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Old 02-08-2012, 02:02 PM   #106
zizozain
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Can't cite good sources (only other messageboards and wikipedia) but convert might have been a poor choice of words. It seems like he was from an Islamic household, but not a practicing Muslim, or ever indicating any Islamic beliefs. There are references to him finding religion, and becoming more devout. Can't give a precise time, but happened between the birth of his first child 1988 and 1991 by when he "corrected" the spelling of his name.
as for ''practicing'' i know for a fact he does .. i met him and his family 4-5 times.
he fasts Ramadan he prays 5 times a day, does not drink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxIbVHIVIY
tc
Hakeem represents Islam the way Islam is supposed to be viewed! everything u see on tv is streotypical about muslims.

Hakeem Olajuwon - Ramadan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omK7fFY6Vv8

"Olajuwon was still recognized as one of the league's elite centers despite his strict observance of Ramadan (abstaining from food and drink during daylight hours for about a month), which occurred during virtually every season of his career. Olajuwon was noted as sometimes playing better during the month, and in 1995 he was named NBA Player of the Month in February, even though Ramadan began on February 1 that year." -Wikipedia
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:03 PM   #107
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
That's the problem, you don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nAirDIaJ68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxdWN...=results_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afp2RVuZIx4

Please point out the so-called "stat-padding". Thanks in advance.




That kind of cheesy talk is reason enough not to continue this conversation.



If you don't get my point, then that's your shortcoming. Stats are relevant. I didn't say Shaq didn't play well. I said his impact wasn't as great as his stats. They were not. Shaq gets away with a lot, but that has nothing to do with how he was outplayed by Hakeem. Is the difference in that series Hakeem's teammates and not Hakeem over Shaq? Because that's what this thread has degenerated into.


Defensively, Hakeem spends a lot of time doing more than just guarding Shaquille O'Neal. Defensively, Hakeem guards pick n' rolls, which doesn't show up in any statline. He plays risky defense and his quality is enough to ensure high reward. The effect he has on the other team's offense, minimizing time on the shot clock, disrupting spacing and forcing forced ball movement...and with that he still guarded O'Neal 1v1. Shaq says he didn't want a double team. Why not? Hakeem would just have scored more and at a higher clip without one. Then again, he's right. Because he doesn't play defense outside of the man he's guarding, so why waste time doubling? Shaq doesn't rotate or adjust. He plays his game where he plays it.



You disagree with that? Olajuwon does everything and he does it as well as anyone ever has. But without even going there, he doesn't refuse to come outside the paint for reasons other than illegal defense.



O'Neal got his with 1v1 coverage and the 1 ving him was doing more than just worrying about whether or not Shaq got 28points.



So again, you take it how you want it. I never said Shaq doesn't have huge impact. I never said he isn't one of the greatest players of all-time. He's an anomaly. And his impact goes as far as his statline. You're gonna tell me Shaq's impact is greater than stats? Does he make anyone better? Does he facilitate offense? No, he' a monster who's so good he can win the game on his own. But win or lose, Shaq gets his points. And in those cases, his points often have little effect on the final outcome or score.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 02-08-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:16 PM   #108
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
talk



That kind of cheesy talk is reason enough not to continue this conversation.

Cheesy talk? Please kid

If that's "cheesy talk" than you've been talking from your ass this entire time.

Quote:
If you don't get my point, then that's your shortcoming. Stats are relevant.

Hakeem out played Shaq and his impact was greater. I am not disputing that; however, you're arguing that Shaq had little to no impact questioning where it was at. You made the claim. The burden of proof lies on you.

So again, point out what you think is stat-padding. I posted the highlights, list them. None of this his layup had more impact because it was prettier hyperbole garbage. 3/4 of the games were decided within the last few minutes. Give us some REAL context.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:28 PM   #109
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Cheesy talk? Please kid

If that's "cheesy talk" than you've been talking from your ass this entire time.



Hakeem out played Shaq and his impact was greater. I am not disputing that; however, you're arguing that Shaq had little to no impact questioning where it was at. You made the claim. The burden of proof lies on you.

So again, point out what you think is stat-padding. I posted the highlights, list them. None of this his layup had more impact because it was prettier hyperbole garbage. 3/4 of the games were decided within the last few minutes. Give us some REAL context.



I actually just posted a bunch of points, within context. Feel free to disagree with any of it, but don't show me a highlight and ask me to pick and choose which bucket was more valuable. Because that has nothing to do with what I said. Like I said, I actually watched the games. So go back and watch the games yourselves and feel free to then tell me I'm completely wrong, but don't come with highlights and questioning my understanding of context. Again, you're not using any.


