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Old 02-25-2012, 05:33 PM   #31
bdreason
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

Nash is a great player, but him winning two MVP's destroyed the legitimacy of the award in my opinion. Everyone was caught up with "Nashsanity" and the inflated statistics from Dantoni's system... sound familiar?
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:47 PM   #32
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdreason
Nash is a great player, but him winning two MVP's destroyed the legitimacy of the award in my opinion. Everyone was caught up with "Nashsanity" and the inflated statistics from Dantoni's system... sound familiar?


So why has he had seasons that are statistically more impressive since D'Antoni left, the Suns lost Marion, and yet played more defense?





Anyway, Shaq said he was taught never to complain. I respect people who are strong and give their opinions. Barkley is an easy example. Bitter Kobe is a great example. Lebron, after the Finals (and I didn't see any bitterness in what he said). Obviously there are more people.




But Shaq complaining is like Wilt talking about 20,000 women and some of the other things. There is some truth in it (some), but what is the context? It's bragging, it's ignorance. Take Wilt out of it. It's a huge man bitching and throwing punches cuz he's too big not to do damage. He's just the biggest bully and the biggest baby.






Did anyone see his barber shop shit with Penny and Dennis Scott? Dennis Scott is such a tool. Penny just overwhelmed by the girth. Everything comes down to him and what he doesn't do, tho he always brings back around what he did.




Look at that Magic team. Come on now. He was, in a vacuum, a better player then (with the exception of the 99-00 season). He talks about how there are no great big men and then he lists Patrick, Hakeem, Robinson, Zo, Dikembe in his time. But most of those guys were past or way past their prime when Shaq was dominating. They were still very good, but they were way past it and he ripped the next tier as soft and garbage.



The NBA is much better today than it was during the Laker Dynasty. There is crazy depth at center now. Just recognized quality alone was way more than what Shaq went against.




Shaq would have to play as hard as he did during his first 3 years Orlando or played like he did in 99-00 (not even in his should have been MVP year in 00-01), otherwise his stats would be LOWER now then they were back then.

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Old 02-25-2012, 06:26 PM   #33
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

Shaq says a lot of stupid shit, but he's just saying things that A LOT of people think here. Would it be better for him to lie and give a politically correct answer? The Hickman comment made me laugh. And if you remember in 2000, there was enough outrage that many were saying Hickman shouldn't be allowed to vote on the MVP anymore. Granted, that's not fair either, but there is a point that there's always someone who goes against the grain, often just for the purpose of doing so. Like when hall of fame voters don't vote for someone initially just because they don't think they should be first ballot and then vote for them a year or 2 later.

It would be disingenuous for Shaq to not give this type of answer. I specifically remember Shaq saying he thought he should've won back in 2001, 2002 and 2005. Better for him to state his actual opinion instead of what people want to hear.

The question itself was stupid, imo. Shaq being an underachiever for only winning 1 of a subjective media-based award? There are legitimate reasons to call Shaq an underachiever, but that's a weak one.

It also shows the double standard when it comes to the MVP. Many will defend their choices by differentiating between "best" and "most valuable", but then the award is held up years later as the equivalent of the best player award.

In reality, the MVP is pretty much meaningless. The last 15 years or so, it's often given to the best story, the player on the team who exceeds expectations the most(of course in this case all of the credit goes to the player and nobody stops and thinks that maybe the cast is better or contributes more than they think), or in some cases, a lifetime achievement award. There shouldn't be cases like '97 where Malone gets one in large part for that and his campaigning for the award. Way too many other things come into play other than who simply makes the biggest impact on the basketball court such as a player's season compared to their last season, and preseason expectations are weighed far too heavily.

With that being said, I actually think Nash was a fine choice in 2005, he may be the best choice. There wasn't a really clear candidate to me that year. Admittedly at the time, I was among those saying Shaq got robbed, but in hindsight, that was more due to the fact that I did want to see Shaq retire with more than 1, and because Nash's season kind of caught me off guard because prior to that, Nash was one of the better point guards, but never getting any MVP talk that I remembered.

Though I do still think Shaq had a good case for the '05 award, and aside from Shaq and Nash, nobody else really had much of a case besides Dirk. Duncan missed 16 games(similar to Shaq missing 15 in '02 preventing him from finishing higher than 3rd), KG missed the playoffs, Kobe's team went 34-48 and he also missed 16 games. Most of the usual candidates had down years and even Shaq was past his prime by that point.

So the outrage over Nash winning doesn't make as much sense to me when looking at it objectively. I do think that Kobe probably should've won the '06 award.

But yeah, Shaq should have at least 2, imo and Kobe should probably have 2 as well.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:34 PM   #34
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdreason
Nash is a great player, but him winning two MVP's destroyed the legitimacy of the award in my opinion. Everyone was caught up with "Nashsanity" and the inflated statistics from Dantoni's system... sound familiar?

