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Old 06-22-2006, 04:27 PM   #46
Knoe Itawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
Wade is only a 3rd year player and he was able to lead a team full of grizzled veterans to a championship...they all followed wade's lead.....

Kobe had that chance in 2004, but nobody followed him and came out looking like a fool.....

Exactly. All these Kobe Groupies want to pretend that you could just plug Kobe into Wade's position and the results would be the same when:

A. Kobe's BEEN in Wade's positon and when he tried to take over, he got his ass handed to him by the same Pistons that Wade abused. Karl Malone's injury made Kobe shoot 39%, turn the ball over, make stupid decisions and have his assists and rebounding go down? G4t out of here with the excuses. Malone didn't make Kobe play like a bum in that series.

B. Kobe has NEVER averaged 35ppg in the Finals, so why should I assume that he could do it now?

C. If Kobe couldn't make it work on LA with Shaq, why would he magically be able to make it work on the Heat?

Nah, groupies are just using the "put Kobe on there" thing because that's all they have left. Wade did something Kobe NEVER did and it kills them.

Personally, I don't believe kobe would have gotten past Detroit. But it doesn't matter, because Wade has a title as MVP of a team, and a Finals MVP trophy and Kobe does NOT.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:41 PM   #47
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Kobe had that chance in 2004, but nobody followed him and came out looking like a fool.....

Disagree. Kobe in 2004 had a Shaq who was in decline, but unwilling to admit it, or to accept a lesser role as the focal point. So, in those instances when Kobe tried to take over games, particularly those games that they lost, the analysis tended to be that "they're not getting the ball to Shaq enough." Combined with Shaq's loud crying about needing the ball more and a lot of armchair psychoanalysis from stupid people about Kobe only caring about his shots, this gave the impression that Kobe was sabotaging the team, when in fact he was trying to do what was needed to get W's, namely, take over the bulk of the scoring load for a less effective, less dominant Shaq.

You actually heard the same kind of thing early on in this series, when the Heat were down there was a lot of talk about them having to adjust their gameplan to dump the ball down low. In fact, it was only over the course of the series that it became clear that Wade was driving the offense. Shaq's meek acceptance of this (combined with a Wade-adoring media that assumed the best (that Wade wanted to win instead of sabotage Shaq/put up a lot of points etc.) had a lot to do with how things are now viewed in hindsight.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Laker Logic
Disagree. Kobe in 2004 had a Shaq who was in decline, but unwilling to admit it, or to accept a lesser role as the focal point. So, in those instances when Kobe tried to take over games, particularly those games that they lost, the analysis tended to be that "they're not getting the ball to Shaq enough." Combined with Shaq's loud crying about needing the ball more and a lot of armchair psychoanalysis from stupid people about Kobe only caring about his shots, this gave the impression that Kobe was sabotaging the team, when in fact he was trying to do what was needed to get W's, namely, take over the bulk of the scoring load for a less effective, less dominant Shaq.

You actually heard the same kind of thing early on in this series, when the Heat were down there was a lot of talk about them having to adjust their gameplan to dump the ball down low. In fact, it was only over the course of the series that it became clear that Wade was driving the offense. Shaq's meek acceptance of this (combined with a Wade-adoring media that assumed the best (that Wade wanted to win instead of sabotage Shaq/put up a lot of points etc.) had a lot to do with how things are now viewed in hindsight.

What apologist nonsense (as usual). Anything to excuse his p!ss poor INEXCUSABLE finals performance while at the same time saying what Wade did essentially "wasn't all that". Disgusting.

Kobe tanked in the Finals when he tried to take over as "the man". Wade did not. But of course, there HAS to be some long drawn out verbage about why this didn't actually happen.
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:49 PM   #49
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Disagree. Kobe in 2004 had a Shaq who was in decline, but unwilling to admit it, or to accept a lesser role as the focal point. So, in those instances when Kobe tried to take over games, particularly those games that they lost, the analysis tended to be that "they're not getting the ball to Shaq enough." Combined with Shaq's loud crying about needing the ball more and a lot of armchair psychoanalysis from stupid people about Kobe only caring about his shots, this gave the impression that Kobe was sabotaging the team, when in fact he was trying to do what was needed to get W's, namely, take over the bulk of the scoring load for a less effective, less dominant Shaq.

You actually heard the same kind of thing early on in this series, when the Heat were down there was a lot of talk about them having to adjust their gameplan to dump the ball down low. In fact, it was only over the course of the series that it became clear that Wade was driving the offense. Shaq's meek acceptance of this (combined with a Wade-adoring media that assumed the best (that Wade wanted to win instead of sabotage Shaq/put up a lot of points etc.) had a lot to do with how things are now viewed in hindsight.

agreed
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:53 PM   #50
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I love how when Loki writes a 3-page dissertation on Jordan, you fellate him for his "detailed" response, but whenever I write more than a paragraph, you dismiss it as "drawn out verbiage," (of course without bothering to address it substantively). You can't see me Knoe, stick to ISH small fry and pass-through trolls.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:00 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker Logic
I love how when Loki writes a 3-page dissertation on Jordan, you fellate him for his "detailed" response, but whenever I write more than a paragraph, you dismiss it as "drawn out verbiage," (of course without bothering to address it substantively). You can't see me Knoe, stick to ISH small fry and pass-through trolls.

You are a an apologist. There's always some garbage excuse as to why Bryant fails, whereas for Wade its another story.

Bottom line is Kobe tanked in the Finals. there is no way to slip slide, spin or whatever your way out of it. It doesn't require a lot of nonsense verbage. he failed MISERABLY against the Pistons and that's that.