You win. Peace.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:38 PM   #110
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
I actually just posted a bunch of points, within context. Feel free to disagree with any of it, but don't show me a highlight and ask me to pick and choose which bucket was more valuable. Because that has nothing to do with what I said. Like I said, I actually watched the games. So go back and watch the games yourselves and feel free to then tell me I'm completely wrong, but don't come with highlights and questioning my understanding of context. Again, you're not using any.

Because you can't and won't admit to never watching the series. The full games are also up on Youtube. Feel free to pick apart Shaq's "real" and "fake" production.

Remember this gem?

Quote:
The difference being that Shaq got his but had no impact with any of it.

Uh huh.

You'd think a player averaging 28/12/5 would have some impact. So the Magic would have been just as formidable without Shaq. Everything stays the same? Makes sense.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:42 PM   #111
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by zizozain
as for ''practicing'' i know for a fact he does .. i met him and his family 4-5 times.
he fasts Ramadan he prays 5 times a day, does not drink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHxIbVHIVIY
tc
Hakeem represents Islam the way Islam is supposed to be viewed! everything u see on tv is streotypical about muslims.

Hakeem Olajuwon - Ramadan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omK7fFY6Vv8

"Olajuwon was still recognized as one of the league's elite centers despite his strict observance of Ramadan (abstaining from food and drink during daylight hours for about a month), which occurred during virtually every season of his career. Olajuwon was noted as sometimes playing better during the month, and in 1995 he was named NBA Player of the Month in February, even though Ramadan began on February 1 that year." -Wikipedia
I know, the "was" in my prior post was meant to indicate that prior to his "conversion", or awakening or whatever you call it he had not (to my limited knowledge) shown any signs of practicing Islam. The dates I refer to in that post are meant to refer to the timing of his religious awakening. Good info anyway.

Regarding the general argument (not specific to their finals matchup) I'm not sure that Shaq was a stat padder or he would have done more in his regular seasons in his prime (like stay in shape), obviously there are intangiables that don't show up on the scoreboard and Hakeem would have the edge in most of these areas. But "his points often have little effect on the final outcome or score" seems a little odd. I assume those points were counted in the final tallying of the score. Generally they were scored very efficiently and Shaq's teams went to him more often (though ts% is closer and reflects Olajuwon's superiority at the line). Shaq was routinely double and even triple teamed and created open threes for teammates which weren't necessarily assists because of rotations, IDK about '95 who covered who, but either man defending single coverage would be bold but probably the right thing to do given the shooters on those teams.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:34 PM   #112
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

I'd put Hakeem and Duncan over Shaq.

Everyone talks about Shaq's offense and how neither of these other two guys can even touch him, mainly because they look at his ppg and fg%. But when you factor in FT's (which is what TS% does), Shaq's perceived dramatic advantage on offense becomes much smaller, and some could argue that it doesn't even exist at all. You look at Shaq's playoff TS% during his peak years and it falls between .515 and .604. Duncan's falls between .488 and .625. It may be hard to believe that factoring in FT's can make this much of a difference, but when you shoot as many and miss as many as Shaq did, you can see why.

In addition, I can't tell you how many times I saw the hack-a-shaq tool utilized effectively to halt LA's momentum at a crucial point in the game. There are certain things that don't show up on the stat sheet, but still have a profound effect on your team. They permeate through everything. Take leadership. How the hell can you be a leader of your team when your "Hey I'm just a kid trapped in a giant's body" personality doesn't allow you to have the discipline to learn one of the most basic functions in all of basketball? You can't. Which is why Shaq only got to the finals with elite strong-minded, disciplined shooting guards by his side. Penny was on his way to being a first-ballot HOF'er before his knee injury, Kobe is, well, Kobe, and Wade put up one of the greatest performances in the history of the NBA finals in 2006. These are three guys with the drive and tenacity to spend 5 hours a night shooting free throws if it was something they needed to do to help their team. Shaq's just not that kind of animal. He's a goofball. I think he's hilarious and has one of the most memorable personalities this league has ever seen, but when people describe him, they say he's like a big kid. Big kid's aren't leaders, and this is the main reason why I would take Hakeem or Duncan over Shaq to lead my team any day of the week.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:34 PM   #113
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Default Re: In The Hakeem Olajuwo, vs. Shaquille O'Neal Debate, The Dream Remains Unbeatable

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy

3 of the 4 games were decided in the 4th quarter. So where is the "stat padding"?


Not true, man.

Game 2 and 4 were not really decided in the fourth. In game 2 Hakeem destroyed the Magic in the first half and had 22 points at halftime. Shaq's points in 2nd half didn't mean anything really because the game was already finito.

Game 4 was never really close in the fourth, the Magic had alot of TO's at the beginning of the fourth and both those 2 games easily goes to Hakeem.

Shaq's biggest issue in this series was his TO's, he threw away ALOT of balls and had many turnovers, in all he averaged more then 5 turnovers a game which hurt them in the end.
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