Derrick Rose has inflated statistics as well. He's still a (borderline) top 5 player in the NBA. PHX, unlike Dallas made Nash the focal point, therefore more stats. Any team can give anyone the ball to put up numbers. What matters is will it result in wins.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

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Originally Posted by FKAri
Derrick Rose has inflated statistics as well. He's still a (borderline) top 5 player in the NBA. PHX, unlike Dallas made Nash the focal point, therefore more stats. Any team can give anyone the ball to put up numbers. What matters is will it result in wins.



My problem is that nobody can define what the award means anymore. Like I said, Nash is a GREAT player, but back to back MVP? C'mon son.


I'll take back what I said earlier about Nash's back to back MVP's taking away legitimacy of the award. What I will say is that it finally defined what the award is; a media-driven award given to a player on a team with a good enough record to justify the choice. That's the only thing we can really claim to know about the MVP award anymore.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:48 PM   #36
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234


The problem is not that he's being honest, but that's just self-involved. I don't think that Shaq, watching the 04-05 season, would pick Shaq over Nash...not unless he just wanted to shout out a fellow big...and if anything, because he refuses to give out isolated daps. You have to do something 9 times for Shaq to respect it. He had Amare Stoudemire as an all-star this season...then, after getting laughed at, he said it used to be about winning, but now they have these "other reasons".



He really was just talking about himself. I don't think it was based on anything. It's a disrespect to someone else. Just like him saying Aldridge is the best forward in the league, but now power forward cuz he has a finesse game in the post. Then he said Marc Gasol is not a center, but a power forward...like what does that even mean?




BTW, who would you have given the award to in 2002? Shaq, Duncan, or Kidd? I remember that everyone was hyping Kidd and I was surprised that Duncan didn't have much attention that year...and I knew he would win it. In the end, I guess I do have Jason Kidd...but I think that's Duncan's best regular season.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:59 PM   #37
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdreason
My problem is that nobody can define what the award means anymore. Like I said, Nash is a GREAT player, but back to back MVP? C'mon son.


I'll take back what I said earlier about Nash's back to back MVP's taking away legitimacy of the award. What I will say is that it finally defined what the award is; a media-driven award given to a player on a team with a good enough record to justify the choice. That's the only thing we can really claim to know about the MVP award anymore.

MVP doesnt mean shit anyway. It's given to the best player on the top 2-3 teams. Which is stupid. It should just be given to the most valuable commodity in the league. ie: best player.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:29 PM   #38
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
The problem is not that he's being honest, but that's just self-involved. I don't think that Shaq, watching the 04-05 season, would pick Shaq over Nash...not unless he just wanted to shout out a fellow big...and if anything, because he refuses to give out isolated daps. You have to do something 9 times for Shaq to respect it. He had Amare Stoudemire as an all-star this season...then, after getting laughed at, he said it used to be about winning, but now they have these "other reasons".



He really was just talking about himself. I don't think it was based on anything. It's a disrespect to someone else. Just like him saying Aldridge is the best forward in the league, but now power forward cuz he has a finesse game in the post. Then he said Marc Gasol is not a center, but a power forward...like what does that even mean?


As I said, he says stupid things, and often hyped up whoever was his current teammate no matter how stupid it sounded(an example being '08 when he called Amare the best 4 in the game and after someone brought up KG his reasoning was "KG doesn't play defense". I can't imagine he was serious with that last comment, but even so, he didn't attempt to back up his statement that Amare was better than KG.

But as I said, I simply don't view his answer here as an issue. I think it's entirely possible that he would view himself as more valuable than Nash. Quite a few did, after all, it was one of the closest, if not the closest MVP finish ever. And to this day, Nash's MVPs remain among the most controversial. Though as I said before, I do think he was deserving(more in '05 than '06)



Quote:
BTW, who would you have given the award to in 2002? Shaq, Duncan, or Kidd? I remember that everyone was hyping Kidd and I was surprised that Duncan didn't have much attention that year...and I knew he would win it. In the end, I guess I do have Jason Kidd...but I think that's Duncan's best regular season.

Duncan was the clear choice to me. Many were saying Kidd got robbed, but that's exactly what I was talking about with the media hopping on to the best story. Ultimately, they got it right with Duncan, but they did get caught up with the Nets turnaround.

I've always liked Kidd, but I'd rank the top MVP candidates like this that season.

1.Duncan
2.Shaq
3.McGrady/Garnett
5.Kidd

Shaq was still the best player in the league, imo, but missing 12 games due to injury and 3 more due to suspension vs Duncan who played all 82 regular season games was a difference.

Even so, Shaq still in 67 games led the Lakers to a 51-16 record and they were only 7-8 without him and despite playing with another elite player, the Lakers still wouldn't have even been a playoff team without Shaq in that conference, imo. That's only 1 less win than Kidd in 15 fewer games, and in a vastly superior Western Conference while the East was at it's weakest. As well as being a considerably better player. Conferences, 6 extra wins total and simply being a better player than Kidd are also why Duncan was the clear choice to me. That was also Duncan's weakest team with the Spurs with Robinson falling off noticeably that year and Parker being a rookie(not that they were a bad cast, just not good enough that people should overreact to Kidd's teams record considering they still won 6 fewer games in an inferior conference.

