Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > New York Knicks Forum

New York Knicks Forum New York Knicks forum - NY Knicks message board

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2012, 02:48 PM   #16
franchize
"The Residential Pit"
 
franchize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,681
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
You reallly think the Magic is going to trade the best player and give us cap space. Never gonna happen. Amare doesnt have the value based on his play since the acquisition of Melo. If by chance the Magic would want Amare definitely a 3rd or 4th team would have to be involved. Chandler probably could be moved to GSW though. I can possibly see that happening.

This is the price paid for buying a core. As the record has shown acquiring FA's isnt the Knicks strong suit.


Wow you really just got into the details and nuances of the trade. I wasn't even trying to do all that. I never mentioned anything about who'd be involved. I just said we should revisit the possibility.
franchize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #17
Rameek
Krust Kingz
 
Rameek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tokyo from Brooklyn
Posts: 6,302
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by franchize
Wow you really just got into the details and nuances of the trade. I wasn't even trying to do all that. I never mentioned anything about who'd be involved. I just said we should revisit the possibility.
Oh I thought you were pulling a hawkfan type trade
Rameek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 09:16 PM   #18
knicksman
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,654
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

So you rather be the milwaukee bucks who hasnt been contending since maybe kareem?Raptors who hasnt been contending since they entered the league. Minnesota, sacramento, philadelphia are in the same position. Chicago with their no. 1 draft picks hasnt been contending until last year. In fact boston, the winningest franchise have 18 year drought until they decided its enough and so they gutted their team for allen and garnett. Its hard to build through draft. If lakers didnt get shaq, wilt, kareem, gasol through trades, they arent winning.

Building a team is the same as in 2k12. You build by trading proven players or signing proven free agents. But signing free agents or trading is harder to do in smaller markets because they arent as attractive as big markets, thats why they are forced to build through draft. And thats the reason why only big markets wins in this league.

This team is fine. Our problem really is that amare has lost its touch. Imagine melo without that jumper, he would be worse i believe than amare. Thats why amare is not producing right now. A jumper is important for a faceup player coz without it, he cant beat his man off the dribble. And thats what causing spacing problems to our team. 2nd problem is that our pgs are just dumb. They have brains like a robot. They dont have any sense of judgment of when to take shots and to stop. I like jorts coz he knows when to shoot. You need a high IQ pg on this system or else we would be scoring 70 pts per game. All of our loses really came when our pgs jack up 20 shots per game which kills the momentum. Douglas and shumpert are the type of players that need pgs to decide for them. But davis is a high IQ player so These problems are really fixable.
knicksman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2012, 12:28 AM   #19
Draz
Like a Baoss.
 
Draz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Titty game Macho Man
Posts: 10,888
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by knicksman
So you rather be the milwaukee bucks who hasnt been contending since maybe kareem?Raptors who hasnt been contending since they entered the league. Minnesota, sacramento, philadelphia are in the same position. Chicago with their no. 1 draft picks hasnt been contending until last year. In fact boston, the winningest franchise have 18 year drought until they decided its enough and so they gutted their team for allen and garnett. Its hard to build through draft. If lakers didnt get shaq, wilt, kareem, gasol through trades, they arent winning.

Building a team is the same as in 2k12. You build by trading proven players or signing proven free agents. But signing free agents or trading is harder to do in smaller markets because they arent as attractive as big markets, thats why they are forced to build through draft. And thats the reason why only big markets wins in this league.

This team is fine. Our problem really is that amare has lost its touch. Imagine melo without that jumper, he would be worse i believe than amare. Thats why amare is not producing right now. A jumper is important for a faceup player coz without it, he cant beat his man off the dribble. And thats what causing spacing problems to our team. 2nd problem is that our pgs are just dumb. They have brains like a robot. They dont have any sense of judgment of when to take shots and to stop. I like jorts coz he knows when to shoot. You need a high IQ pg on this system or else we would be scoring 70 pts per game. All of our loses really came when our pgs jack up 20 shots per game which kills the momentum. Douglas and shumpert are the type of players that need pgs to decide for them. But davis is a high IQ player so These problems are really fixable.

Draz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2012, 01:17 AM   #20
franchize
"The Residential Pit"
 
franchize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,681
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz
My thoughts exactly. Its posts like that which make the closure of that Knicks Fans Unite even more beneficial lol. Cant be postin stuff like that n gettin tons of rep
franchize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2012, 06:58 PM   #21
Da KO King
NBA sixth man of the year
 
Da KO King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: twitter.com/RandomHoopsMike
Posts: 7,535
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

My evaluation of the Knicks


Front Office
They need new blood in there. I'm not sure how much turnover the team experienced when Isiah Thomas left but the ability to evaluate prospect well has basically vanished. Their recent drafts look almost as though they simple looked at the mock drafts at ESPN or DrEx and went with those picks.

