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Old 01-02-2007, 05:26 PM   #16
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Wiz must've forgotten that there was no McHale, no Parish, and no DJ on the team that Bird single-handedly took from 29-53 to 61-21 the next year before bowing out in the ECF...in his rookie year. Or that McHale was a rookie the year Bird led the team to an NBA chip in his second year in the league.
but he didn't get a ring then.

do you guys not realize that you're further demonstrating the point I'm trying to make? so used to disagreeing with geeWiz that you don't know what to do withyourself when I get something right? sheesh.

the fact that Bird had such a huge impact on the game doesn't go away just because he didn't win a ring that year. get it? but casual fans dont notice a 61 win season... they notice rings. and thats how players get ranked. its dumb.

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I HATE the argument that these great players wouldnt have won rings without this and that. How can anyone on Earth actually think MJ would be ringless if he didnt have Scottie Pippen?
because plenty of great players have never won rings. Drexler and Hakeem didn't until they joined forces. Barkley didn't. you need a cast to win a chip, I don't care HOW GOOD YOU ARE. and players should not be demoted for it.

if you think Jordan would have any rings if he were in Paul Pierce's shoes for his career you're dumb. but does that make Jordan an inferior player in my alternate reality? no. get it? stop being thick.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:28 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Simple really. It has nothing to do with ability. But everything to do with career and legacy.

Exactly... Much of the all-time lists have to do with what a player has had the opportunity to demonstrate in addition to how good he is. A Jordan with 6 rings would certainly be considered better than a Jordan with 1 ring. A Jordan with 6 rings has demonstrated that he could play at the highest level consistently. A Jordan with 1 ring, while he has proven to be a great player, hasn't had the opportunity to demonstrate that he could have played at that level consistently.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:30 PM   #18
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but he didn't get a ring then.
Wow. Just wow. It was his rookie year, and turned the team around by how many wins? 32? And lost in the ECF - in his rookie year. You mean to actually say he wouldn't have won an NBA championship with that same team during his prime?

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do you guys not realize that you're further demonstrating the point I'm trying to make? so used to disagreeing with geeWiz that you don't know what to do withyourself when I get something right? sheesh.
Get over yourself. It has nothing to do with you, because I actually think you're a pretty solid poster. Just saying Bird would've never won a ring without McHale and Parish is just plain ignorant.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:30 PM   #19
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what happens if Drexler was part of a dynasty and won 6 rings and Jordan only got 2 while riding Hakeem?

is Drex > MJ?

or are they just closer together? or can we all agree that they'll be considered closer together but shouldn't?
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
because plenty of great players have never won rings. Drexler and Hakeem didn't until they joined forces. Barkley didn't. you need a cast to win a chip, I don't care HOW GOOD YOU ARE. and players should not be demoted for it.

if you think Jordan would have any rings if he were in Paul Pierce's shoes for his career you're dumb. but does that make Jordan an inferior player in my alternate reality? no. get it? stop being thick.

I agree with you, GeeWiz. Even if Jordan were just as good with the Celtics, for example, as he was with Chicago, but didn't win any rings, he wouldn't be considered as good. Skillwise, there could be no difference, but the legacy is what would mark the separation.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:33 PM   #21
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because plenty of great players have never won rings. Drexler and Hakeem didn't until they joined forces. Barkley didn't. you need a cast to win a chip, I don't care HOW GOOD YOU ARE. and players should not be demoted for it.

if you think Jordan would have any rings if he were in Paul Pierce's shoes for his career you're dumb. but does that make Jordan an inferior player in my alternate reality? no. get it? stop being thick.

MJ would never be in Paul Pierces shoes for a career. Stop making this bogus scenerios in attempts to prove your silly point.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:33 PM   #22
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if you think Jordan would have any rings if he were in Paul Pierce's shoes for his career you're dumb. but does that make Jordan an inferior player in my alternate reality? no. get it? stop being thick.
Too bad Pierce's teams perpetually struggle to have 40 wins but when Bird arrived on the scene, he instantly made the team a 60 game winner. But right, just because he turned the team around by 32 wins and lost in the ECF as a god damned ROOKIE, he never would've won a chip with that team.