Wade abused them (two years in a row actually but he got injured last year) and went on to capture the ship with a better Finals performance than Kobe' EVER had and with a far inferior Shaq to any Shaq Kobe's ever had.

No way to slip slide spin or whatever out of THAT either you pseudo intellectual groupie.
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:35 PM   #52
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Shaq was not at the point where he needed to defer to anyone in 2004
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Old 06-22-2006, 05:53 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by GothamKnight
Shaq was not at the point where he needed to defer to anyone in 2004

Nonsense. He was in worse shape, and less motivated than he is now. If you accept the obvious, that he has declined markedly, you can't just pretend it happened overnight.

Shaq needed to defer more to Kobe in 2004, but couldn't accept it. Not as much as he deferred to Wade this year, but more than he was willing to then.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:10 PM   #54
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You are a an apologist. There's always some garbage excuse as to why Bryant fails, whereas for Wade its another story.

Bottom line is Kobe tanked in the Finals. there is no way to slip slide, spin or whatever your way out of it. It doesn't require a lot of nonsense verbage. he failed MISERABLY against the Pistons and that's that.

Wade abused them (two years in a row actually but he got injured last year) and went on to capture the ship with a better Finals performance than Kobe' EVER had and with a far inferior Shaq to any Shaq Kobe's ever had.

No way to slip slide spin or whatever out of THAT either you pseudo intellectual groupie.

...and you have the nerve to wonder why every thread with Kobe's name in it ends up devolving into nonsense and why the mods are dumping them all together.

You are criminally stupid.

Last edited by Laker Logic : 06-22-2006 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
Wade is only a 3rd year player and he was able to lead a team full of grizzled veterans to a championship...they all followed wade's lead.....

Kobe had that chance in 2004, but nobody followed him and came out looking like a fool.....

That year Kobe wasn't that good. He was the colorado Kobe. He gets a free pass that season cuz he had other things on his mind. This year he is way better then he was that season. You put this years version of Kobe in that series then the lakers win.
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Old 06-22-2006, 06:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoe Itawl
You are a an apologist. There's always some garbage excuse as to why Bryant fails, whereas for Wade its another story.

Bottom line is Kobe tanked in the Finals. there is no way to slip slide, spin or whatever your way out of it. It doesn't require a lot of nonsense verbage. he failed MISERABLY against the Pistons and that's that.

Wade abused them (two years in a row actually but he got injured last year) and went on to capture the ship with a better Finals performance than Kobe' EVER had and with a far inferior Shaq to any Shaq Kobe's ever had.

No way to slip slide spin or whatever out of THAT either you pseudo intellectual groupie.

Wade can win the championship in the middle of a **** case? Kobe that season was one fourth as good as he is this season. This years version of kobe on that team wins the ship no doubt.
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Old 06-23-2006, 03:13 AM   #57
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I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.



LakerLogic, I hear you. However, the fact is that all the accusations flying around on Kobe in 2004 were due to the fact that he did NOT defer to Shaq, tried to take over games, and FAILED. It's not like Shaq was running the Laker's offense, Kobe almost always had the ball in his hands before it got to Shaq. And he chose to try take over games by himself, and simply FAILED (even if you judge things strictly on individual performance, Wade has single-handedly destroyed the Pistons, Kobe was never able to do that).

On the other hand, I do think Kobe was not really himself during the 2004 Finals. I don't know if he tanked or he just wasn't feeling it; but yeah, if Kobe was playing on the 2006 Heat and he got along with Shaq, they would've had a decent chance of winning it all (way too many intangibles to be certain about anything like this, but with all my love for Wade, Kobe is not getting the respect he deserves for the level he's played at this season).
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Old 06-23-2006, 03:57 AM   #58
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The great thing about Phil, is his opinion is always rational and objective, never influenced by his own attachment or emotion, that is the beauty of Zen.

You train yourself to detach your own wants and desires from things outside you control, after years of fine tuning, your opnion is based only on objective, critical observation, not fleeting emotion.

Phil is correct stating that Kobe is the only player worthy of comparison to Mike.

Peace to a wise, ojective mind, like Phil Jackson, for stating the plain truth...
...which, surprisingly, is hard to see for many...

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Old 06-23-2006, 04:35 AM   #59
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Phil is correct stating that Kobe is the only player worthy of comparison to Mike.

There's no player worthy of comparison to Mike. Jordan was a LEADER his entire career. Kobe is a great player who got 3 titles playing with Shaq (who was the clear LEADER of that team - 3 times Finals MVP, nuff said).

So no, there's no comparison. What Wade did during these playoffs is a lot more jordanesque than anything Kobe has done (in terms of carrying a team to a title). Yes, Kobe's amazing individual performances are worthy of comparison to Mike, but Jordan's legacy is based on the success he achieved while leading his team more than anything else. Kobe needs to start winning titles as a leader of his team if we are to make any comparisons between the two.
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Old 06-23-2006, 04:42 AM   #60
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Comparison does not mean equal fam.

You're speaking to an official Jordan fan, from the chi.

Kobe is the only legitimate comparible to Jordan.

Kobe has many of the physical attributes, none, I repeat, none of the mental/decision-makin/clarity of focus/concetration attributes that Michael had.

Michael had more intangibles than Joe Montana & Wayne Gretzky combined.

Not to mention Kobe %ages, and assists/assist timing/team play get murdered & sh!t upon by Jordan's %ages assists/timing of assists/team play...

He is still worthy of comparison, Phil is proper.
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