How did Larry Hughes do after he left Cleveland? How he played in Cleveland was basically who he was throughout his career. He had one good year in Washington, but otherwise he was just a 12-15 point, 40% guy.

I'm sorry, but this "LeBron was a ball hog and froze his teammates out in Cleveland" whitewash is utter crap. The guy was everything for that team and the most unselfish superstar in basketball, other than maybe Steve Nash.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:44 PM   #52
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by Go Getter
Tbh though a lineup with Lebron running point, Wade at the 2, and SB at the three is pretty sick.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:10 PM   #53
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

This is the dumbest shit ive ever heard.

They dont need Shane Battier. They need a passing PG.

Why bring in a defensive minded player, to already one of the most defensive teams in the league?

If anything the heat need a PG or a C. Unless they are just trying to get whatever they can fit in.

But damn, i think this is stupid.

I dont want lebron running point, greatest player in the Nba right now.

But 1 fact many of you ignore. You have to be smart to be a good pg. Lebron is not. He can pass and he has handle. But he often, OFTEN, makes poor decisions.


The heat need someone to run their offense and make wade and lebron score off the ball more. it will be easier for them and it will increase their percentage allowing other players on the team to take some shots too.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:15 PM   #54
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by Fatstogie
This is the dumbest shit ive ever heard.

They dont need Shane Battier. They need a passing PG.

Why bring in a defensive minded player, to already one of the most defensive teams in the league?

If anything the heat need a PG or a C. Unless they are just trying to get whatever they can fit in.

But damn, i think this is stupid.

I dont want lebron running point, greatest player in the Nba right now.

But 1 fact many of you ignore. You have to be smart to be a good pg. Lebron is not. He can pass and he has handle. But he often, OFTEN, makes poor decisions.


The heat need someone to run their offense and make wade and lebron score off the ball more. it will be easier for them and it will increase their percentage allowing other players on the team to take some shots too.

Good luck seeing that happen. I agree that's what they need to learn to do, but Wade and LeBron pound the ball way too much.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:36 PM   #55
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by Meticode
Good luck seeing that happen. I agree that's what they need to learn to do, but Wade and LeBron pound the ball way too much.
Lebron did it more in cleveland he made cuts to the rim more often.

If those fools would take easy baskets isntead of trying to "put on a show" theyd score ALOT more.

Lets be honest. The heats offense was PITIFUL last year. Not even close to their capability.
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:00 PM   #56
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chips93
nice post. i agree with parts. where i disagree is pretty subjective. anyway;

i think part of the reason those cavalier teams lacked a great second or third guy was because of bron's style. larry hughes was a very productive player before he came to cleveland. then he had to share hhe ball with bron and he suffered.

so i think lebron's style deserves some blame for the lack of talent he was surrounded with.

as for the finals, obviously they got close, and it wasnt a bad season by any means, but i think with the talent that they had, if lebron was a more cohesive player, they could have won. lebron's lack of off-ball play was poor regardless of the result of the season. other things negated it to an extent. his great on-ball play for one.

nice to have a discussion about bron without it turning into a stupid hate-fest


Individual possession of the basketball is a zero-sum game. If you have the ball that means your four teammates do not. And the way a team distributes its offensive possessions has consequences. If one player has the ball most of the time/ generates most of the plays, his teammates may not respond well in pressure moments when the star is struggling/ in foul trouble/ injured.

Also important are roles within the offense, offensive sets, and getting to individual spots on the floor. Players have certain comfort zones and when a player like Hughes is pushed out of his comfort zone and in fact has somebody else in James occupying it, it's not surprising that he'd struggle.

My thinking is that it takes a player the level of Wade, or perhaps any superstar, to be able to excel at his own game while playing next to James. Lower-tier stars or borderline all-star-level players may suffer, at least statistically, because LeBron (pre-2011) monopolizes so much of the offense, that they can struggle all season to establish that comfort zone and to find their rhythm.


....Topic: this move doesn't make sense to me. The holes are at C and PG. I can live with Chalmers remaining at point. I can not live with Joel Anthony starting the season at center. I don't see what Battier adds that is not already more than covered by having James/Bosh/Haslem in the rotation. Keeping Battier also means saying goodbye to Miller, which I guess may have been planned anyway, but then that leaves Jones and House as your only shooting specialists, and if there's one thing Miller/Jones/House showed last year is that it's good to have a roster of shooters because at least two of them will probably be going through a cold spell at any one time.

I understand the point about getting James more rest, but realistically, how many fewer minutes is he going to play? He's not going to reduce his minutes by ten per game. He might play a few minutes less, but that's it. And is getting LBJ a better defensive backup (than Miller) is that really more important than addressing the positions where the Heat is most deficient, particularly center?
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Old 12-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #57
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

I don't really get it either why Miami wants Battier. Imo they need to get a decent Center and resign Chalmers... But if they signed Battier then Pat Riley sure would have his reasons. it's gonna be difficult to find a Center anyway...
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Old 12-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #58
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

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Originally Posted by Theoo's Daddy
Rasheed wallace, isiah rider,rodman,demarcus cousins,stephen jackson, all went to college but are locker room cancers. how is this, if college is supposed to groom players, it failed here.

Stereotypical BS. College schooling can instill only so much discipline.
A personality needs to work within the teams chemistry.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:26 PM   #59
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

Battier's down to Miami, Memphis, Indy, and Toronto.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/1...dful-of-teams/

Really couldn't ask for a better guy to set an example for Paul George. And Granger.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:35 PM   #60
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Default Re: Heat closing in on Shane Battier!

Then amnesty Mike Miller please.
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