I would like to elaborate further on Kidd. I think people overlook the fact that the Nets were the best defensive team in the league that year. Granted, Kidd's man to man and help defense were elite for a guard, but a point guard isn't anchoring a defense like Duncan did.

I will say that Kidd's leadership and keeping his teammates happy had them more motivated to play defense, especially when compared to Marbury the previous season so he does deserve some credit for their great defense aside from being a good defender himself. Though they did have length, athleticism and some quality defenders around Kidd, as well as good finishers who fit well with him.

But Kidd replacing Marbury wasn't the only difference. Kerry Kittles missed the entire 2001 season and was a key part of the '02 cast being a quality two-way shooting guard who went from playing 0 games in '01 to all 82 in '02. Keith Van Horn also played 81 games in '02 after playing in only 49 during the '01 season, while Kenyon Martin was in his second season, Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins joined the team as rookies and Todd MacCulloch was another addition.

So it was really a different team than the previous season. Aaron Williams, Lucious Harris and Kenyon Martin were the only players who were regularly in both team's rotations throughout each season. Keith Van Horn as well, but as I mentioned, he missed 33 games in '01.

So the turnaround wasn't nearly as simple as going from 26 wins to 52. Not to mention the fact that the man Kidd replaced(Marbury) missed 15 games in '01.

And to put into perspective how inconsistent the media is when determining actual value. The Nets fell off slightly from 52 wins to 49 in '03, but Kidd himself was even better in '03 than '02.

Meanwhile, Duncan had a regular season roughly on par with his '02 season, yet won again in '03(and rightfully so), but while Kidd and Duncan were close in '02, Kidd was nowhere near winning it in '03. He finished 9th in voting despite having a better season than the one before, and not a huge difference in wins.

The players he finished behind in '03 were Duncan, KG, Kobe, T-Mac, Shaq, Iverson, Dirk and Ben Wallace.

Now how is there any consistency with that? Shaq also missed 15 games in '03, just like '02, except he didn't even play as well as he did in '02 and his team dropped from 58 wins to 50. Yet, he finishes well above Kidd in '03, but behind him in '02. Not only that, but Shaq had a teammate top 3 in MVP voting and still finished ahead of Kidd in '03.

Kidd didn't even receive a first place vote in '03. Now was he any less valuable to the Nets? No. Was he any worse? No, better in fact.

The reason he dropped so much was because they didn't have the turnaround story anymore. But being a surprise team or going to a new team doesn't make you any more valuable than if you're expected to be good or if you've been on the team for more than one year.

By the way, your comments about Duncan are true. He was pretty underrated and went under the radar somewhat in those days. Shaq and Kobe were frequently referred to as the 2 best players in the game every year they were together post-2000 and was even underrated in those GM surveys. In a survey from after the '02 regular season, Duncan didn't even finish top 3 for best player(behind Shaq, T-Mac and Kobe). In a survey from the end of the regular season, Duncan finished 3rd behind Shaq and Kobe.

He had people calling him the best player in the league during the '99 playoffs when the Spurs were winning their first title, but that seemed to be forgotten about pretty quickly and didn't start getting as much respect until the Spurs next few titles.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

LeBron shouldn't be 2x MVP by this point either. 2009, if it's just a regular season award ... that joint belongs to D. Wade, in my opinion. 2010 is for sure LeBron's though, as 2012 will be also.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:52 PM   #40
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

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Originally Posted by SwooshReturns
LeBron shouldn't be 2x MVP by this point either. 2009, if it's just a regular season award ... that joint belongs to D. Wade, in my opinion. 2010 is for sure LeBron's though, as 2012 will be also.

what screwed Wade's chances is that his Heat squad didnt win too many games.

u might as well hand LeBron the MVP in 2008 for leading the league in scoring and leading his Cavs team to 45 games while them being 0-7 without LeBron playing.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: Shaq: "Steve Nash is my boy, but not a 2 time MVP"

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what screwed Wade's chances is that his Heat squad didnt win too many games.
They won their fare share considering the PATHETIC supporting cast. Wade's 2nd best player was a rookie Michael Beasley, dude ... Wade's cast in 2009 is possibly worse than Kobe's in 2006 and 2007.

I just feel on an individual level, Wade was the actual better player in 2009. Better offensive talent, and the better defender. LeBron had the better playoffs, Wade was worn down from carrying that team all season long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsmoke
u might as well hand LeBron the MVP in 2008 for leading the league in scoring and leading his Cavs team to 45 games while them being 0-7 without LeBron playing.
Because in 2008, you had two players playing on an individual level as good or better than LeBron in 2008, with team success. Kobe in 2008 carried the same cast from 2006 and 2007 to the 3rd best record in a really competitive Western Conference before they even got Pau Gasol, which wasn't until almost half way through the season.
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