It's time for you to stop being thick.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by braden.
Wiz must've forgotten that there was no McHale, no Parish, and no DJ on the team that Bird single-handedly took from 29-53 to 61-21 the next year before bowing out in the ECF...in his rookie year. Or that McHale was a rookie the year Bird led the team to an NBA chip in his second year in the league.

Still doens't explain why and how Bird would still be albe to win a title without Mchale, Parish and DJ, does it? It's like saying Wilkins single-handedly took his team to the eastern finals and had a great matchup against Bird and the celtics before bowing out, so? Without at least a comparable supporting cast Wilkins would never get past Bird and that greatest frontcourt of all time, just like without his great supporting cast (including 2 of the 50 greatest players), Bird would never get a ring from the Lakers. Hell even with that sick supporting cast they lost to the Lakers 5 times in the finals, tell me how he would manage to win a single one with say, Wilkin's supporting cast or any average one, instead of Mchale, Parish and DJ, who constituted probably the best supporting cast of all time.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:34 PM   #24
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Get over yourself. It has nothing to do with you, because I actually think you're a pretty solid poster. Just saying Bird would've never won a ring without McHale and Parish is just plain ignorant.
you know there were three would-be dynasties, 3 of the greatest teams in NBA history, all operating during Bird's prime right? without a great cast of guys around him, Bird wouldn't have gotten that ring. thats a fact. watch a damn adidas commercial... its takes 5. even if youre Larry Bird. he barely got the titles he did and had to fight to the bone for every last one because the league was so damn competitive in the 80s. if he had a below average group of guys he wouldn't have gotten the ring. I'm sure he would do what he did in his rookie year several times. win a lot of games, make noise in the playoffs. he would be a great player, and would do all he could. but if he doesn't have a cast of minimum proficiency, he retires ringless. does that discount all the miraculous turnarounds he made in his career? all the clutch plays, all the overachieving year after year? well, in the eyes of the people who make top 10 in history lists... more than it should.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:36 PM   #25
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Simple really. It has nothing to do with ability. But everything to do with career and legacy.

The end.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by braden.
Too bad Pierce's teams perpetually struggle to have 40 wins but when Bird arrived on the scene, he instantly made the team a 60 game winner. But right, just because he turned the team around by 32 wins and lost in the ECF as a god damned ROOKIE, he never would've won a chip with that team.

It's time for you to stop being thick.

Do you think Bird would be having 60 game seasons with the teams Pierce has had around him?
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:37 PM   #27
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you know there were three would-be dynasties, 3 of the greatest teams in NBA history, all operating during Bird's prime right? without a great cast of guys around him, Bird wouldn't have gotten that ring. thats a fact.
No, it isn't. Just because you say it's a fact simply doesn't make it so. The fact is Bird won a ring with Parish beside him and a rookie McHale putting up 10/4. The Celtics wouldn't have been a dynasty, but to act like Bird would be ringless is plain stupid.

If you think MVP-caliber Bird couldn't carry a decent team to an NBA championship, well...I really don't know what to say to you.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:37 PM   #28
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I'm with GeeWiz on this one, noone has ever won a title on their own, it just isn't an individual thing. Judging a player solely on how many titles he has is silly.
I'm ok with using it to seperate to players who might otherwise appear equal, but saying a lesser player is greater because he has more titles, as often is the case, is just retarded.

The situation you find yourself in means a hell of a lot, and there usually isn't anything a player can do about that.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:38 PM   #29
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I can't believe people are thinking that I said Bird could win a title 1 on 5. I'm saying he didn't need 2 HoFer's around him to do it.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:39 PM   #30
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Do you think Bird would be having 60 game seasons with the teams Pierce has had around him?
I never put Bird in Pierce's place, but in today's Eastern Conference with prime Bird? 50 wins at least.
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