I'll withhold judging the Carmelo Anthony trade becauseI was so against it that I know I'll come off as biased. Hell, I probably am.

Perod, this organization needs to add someone to that front office to get it back on track. Personally, I'd LOVE for them to bring in Troy Weaver, assistant General Manager for the Thunder.

Coaching Staff
Coach D'Antoni's usual offense is a poor fit for the current makeup of the team. Tyson Chandler's offensive skill set does NOT fit what D'Antoni wants from his 5-Man. Mike Bibby, Toney Douglas, and Iman Shumpert lack the skills and decison making to do what D'Antoni wants from his 1-Man.

So what is happening is that D'Antoni is trying to adjust the offense on the fly. As is always the case, coaches who attempt to adjust their offense on the fly will coach offensively inconsistent teams.

I'm withholding judgement on the defense because without a real off-season installing a new defensive scheme in the NBA is EXTREMELY tough. So I'll give Mike Woodson a pass.

Roster
Right now this team is like a car that has a state of the art engine (Amar'e Stoudemire), state of the art brakes (Anthony), luxury seats (Chandler), and everything else comes from Pep Boys. It is a mismatch mess that logically COULD get you someplace but in practice is continually breaking down.

Carmelo and Amar'e could possibly work together but ONLY with a PG that really understands the game. Chandler could make the defense better but only if the system uses him effectively.


Overall, this team is improved over what is was a few years ago. Still there is a lot of work to be done if they want to battle for a championship.
Da KO King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2012, 08:53 AM   #22
Rameek
Krust Kingz
 
Rameek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tokyo from Brooklyn
Posts: 6,302
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Unfortunately this is a load of BS.

I cant remember the last team outside of the Lakers (considering they traded for Kobe) that hasnt drafted its core and added FA's around them through trades and signings.

The Knicks has not benefited from the lean years because they have traded away picks and players for more players.

The Knicks since the Layden era has tried to buy entertainment as opposed to building the team the right way.

The Knicks is UTTER FAIL in this regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by knicksman
So you rather be the milwaukee bucks who hasnt been contending since maybe kareem?Raptors who hasnt been contending since they entered the league. Minnesota, sacramento, philadelphia are in the same position. Chicago with their no. 1 draft picks hasnt been contending until last year. In fact boston, the winningest franchise have 18 year drought until they decided its enough and so they gutted their team for allen and garnett. Its hard to build through draft. If lakers didnt get shaq, wilt, kareem, gasol through trades, they arent winning.

Building a team is the same as in 2k12. You build by trading proven players or signing proven free agents. But signing free agents or trading is harder to do in smaller markets because they arent as attractive as big markets, thats why they are forced to build through draft. And thats the reason why only big markets wins in this league.

This team is fine. Our problem really is that amare has lost its touch. Imagine melo without that jumper, he would be worse i believe than amare. Thats why amare is not producing right now. A jumper is important for a faceup player coz without it, he cant beat his man off the dribble. And thats what causing spacing problems to our team. 2nd problem is that our pgs are just dumb. They have brains like a robot. They dont have any sense of judgment of when to take shots and to stop. I like jorts coz he knows when to shoot. You need a high IQ pg on this system or else we would be scoring 70 pts per game. All of our loses really came when our pgs jack up 20 shots per game which kills the momentum. Douglas and shumpert are the type of players that need pgs to decide for them. But davis is a high IQ player so These problems are really fixable.

I agree that the Melo trade wasnt good. I was against it as well. Unfortunately, most people didnt have a problem gutting a team to acquire him but it just didnt make sense basketball wise trying to field a team IMHO. No draft picks and now no salary cap space.

Last edited by Rameek : 01-17-2012 at 09:00 AM.
Rameek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2012, 09:44 AM   #23
franchize
"The Residential Pit"
 
franchize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,681
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Melo did not eat all our cap space. Look around, with the exception of Dallas, all the top teams have 2 guys being paid like stars. Dallas, only had one star and won a ring but they still were among the highest in salary.

We were headed in the right direction until we blew our load on Tyson Chandler. Say what you want about Melo trade but we gave up Chandler (who's in China and was struggling right before the trade), Gallo (who had JUST started playing well but struggled most of that year and got benched, Mozgov (who was a project and was rarely utilized with D'Antoni) and Felton (who's a solid pg but I'd take Chauncey Billups over him).

