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Old 02-06-2012, 07:09 PM   #31
32Dayz
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Hakeem couldn't even outplay a raw young Oneal.

How can you possibly act like he is the better player?

Peak Hakeem could barely play Young Shaq to a wash.
Prime Shaq would dominate him.


/Thread.

gtg but come back later for more humiliation spitwad.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:10 PM   #32
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32Dayz
Shaq is #3 All-Time in playoff blocked shots only 13 less then Hakeem.



1st teams were given to specialists in the late 90's / 00's

Shaq was 2nd in DPOY voting in 00 and finished in the Top 5 as late as 2005 and he was an even better defender in the 90's.


Oh, so Shaq blocked 13 less shots in the playoffs in the playoffs but more then 1000 less overall..

And of course first teams on the all-defensive teams are given to defensive specialists and Hakeem was one of them, Shaq was not.

God, you're retarded..

Last edited by millwad : 02-07-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:12 PM   #33
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32Dayz
Hakeem couldn't even outplay a raw young Oneal.

How can you possibly act like he is the better player?

Peak Hakeem could barely play Young Shaq to a wash.
Prime Shaq would dominate him.


/Thread.

gtg but come back later for more humiliation spitwad.

Peak Hakeem outplayed Shaq and swept him..

And that "raw" Shaq had one of his greatest seasons of his whole career in '95, he only was voted 2nd on the MVP ranking twice in his career.. Once in '95 and the 2nd time on '05 and he was definitely better in '95. Ownage as usual.

Even the mod of ISH thinks you're a retard..

And I'm not even saying that Hakeem was better then Shaq, I have them ranked on the same place on my all-time ranking, I am just replying to your retarded posts..

Last edited by millwad : 02-06-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

If the Dream and Shaq played now, who would win 1 on 1?

But back on topic,

Dream > Shaq
Dream > Duncan
Duncan > Shaq
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

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Originally Posted by The_Yearning
If the Dream and Shaq played now, who would win 1 on 1?

But back on topic,

Shaq >>> Hakeem > Duncan

Fixed.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:30 PM   #36
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach_3
I couldn't care how many more moves Olajuwan had or how much more complete his game was he was NOT on Shaq's level offensively.

the game isnt ALL about offense. jesus christ.... shaq was a terrible defender sometimes he would actually stop playing defense because HIS TEAM WONT NOT GIVE HIM THE BALL.. how does anyone think shaq is better then duncan or hakeem is beyond me... you really think duncan would of stopped playing defense because he wasnt being fed the ball?? my god you guys....
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #37
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I actually think Shaq and Hakeem are about even. Lately, I favor Hakeem slightly because he didn't have a real weakness and because the difference between their defense in Olajuwon's favor is bigger than the difference between their offense in Shaq's favor. But it's virtually a toss up to me. I use to have Shaq over Hakeem, but I alternate back and forth. Both are in my top 5.

It is tough though, Shaq was imo, the biggest mismatch in NBA history.

A few things to clear up, though.

You can't really diminish '95 Clyde and prop up 2000 Kobe. Clyde had a playoff run in '95 that was more than comparable to what Kobe did in 2000.

I don't think rings sum it up because Shaq undoubtedly had better casts for most of their careers, however, that alone doesn't make Olajuwon better because while he did have less help, he also won significantly less.

And finally, the hack-a-Shaq strategy was not effective more than not. Teams usually lost against the Lakers when they tried it. And Shaq wasn't routinely removed from games during his prime either. That's a huge misconception.

What usually happened with the hack-a-Shaq(when it was used, which wasn't usually the case) was Phil would see how Shaq responded to it. If he shot decently by his standards and the Lakers maintained or extended their lead, usually the opponent would stop after 3-4 times. If Shaq was really struggling, then Phil might take Shaq out for a minute or 2 until 2 minutes remained and the strategy was no longer available.

But teams didn't usually use it for a reason. 1 is that even a player who only shot 53% like Shaq would more often than not make 1 out of 2. That's giving away a point on average, and then your team has to score at the other end vs a set defense. And it also gets your team in the penalty making it easier for Shaq's teammates to get to the line.

As a rough estimate, for someone like myself who didn't live in LA and would watch Shaq play on national television or when he played NY or New Jersey. I'd say that out of roughly 30 regular season games, I could probably count on one hand how many times the strategy would be used in a regular season. And maybe once or twice in a playoff run.

Teams would use it more in some of those early season games in the seasons when Shaq had horrible early season free throw struggles(similar to Dwight now), but come playoff time, I'm not sure I can ever remember a time when the Lakers lost due to the hack-a-Shaq.

The whole Shaq regularly being taken out of games myth comes from the latter part of Shaq's career. By then Shaq was playing more limited minutes and would in fact play less down the stretch. But I start becoming suspicious over who actually watched Shaq's prime when they act like this was the norm during Shaq's prime.




