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Old 06-08-2012, 01:18 PM   #61
-p.tiddy-
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Saying "gold is a relic of the past" is ignorant. That's like saying "gravity is a relic of the past." Gold has traditionally been currency for a very good reason. It wasn't by accident, or because people were dumb in the past and now we're geniuses who can print money. It's because the natural course of the market inevitably favors gold or precious metal as money. There's nothing scary about it. Gold money is honest, efficient, trustworthy money. There's nothing about a gold standard that inherently crashes the economy. That's all BS made up by the federal reserve and government propagandists, to justify robbing us blind with their printing press.
no it's not...that is a REALLY REALLY horrible comparison


Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Fact is, the world WILL return to a precious metal standard, like it or not. Paper money will always go back to its real value, which is NOTHING. Zero! Nadda! There is no documented case in world history of a paper currency not eventually becoming WORTHLESS. The only reason gold standards end is because governments make it illegal, or remove all the actual gold from the money and horde it for themselves. That's it.
yes there are many cases...how about the US Dollar
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Old 06-08-2012, 01:26 PM   #62
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Guys keep in mind that gold is demanded worldwide and there are a bunch of other reasons/factors for the demand to own gold. It's a worldwide 24hr market and not just tied to federal reserve policies

http://www.usdebtclock.org/gold-demand-by-country.html
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:26 PM   #63
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
That's the problem when you have to accept a premise for an investment to make sense. There's a difference between "Trust me, this a good investment because of these reasons" and "Trust me, this is a good investment, because I'm secretly the exiled Crown Prince of Malta." Gold prices are not necessarily based on supply and demand like any other commodity.

You also have to understand in the past few years you had lots of people running to buy gold because the US dollar was going to collapse AND you have lots and lots of people running to buy Treasury because US debt was the safest investment in the world.

However, I'm not sure what you mean by "inflation hose" though, because it kind looks like a inflation grade-school water fountain to me.

Year 2012
Jan 2.93%
Feb 2.87%
Mar 2.65%
Apr 2.30%

QE, operation twist, stimulus

You are trusting the governments statistics on the goverments (or the Feds) inflation. You might as well be asking the guy with blood on his hands if he's responsible for the dead body in his livingroom. The inflation statistics are purposely designed to lowball the real inflation.

Last edited by joe : 06-08-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:33 PM   #64
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
no it's not...that is a REALLY REALLY horrible comparison



yes there are many cases...how about the US Dollar

The US dollar has only been off of gold for 40 years, give it some time. In that span its value has shrunk, and our debt has skyrocketed. Not a good track record.

Analogies aren't my strong suit My point is that, the fundamental reasons that gold has always been used as currency have not changed.
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:30 PM   #65
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
QE, operation twist, stimulus

You are trusting the governments statistics on the goverments (or the Feds) inflation. You might as well be asking the guy with blood on his hands if he's responsible for the dead body in his livingroom. The inflation statistics are purposely designed to lowball the real inflation.

Joe, at some point your going to have to see if your ideology holds up in light of the facts. You can't simply just keep complaining about the facts because they don't match your ideology. You should try this as an intellectual exercise.

If you don't like the cpi index of inflation (apparently because they're the equivalent of murderers in your opinion), you can check the Billion Price Project at MIT. Of course, you'll get about the same result because both are derived from real world prices.

Something that cost a dollar in mid 2008 went down to 96 cents by Jan 2009 and now is a little over $1.05. about 4 years later.

Also, I know you don't like looking at the facts, but if you did ask the guy with the blood on his hands he'll tell you he was trying to stop the flow of blood from the wound and save his friends life, but he failed. If you bothered to ask, he'll point to the bullet hole that was fired through the window.
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:20 AM   #66
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNYC
Joe, at some point your going to have to see if your ideology holds up in light of the facts. You can't simply just keep complaining about the facts because they don't match your ideology. You should try this as an intellectual exercise.

If you don't like the cpi index of inflation (apparently because they're the equivalent of murderers in your opinion), you can check the Billion Price Project at MIT. Of course, you'll get about the same result because both are derived from real world prices.

Something that cost a dollar in mid 2008 went down to 96 cents by Jan 2009 and now is a little over $1.05. about 4 years later.

Also, I know you don't like looking at the facts, but if you did ask the guy with the blood on his hands he'll tell you he was trying to stop the flow of blood from the wound and save his friends life, but he failed. If you bothered to ask, he'll point to the bullet hole that was fired through the window.

If you measure inflation the way they used to, it's higher than when Nixon instituted price controls. That's a fact! How do you feel about that?



If you measure unemployment the way they used to, it's above 16%. Another fact.



Inflation can be whatever you want it to be. Find the group or website that you agree with, copy and paste their charts, and inflation is low or high or medium, or whatever you wanted.

Let's just keep things simple.

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Old 06-09-2012, 04:42 AM   #67
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

You've educated me Joe, I had no idea such a thing as shadowstats.com existed.
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Old 06-09-2012, 04:43 AM   #68
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

The currency of the nation does not need to be backed by anything.

What matters is, WHO CREATES IT AND CONTROLS THE QUANTITY!!!!!!

So who should that be???

A. A state authorized monopoly of unelected bankers, charging interest, working for private shareholders, while using fractional reserve lending for profit, through the Federal Reserve System? What we have now.

B. Unregulated global banks under the gold standard, charging interest, controlled by private hands for private gains, in a total anarcho capitalistic free market?

Or...

C. WE THE PEOPLE!!! Debt free in the public interest, through democratically elected representatives, whose policies can be debated in an open forum and publicly held accountable?


A nation who must borrow from private banking institutions at interest, or be binded by backing their currency in gold, can never ever be truly sovereign. Those who believe that the goverment can not be trusted to handle the responsibility of creating and regulating it's own currency, also must not believe in the concept of self governance, and therefore is an anarchist. Which is okay, just admit it.

Watch and learn the deal from a real AMERICAN LIBERTARIAN, not the Austrian, goldbug, anarcho, science fiction crap.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4VaSh8MMo34

Last edited by Norcaliblunt : 06-09-2012 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:14 AM   #69
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Gold has traditionally been currency for a very good reason. It wasn't by accident, or because people were dumb in the past and now we're geniuses who can print money. It's because the natural course of the market inevitably favors gold or precious metal as money. There's nothing scary about it. Gold money is honest, efficient, trustworthy money. There's nothing about a gold standard that inherently crashes the economy. That's all BS made up by the federal reserve and government propagandists, to justify robbing us blind with their printing press.

Fact is, the world WILL return to a precious metal standard, like it or not. Paper money will always go back to its real value, which is NOTHING. Zero! Nadda! There is no documented case in world history of a paper currency not eventually becoming WORTHLESS. The only reason gold standards end is because governments make it illegal, or remove all the actual gold from the money and horde it for themselves. That's it.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=4VaSh8MMo34
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:31 PM   #70
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Not sure if Joe understands that a return to the gold standard will instantly collapse the economy into massive irrecoverable debt. There is a reason that the US is devaluing the dollar. Capitalism in the US, in its efficiency, has created more than people can consume and people are simply not confident. In world trade, the US devalues the dollar to shift the burden of overproduction overseas. This was Bernanke's gambit. Devalue the dollar, increase demands for US exports, boost GDP. The problem was China and the world went into a state of "flight-to-quality" and boosted demand for the dollar and kept the cost of US exports high.
Currency devaluation would have been an obvious solution for Greece, but they lack a central bank and their currency is issued by the European Central Bank.

Last edited by shlver : 06-09-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:14 PM   #71
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcaliblunt
The currency of the nation does not need to be backed by anything.

What matters is, WHO CREATES IT AND CONTROLS THE QUANTITY!!!!!!

So who should that be???

A. A state authorized monopoly of unelected bankers, charging interest, working for private shareholders, while using fractional reserve lending for profit, through the Federal Reserve System? What we have now.

B. Unregulated global banks under the gold standard, charging interest, controlled by private hands for private gains, in a total anarcho capitalistic free market?

Or...

C. WE THE PEOPLE!!! Debt free in the public interest, through democratically elected representatives, whose policies can be debated in an open forum and publicly held accountable?


A nation who must borrow from private banking institutions at interest, or be binded by backing their currency in gold, can never ever be truly sovereign. Those who believe that the goverment can not be trusted to handle the responsibility of creating and regulating it's own currency, also must not believe in the concept of self governance, and therefore is an anarchist. Which is okay, just admit it.

Watch and learn the deal from a real AMERICAN LIBERTARIAN, not the Austrian, goldbug, anarcho, science fiction crap.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4VaSh8MMo34


i agree with this
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:51 PM   #72
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

The people who say gold cant go down are the same idiots who said that real estate couldnt go down because of its intrinsic value. Gold is following the exact same bubble that real estate went through a few years ago and in another couple of years it will also crash. It wont be as bad because its not bought on credit the way real estate is, but it will still go down.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:57 PM   #73
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Saying "gold is a relic of the past" is ignorant. That's like saying "gravity is a relic of the past." Gold has traditionally been currency for a very good reason. It wasn't by accident, or because people were dumb in the past and now we're geniuses who can print money. It's because the natural course of the market inevitably favors gold or precious metal as money. There's nothing scary about it. Gold money is honest, efficient, trustworthy money. There's nothing about a gold standard that inherently crashes the economy. That's all BS made up by the federal reserve and government propagandists, to justify robbing us blind with their printing press.

Fact is, the world WILL return to a precious metal standard, like it or not. Paper money will always go back to its real value, which is NOTHING. Zero! Nadda! There is no documented case in world history of a paper currency not eventually becoming WORTHLESS. The only reason gold standards end is because governments make it illegal, or remove all the actual gold from the money and horde it for themselves. That's it.

Well...

http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/ic...ichengreen.pdf

Quote:
there now exists agreement among most economists
that the gold standard was a key element if not the key element in the
collapse of the world economy.
Similarly, recent work by economists demonstrates
that abandonment of the gold standard was the critical precondition for recovery.

By Eichengreen and Temin, two extremely well respected academics.

The whole effing Great Depression was caused by the Fed operating under the Gold Standard (and had to raise interest rates to prevent gold outflows, which ****ed up the rest of the economy). FYI, Spain didn't go on the gold standard in the interwar period and didn't suffer nearly as much of a crisis as the other countries did.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:13 AM   #74
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
If you measure inflation the way they used to, it's higher than when Nixon instituted price controls. That's a fact! How do you feel about that?



If you measure unemployment the way they used to, it's above 16%. Another fact.



Inflation can be whatever you want it to be. Find the group or website that you agree with, copy and paste their charts, and inflation is low or high or medium, or whatever you wanted.

Let's just keep things simple.

very interesting material. do you have information about shadowstats' methodology? I'm interested in knowing whether they collect the data or compute it via some unpublished numbers or do a correction of sorts

the appearance of the inflation curves looked so similar that it seems they just added 2% to the official number

but the unemployment curve actualy looks like it has data points so I'm wondering how that's computed

Last edited by heyhey : 06-10-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:45 AM   #75
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Default Re: Gold is the best investment

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyhey
very interesting material. do you have information about shadowstats' methodology? I'm interested in knowing whether they collect the data or compute it via some unpublished numbers or do a correction of sorts

the appearance of the inflation curves looked so similar that it seems they just added 2% to the official number

but the unemployment curve actualy looks like it has data points so I'm wondering how that's computed

Ummm I forget where I got the unemployment graph. Google "the old way of measuring unemployment" or something like. Or, "the real unemployment rate" would be even better. I won't vouch for the sources I put up there specifically, but I've seen similar numbers from a few different places. The gov. doesn't deny that the unemployment and cpi statistics have been changed to show lower numbers. They just say the new numbers are more accurate or useful, where I think they changed them to mask the effects of their policies.

I just hope people see my main point, which is that statistics are pretty useless in the grand scheme. Everyone has statistics that back up their argument. Numbers don't lie, but humans do. And humans are what creates the formulas, and gives significance to the results.
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