So,for the record, as a Knick fan, I should blame Melo and ignore the following? Right?:

1.We're spending 15 mil on a decent center
2.Josh Harrelson, who probably would have gone undrafted it it werent for us, has been our most productive bench player.
3.We let Mike D'Antoni convince us that Anthony Randolph and Corey Brewer were total bums and could be let go for nothing.
4.We resigned Jared Jeffries. Now most of his supporters say "he's good for 2 defensive plays a game" (right Knickscity?) They also say he's good to play 10 minutes each game. Last time I checked, there are more than 2 possessions in a 10 minute stretch. He's a bum and he doesn't contribute. Mike Antoni led people to believe this foolishness that he can guard all 5 positions. Yes f-in right Sorry. Tired of pussyfooting around the obvious.He sucks.
5.We've had the same mediocre coach in here underachieving for years.
6. Our already mediocre starting pg actually found a way to get worse during the lockout.
7. Our rookie, who shows glimpses of impressive playmaking ability, is constantly being reminded that he's just a fill in until our injury prone 33 year old pg, who's never played for the Knicks or with any of our players, comes back from a major back injury.
8.We signed Mike Bibby and Jeremy Lin. Sad part is, Bibby might still be better than Douglas.
9.We have no backup center yet Jerome Jordan has yet to play more than 10 minutes in a game.
10. Are other star player is in a slump because our coach and pg have yet to put him in position to where he thrives best.
11. We still have no defensive philosophy. When we win, it's off of pure effort. Our switchingand weak side defense HAS to be the most disgusting display of a defensive scheme I've ever seen on a professional level. I mean it is absolutely atrocious how fundamentally flawed we are on defense.

With that said, should I still continue to blame the Melo trade for the reason why our team is where it is?
franchize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2012, 10:25 AM   #24
Rameek
Krust Kingz
 
Rameek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tokyo from Brooklyn
Posts: 6,302
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Franchize the Knicks got no one before Chandler. Amare didnt want to play Center so they signed Chandler. I wouldnt have signed him for that money but it is what it is.

Trading David Lee for nothing and trading 3 starters and a potential starter for Melo in Fantasy Basketball isnt a bad trade. The problem is you had nothing to replace them with. Not getting anything in return for Lee and gutting your team for Melo doesnt make basketball sense.

Boston had Rondo Perkins Pierce Davis (I think) gutted the team of athletic youth for Garnett and Allen. They still had a starting 5 and built from there.

Buying a core and gutting the roster puts a team at a significant disadvantage.

Franchize you are upset that they couldnt find players to fill the roster to your liking but if you wanted cap space they had a bunch of 1 year rentals and a gutted team is my problem.


Had Zeke did the same thing we would have reemed him! But because Walsh did it he gets a pass. Not in my book.

Last edited by Rameek : 01-17-2012 at 10:28 AM.
Rameek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2012, 12:24 PM   #25
franchize
"The Residential Pit"
 
franchize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,681
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Had Zeke did the same thing we would have reemed him! But because Walsh did it he gets a pass. Not in my book.
Timeout! Who's giving Walsh a pass? Me? I do believe I started a thread to support him being fired wiht D'Antoni. I was the 1st person to say ppl made Zeke into a villian when he brought in just as much talent as any other GM we've had in the last decade. Probably more. In fact, he was probably more responsible for Melo and Amare than anyone.

Quote:
I wouldnt have signed him for that money but it is what it is.
What do you mean "it is what it is." How can you cry about money to spend then? We still had money when the roster was Melo,Amare and "a gutted roster." We could have amnestied Billups if need be and used the cap space on multiple solid players, not just one and a bunch of scrubs.Two players at the max doesn't kill your team financially. 3 players getting top dollar does, especially when the 3rd isn't a top player.

Quote:
Franchize the Knicks got no one before Chandler. Amare didnt want to play Center so they signed Chandler...Franchize you are upset that they couldnt find players to fill the roster to your liking

We didn't even TRY to get players. THAT is my problem! We didn't just bring in Novak and Lin as a last resort. We signed them off of waivers. We got Harrelson in the draft. Chandler was signed EARLY in an already short offseason.The FO tanked 2 seasons and signed 3 big names and looked at the fans like tadaaaaaaa. It doesn't take a talented GM to do what they did. Those guys WANTED to be in NY regardless. You think Chandler needed convincing to come here? He went to the highest bidder with the biggest market. We didn't comb the market for talent. We just threw money at names. Harrelson had a good NCAA tournament...let's draft him. Someone says Jeffries can guard all 5 positions....let's re-sign him. Tyson Chandler won a ring...let's outbid everyone for him. This team is historicaly notorious for overpaying guys for small sample sets of success. Tyson Chandler, before last season, was NEVER considered a dominant center. Then all of a sudden, he gets a ring and he can "change the culture" of teams defensively.