They weren't better rebounders than Shaq who had back to back title runs with 15+ rpg while scoring 30+ ppg.

Shaq was the best scorer out of the 3. Hakeem was pretty close in that regard and definitely more skilled, but I'll bet on Shaq as being more consistent at putting the ball in the basket. He had to work less hard for his points because of his size, but ultimately, I judge by effectiveness.

Who cares if Duncan had better post moves? It's not like Duncan was even in the same league as Shaq as a scorer anyway. And Shaq wasn't exactly lacking in post moves. Drop step, jump hook, spin move, turnaround on the baseline. He could go over either shoulder, which is all you need with your back to the basket. Had good counters, and could just back most defenders down if the help didn't come.

Even from a skill standpoint, Duncan could only do one thing with his back to the basket that Shaq didn't do much, which was shoot with his left hand.

He had a much better face up game than Shaq, though. But again, nobody with a brain would argue that Shaq and Duncan were comparable scorers.

are you joking me?? shaq even said on TNT himself a few weeks back when comparing howard and bynum he compared himself to tim duncan saying he had way more skill then him. shaq only has one thing over other big men and thats scoring. big deal. he played no defense and he was NOT a better rebounder then duncan or hakeem no ****ing way
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseJuiceBowen
are you joking me?? shaq even said on TNT himself a few weeks back when comparing howard and bynum he compared himself to tim duncan saying he had way more skill then him. shaq only has one thing over other big men and thats scoring. big deal. he played no defense and he was NOT a better rebounder then duncan or hakeem no ****ing way

I'm not going to back and forth with you because frankly, I don't respect your opinion and find you annoying and immature, but to clear something up.

I never disputed that Duncan is more skilled. I said that it doesn't really matter because Shaq is in another tier in terms of scoring. But I also said that Duncan doesn't have many more options with his back to the basket because Shaq can score on either block, go over either shoulder or score in the lane. What else do you need?

Duncan's primary advantage as far as skills is his faceup game and ability to hit shots out to 20 feet. But those are things I wouldn't want a 7'2", 340 pound center doing anyway.

And by your logic, all Duncan has over Shaq is defense, because rebounding and passing are both very close between those 2.

Of course, that's a very simple way of looking at it.

I'll put it this way to close this. If someone wants to take Duncan over Shaq for defense and being a better teammate, that's fine with me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Duncan is great.

But anyone who thinks Shaq doesn't have a case over Duncan either didn't watch early 2000's basketball, or is too biased to be taken seriously, because I can tell you right now that during that era(when much of their primes overlapped), players, analysts, gms ect. all would have laughed at the suggestion Shaq doesn't have a case. In fact, most of them would have taken Shaq over Duncan at the time.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:56 PM   #39
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I'm not going to back and forth with you because frankly, I don't respect your opinion and find you annoying and immature, but to clear something up.

I never disputed that Duncan is more skilled. I said that it doesn't really matter because Shaq is in another tier in terms of scoring. But I also said that Duncan doesn't have many more options with his back to the basket because Shaq can score on either block, go over either shoulder or score in the lane. What else do you need?

Duncan's primary advantage as far as skills is his faceup game and ability to hit shots out to 20 feet. But those are things I wouldn't want a 7'2", 340 pound center doing anyway.

And by your logic, all Duncan has over Shaq is defense, because rebounding and passing are both very close between those 2.

Of course, that's a very simple way of looking at it.

I'll put it this way to close this. If someone wants to take Duncan over Shaq for defense and being a better teammate, that's fine with me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Duncan is great.

But anyone who thinks Shaq doesn't have a case over Duncan either didn't watch early 2000's basketball, or is too biased to be taken seriously, because I can tell you right now that during that era(when much of their primes overlapped), players, analysts, gms ect. all would have laughed at the suggestion Shaq doesn't have a case. In fact, most of them would have taken Shaq over Duncan at the time.

every top 10 big man has a case to be discussed with each other. these comparisons are retarded anyway. but defense and rebounding arent the only things that duncan had over him. better teamate. better leader. better passer. im sorry if you dont value rebounding and defense over offense. alot of fans dont but I do. its pretty sad to see him stop playing defense because hes not "Getting the ball". what do you think of your hero doing that?


and seriously shaq was NEVER a better rebounder then duncan. EVER
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

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millwad



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Old 02-07-2012, 07:40 AM   #41
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

It's arguable. There're some wrong points in the argument but nonetheless, it's a good one. Both may be argued as GOAT. Quite unstoppable forces in their times respectably.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:42 AM   #42
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Its not arguable.

Shaq had a better Peak/Prime and was considerably more effective and impactful on the offensive end.

Shaq had a longer and incomparably more productive and successful playoff career.

Shaq was able to play on par with Peak Hakeem his first 3 years in the league.

Shaq is clearly a better player and is arguably the GOAT C with Kareem.

Shaq / Kareem > Wilt > Hakeem...

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Old 02-07-2012, 07:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by 32Dayz
Its not arguable.

Shaq had a better Peak/Prime and was considerably more effective and impactful on the offensive end.

Shaq had a longer and incomparably more productive and successful playoff career.

Shaq was able to play on par with Peak Hakeem his first 3 years in the league.

Shaq is clearly a better player and is arguably the GOAT C with Kareem.

Shaq / Kareem > Wilt > Hakeem...


It's arguable definitely.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:59 AM   #44
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by zizozain
Did I say debate? What I actually meant was, Houston fans put on their outrage pants rather quickly, knowing how the national debate would go. Of course the world thinks Shaq is a better player. He has the rings, he has the resume, etc. I'm not here to hate on Shaq. I think he absolutely belongs near the top of the all-time best NBA players.

But we're talking about Hakeem Olajuwon.

Now, those of you that are militant in your belief that Shaq is the better player - just hear me out. Follow these three simple steps to enlightenment:

1) Confirm that you can actually read and (this is the important part) process and retain information.
2) Read the following article.
3) Learn stuff.
4) Pop in a DVD of Kazaam to reinforce your feelings of Shaq's dominance.

Now, for those of you who think it's not even CLOSE, and Shaq is far better, follow all the above steps as written but before you begin said steps, it is important for you to GET THE FULLY-PACKED CRACK PIPE OUT OF YOUR MOUTH.

Defense is kind of important.

While Shaq, at least statistically, bests Olajuwon in the scoring department, it might be important to note that NBA players spend half their careers on the court playing defense. Why this small detail is so overlooked, I have no idea. O'Neal is absolutely no slouch when it comes to defense, but his defense was more about his physical presence than his actual ability.

Hakeem Olajuwon, while playing 18 seasons to O'Neal's 19, had roughly a thousand more blocked shots than Shaq. That's ONE THOUSAND. With ONE LESS SEASON. You want to talk about how Shaq is dominant? THAT is defensive domination. Hakeem is THE all-time leading shot-blocker in the NBA, despite the fact that Shaq was taller and allegedly more dominant. Defense is about effort. Defense is about imposing your will on the other guy. Nobody - ever - beats Hakeem Olajuwon in that category.

Olajuwon is eighth all-time in the NBA in steals. Not among centers, mind you - among ALL PLAYERS. I'm looking at the list of all-time steal leaders in the NBA, and I don't see another center among them. Eighth all-time in steals. Hakeem Olajuwon, ladies and gentlemen.

Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?

Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.

Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.

That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.

At the end of games, Hakeem was clutch, and Shaq was non-existent.

This one really gets the Shaq-pumpers irritated. Shaquille O'Neal was SO bad at free throw shooting, that the NBA created the Hack-a-Shaq strategy. Late in games, teams would foul Shaq, then wait as he predictably clanked his free throws. This worked with alarming efficiency, so much so that Shaq's coaches would pull him out of games. A seven-foot, one-inch dominator, first ballot Hall-of-Famer, and two-time scoring champion - reduced to cheerleader. Why? Because he couldn't make free throws. Why? Because he didn't work hard enough on his free throw shooting. Oh sure, he tried to get better, but the bottom line is - it didn't work.

I'm sorry, but if you are out of games in the final minutes because of one of your liabilities, you are automatically out of the conversation for being number one at ANYTHING. On the other side, Olajuwon had a history of making clutch shots late in games... and sinking clutch free throws. After all, they're only free throws.

Shaq's celebrity and style plays into the myth that he's better than Hakeem.

I could go on for paragraphs on this topic, but I'll give one example that encapsulates my feelings on the matter with precision. When Shaquille O'Neal had the opportunity to block a shot, he would swat it ten rows up into the crowd. It is the way of the ESPN-era that his career blossomed during. Shaq would scream, beat his chest, dance around, and interact with the fans. I'M SHAQ LOOK HOW DOMINANT I AM BE SURE TO CATCH ME IN MOVIES THIS OFFSEASON I'M A CELEBRITY BRAAAAWWWRRRR!!!!

With Hakeem, he almost always made it a point to keep his blocked shots in play. Could he have swatted them into the ether and done cartwheels? Sure. But it wasn't his way. Instead, he'd block the shot and haul it in himself, or often times he'd block a shot, and ignite a fast break scoring opportunity for the Rockets. It's just as worthy of an ESPN highlight, but since Olajuwon, much like the Honey Badger, doesn't give a sh*t about any of that stuff, he didn't get the run Shaq did. And that's fine. Shaq is good for the NBA, and again, I'm not here to deride him.

Head to head in The Finals, and it wasn't even close.

I think this is worth mentioning, but it's not something I consider overwhelming evidence in Hakeem's favor. When Shaq and Hakeem met in the 1995 NBA Finals, Olajuwon was in his prime, and Shaq was still in the early part of his career. But it's not like it was close. With less talent, and without home-court advantage, the Rockets swept the Magic, and Olajuwon bested O'Neal.

On the other side of the coin, in 1999 the Rockets met the Lakers in the first round of the playoffs. Shaq absolutely dominated Hakeem in that series, but he was well past his prime. To maintain some objectivity here, it's probably safe to say that these two series effectively cancel each other out.

Shaq has the hardware, and that's impossible to refute.
Four rings to two. Shaq has Olajuwon there. Nothing I can spin can refute that, but it is certainly worth mentioning that while Shaq had Kobe, Kobe, Kobe, and Dwayne Wade at his side for his championships, Hakeem had NOBODY, and wild-shooting, 33 year old Clyde Drexler on his. While Hakeem was surrounded by role-players (and Clyde), Shaq always had a superstar.

Shaq's alleged physical dominance is overstated.

Ah yes, the go-to line for all Shaq-backers. He's the most physically-dominant NBA player ever! Well, not really. First of all, that title belongs to Wilt Chamberlain. Maybe Oliver Miller, but more for his pre-game meal performances. As Adam Wexler pointed out, Shaq never once lead the NBA in rebounding or blocked shots. Maybe people need to re-think their definition of dominant, because those are certainly two statistics that you should lead the league in at least once if you're even going to make the argument that a guy is the most dominant NBA talent of all time.

If Shaq had half of Hakeem's work ethic, this wouldn't even be a debate.
While O'Neal relied on his natural talents his entire career, Hakeem Olajuwon was constantly working, retooling, inventing, and tweaking his game. Shaq probably never felt the need to do that, and really - he was so gifted, I can hardly blame the guy. Shaq's game never truly evolved beyond his natural talent. Instead of putting in the hours tweaking, improving, and evolving, he spent a full third of his career (perhaps more than that?) out of peak shape. If he had Olajuwon's work ethic, we might be arguing about Shaq vs. Jordan vs. Chamberlain for the best all time. Instead, he never put in complete effort defensively, never developed another shot outside of that little baby hook (meh), and seemed to coast for a significant portion of his career.

Conclusions.

The simplified version is this: I'll give you that Shaq was more dominant, and perhaps even affected games on offense more than Olajuwon, but it wasn't by much. For reasons stated above, you can make a legitimate case that Olajuwon was in fact a more complete offensive player. But even if I spot you Shaq's offensive game, Hakeem Olajuwon's defense is Manny Pacqiao's fist to Shaq's Shane Mosley face, and again - Shaq was a good defender. It's just that Olajuwon was MORE dominant as a defender than Shaq was as a scorer. ONE. THOUSAND. MORE. BLOCKS. EIGHTH ALL-TIME IN STEALS. Offense is half the game. Defense is the other half. If Shaq is slightly ahead of Hakeem on offense, and Hakeem is FAR ahead of Shaq on defense, well, draw your own conclusions. I've shown you facts.

I think this is a well-reasoned, if not unbiased look at the comparison between Shaq and Hakeem. Sure, I'm a Hakeem fan, but I've got nothing at all against Shaq. I'm also a big fan of, you know, factual information - and there's more than enough out there to solidify what I will call a FACT, that on a player-to-player basis, Hakeem Olajuwon is superior to Shaquille O'Neal.

This guy makes a very decent argument for Dream. However as he says in the article. Shaq didn't even get the most out of his ability & it's a debate even in his mind although he favors Dream.

I go with Shaq really because he & Wilt are the 2 most psychically awesome specimen to ever play in the NBA. Excuse me if I am grammatically incorrect.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:02 AM   #45
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj242
This guy makes a very decent argument for Dream. However as he says in the article. Shaq didn't even get the most out of his ability & it's a debate even in his mind although he favors Dream.

I go with Shaq really because he & Wilt are the 2 most psychically awesome specimen to ever play in the NBA. Excuse me if I am grammatically incorrect.

Your grammar is pretty good, no worry's m8.

Hakeem was a great player and I guess one could try and make a case for him.

Personally I dont think he ever really came close to having the same impact on the offensive end that Oneal did and he certainly was unable to produce at the level did Shaq over his Career.

Thats what personally leads me to believe that Shaq was just a better player able to produce at a higher level and exert more influence over the outcome of games.

Also players who seem overly skilled always seem to get overrated.
That is because certain people think to seem Skill > Results and those people are retarded.

Its the same sort of people who say Kobe > Jordan because Kobe was more skilled then Jordan.
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