Until we get fresh faces in our Front Office and our Coaching Staff, who have a knack for finding and developing quality talent, we are doomed. When Rich Cho and Chris Mullin and Kevin Pritchard and guys like that were looking for jobs, we didn't even look their way. When Monty Williams and Mark Jackson were trying to become head coaches, we didn't give them a shot. Sam Mitchell is looking for a job still, think he'll get an interview? No We'll go chase Phil Jackson or some other big name who'll be gone in 2 years.All we do is hire familiar guys and guys from within. Problem is, we haven't been a good team for a while. Therefore, we're just continuing a cycle of a failing culture.

Quote:
Boston had Rondo Perkins Pierce Davis (I think) gutted the team of athletic youth for Garnett and Allen. They still had a starting 5 and built from there

You must have forgot how bad the Celtics were until they made that trade. They were absolutely terrible.Rondo was a scrub.The ONLY reason he wasn't sent off to Minnesota instead of Telfair is because of Telfair's off the court gun charge situation. Doc Rivers himself said that in an interview. Furthermore, Doc Rivers and Tom Thibadeau are WAY better coaches than Mike Antoni and Mike Woodson.

Quote:
Not getting anything in return for Lee and gutting your team for Melo doesnt make basketball sense.
1st of all, we didnt JUST get Melo back. Chauncey Billups isn't exactly a throw in player.I think our season would be going better if we kept Chauncey and got an affordable, decent starting center. Chauncey has done way more "changing of culture" than Chandler has. I would have loved to see him and Shumpert work. They had already started working together in the offseason. I agree about not getting anything for Lee though. He was at the peek of his popularity and we got back guys that we never used. Azabuike was a lemon, we never used Randolph and Turiaf was good but his health kept him off the floor.
franchize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 03:53 AM   #26
knicksman
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,654
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
Unfortunately this is a load of BS.

I cant remember the last team outside of the Lakers (considering they traded for Kobe) that hasnt drafted its core and added FA's around them through trades and signings.

The Knicks has not benefited from the lean years because they have traded away picks and players for more players.

The Knicks since the Layden era has tried to buy entertainment as opposed to building the team the right way.

The Knicks is UTTER FAIL in this regard.




I agree that the Melo trade wasnt good. I was against it as well. Unfortunately, most people didnt have a problem gutting a team to acquire him but it just didnt make sense basketball wise trying to field a team IMHO. No draft picks and now no salary cap space.

Coz the hardest part to acquire in this league are your stars. And business wise, its the right move. If the team aint winning, people would still watch the product because there is a star. Thats why dolan immediately increased ticket prices after acquiring him. And if this team wont succeed, then we still have next year to acquire more pieces until we can contend.
knicksman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 07:17 AM   #27
Rameek
Krust Kingz
 
Rameek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tokyo from Brooklyn
Posts: 6,302
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by knicksman
Coz the hardest part to acquire in this league are your stars. And business wise, its the right move. If the team aint winning, people would still watch the product because there is a star. Thats why dolan immediately increased ticket prices after acquiring him. And if this team wont succeed, then we still have next year to acquire more pieces until we can contend.
The Knicks hasnt tried to do it the typical way but the buying way. Dolan always makes money the Knicks are always tops in the league in attendance.
Rameek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 09:01 AM   #28
franchize
"The Residential Pit"
 
franchize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,681
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by knicksman
Coz the hardest part to acquire in this league are your stars.

That's not true at all. Especially,not in a big market. No matter who was the GM, Melo wanted to be a Knick. Walsh had very little to do with that trade. As a matter of fact, he wasn't even for the Melo trade originally.
franchize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 05:37 PM   #29
knicksman
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,654
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek
The Knicks hasnt tried to do it the typical way but the buying way. Dolan always makes money the Knicks are always tops in the league in attendance.

But thats what lakers are doing for years thats why they have lots of rings to show for it. Boston build through draft and they have drought for 18 years until they made trades through free agency. Lots of teams have been building through drafts and hasnt been contenders. In fact toronto hasnt been contending since they come in to the league and im sure they are building through the draft.
knicksman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2012, 05:42 PM   #30
knicksman
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,654
Default Re: Evaluating the Knicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by franchize
That's not true at all. Especially,not in a big market. No matter who was the GM, Melo wanted to be a Knick. Walsh had very little to do with that trade. As a matter of fact, he wasn't even for the Melo trade originally.

It is. Only this time were stars moving out from their teams because lebron started it. But before, it is hard to acquire them. No team is trading their star thats why the knicks only got the marburys, randolphs,crawford who arent proven winners. If lebron stayed in cleveland, im sure melo remains in denver too. Thats why the only player we got is damaged goods in amare.
knicksman is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:47 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy