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Old 07-02-2013, 04:54 PM   #4411
MJ23forever
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Yup, most people don't realize that the one abrasion found on Trayvon's hands was on his off-hand, his left. Who randomly and without motive attacks a man, tries to inexplicably kill him... but punching him with his off-hand?


A good straight left is more powerful than a looping right even if you're right handed.


Quote:
Both were on the ground and this point and Zim being dazed momentarily gave Trayvon the opportunity to initially get on top in an attempt to hold him down while he called out for someone to help him. Wrestling match ensued until Zim, with his extensive MMA training and experience, was able to get 'wrist control' and reverse positions- him on top, Trayvon on the bottom, and was able to unholster, aim, and fire one shot into Trayvon's heart.

Except gun shot residue on the shirt shows that Trayvon was leaning forward, causing his shirt to hang forward off his body.

Your theory is directly contradicted by the evidence.

Zim's head was hit on the concrete multiple times because he had injuries on the side of the head. Of course, he resisted the some of the bashing so some of the injuries are less visible. Good witnessed he saw Zim on the ground and Trayvon was not on the ground at any point before he got shot. And Trayvon threw a punch with the hand that was available, maybe Zim had his right hand in control-

Quote:
And as the medical examiner just testified

You mean the medical examiner who never saw Zimmerman in the flesh, and who based her testimony off of pictures that she admits are distorted? (she had issue with the defense's pictures, but hers weren't any better)
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:57 PM   #4412
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude77
- you have no idea whether tm was a 'suspicious person' or not .. again we weren't there .. we don't know what gz was seeing ..
He saw a teen walking in the rain. You are going to pretend you don't know this?
Quote:
- you're arguing this case based off your emotions .. that's good and all but I'll stick with the facts of the case ..
I will ask you simple questions one more time.
Quote:
- gz wasn't stalking him .. he had no intention or thoughts of doing anything to tm .. the fact that he called the police is proof of this .. he called the police so they could come and take care of it ..

I'm arguing off of my emotions, huh. Who said anything about stalking? You try to think for Zimmerman and even see a suspicious person for him. He was walking in the rain. Zim sounds a bit nuts but you think its good clear thinking because you think like him.

Simple question to you. Did Zim see and profile Trayvon? Did he follow him?

If you don't have two established facts right now you never will. Just answer the simple question.
Quote:
- gz is a resident there .. he's aware of a rash of break ins .. he's keeping an eye out for anyone who may look out of place or suspicious .. he has every right to do this .. he spots tm which to him seemed to look suspicious .. again we don't know what he was seeing ..

I don't care. Please point out the fact to me in your babble. Are you saying his skittles looks just like breaking in tools???
Quote:
- gz calls it in(which means he has no intention of attacking and killing tm) .. in fact he mentions in the call about meeting up with an officer somewhere there when they arrive ..
No facts there either. Your guess work on how Zim's crazy mind works. It seems logical to make this quess but he's makes a lot of irrational dumb decisions. Regardless. Zim is now pursuing a teen who was guilty of walking in the rain, with a gun. Is this not a fact or not?
Quote:

- dispatcher asks him where tm is .. gz attempts to keep track of tm so he can tell the police where he is when they get there .. he has every right to do this ..
He lives in a place with only three blocks in the gated community. He should know the numbers start on one end by all means. He can't be that stupid. Simply can not be. But this is not a fact so I won't claim it as one.

Zimmerman is cursing and swearing that a boy with skittles is a criminal when he isn't. Is this a fact or not? Just answer the question. Why does Zim hate somebody he doesn't know and will kill in a few minutes? Simple question.

Quote:
- somewhere in that timespan, they end up encountering each other ..

- the rest is up for debate
Simple question. Are these facts or not?

Zimmer seen him and incorrectly profiled him.
Trayvon did nothing wrong to be profiled
Zim was cursing Trayvon and saying "they always get away" and following him with a gun.
Zim was told not to follow him but does so anyway.
Trayvon tried to evade Zimmerman.
Zim kills Trayvon.

These are facts. You are running away from them because it confronts something in you that you are not ready to deal with. All of those facts are products of Zimmer's incorrect thoughts and foul follow-up actions. Please tell me where you think he was bright and correct in his thinking and maybe I will contribute your thought to Psychology Today.

One can only make guesswork that Trayvon got hostile because the creep was following him and punched him. But Zimmerman was overzealous, incredibly stupid, and wrong from the very beginning. And the gun might have been exposed from the very beginning but that is guess work on our part. But its funny how the only the guesswork makes Zim look good and Trayvon bad in this whole scenario. The facts paint a horrible picture.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:05 PM   #4413
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
I have no idea where Zimmerman got that "Trayvon (or the "suspect") pounded me 30 times as I was yelling for someone to help me" ... seriously dude, 30 times? Even with moderate force or less, with 30 consecutive hits, Zimmerman would have his entire cranium bashed in, face beyond physical recognition and clearly he'd be unconscious.

Not in the rain, in the dark, with hands slipping and Zimmerman attempting to block as best he could.

Add in the stress and fact he was shocked from getting punched in the face and concerned about his head being pinned on the pavement, and it doesn't really matter if it was 10, 20, or 30 strikes with varying results.

His injuries were sufficient to defend himself. You don't wait until you're brain damaged to do that; you do it before so you actually survive. That's how self defense works!


Considering he screamed for help at a neighbor and physically tried to get away but was pinned, it's easy to argue he exhausted every option.

btw, a state witness testified that impacts do not have to leave marks. He could have done it once and the shooting would be justified. The shooting was justified the moment Zimmerman felt he was in danger.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:06 PM   #4414
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
A good straight left is more powerful than a looping right even if you're right handed.

Bullshit. You're telling me a jab is more powerful than a right hook (assuming the person's dominant hand is his right)? Absolute bullshit.

The medical examiner just testified that Zimmerman's injuries are only consistent with one strike . So if you're telling me that the one punch came while both were standing and Trayvon hit him with only a jab after spewing some B movie villain lines, how do you justify deadly force in that situation?

There were clearly, CLEARLY, 25-30 MMA punches and ground and pound, or whatever bullshit Zim and the idiots who believed him were spewing. Only one punch, and one impact with a hard surface (we're just assuming its concrete).

The proper response to this is a bullet in the heart?




Quote:
Except gun shot residue on the shirt shows that Trayvon was leaning forward, causing his shirt to hang forward off his body.

More bullshit.

The GSR on Trayvon's body only indicated stipling and that the shot came from intermediate range. It has no bearing on his body position. The only thing tthat indicates that is the displacement between the bullet holes in his clothing and his body, and gravity does not explain that amount of displacement. The most likely scenario is Zimmerman using his left hand to grab and pull down Trayvon clothing with his left hand.

Quote:
Your theory is directly contradicted by the evidence.

Zim's head was hit on the concrete multiple times because he had injuries on the side of the head. Of course, he resisted the some of the bashing so some of the injuries are less visible. Good witnessed he saw Zim on the ground and Trayvon was not on the ground at any point before he got shot. And Trayvon threw a punch with the hand that was available, maybe Zim had his right hand in control-



You mean the medical examiner who never saw Zimmerman in the flesh, and who based her testimony off of pictures that she admits are distorted? (she had issue with the defense's pictures, but hers weren't any better)

Everyone who has testified so far on the matter of the injuries- Det. Serino, Zim's PA, and the medical examiner are all in agreement that the only injuries Zim suffered were 'minor' or 'insignificant' or more telling, 'not consistent' with his story.

There is only evidence consistent with one punch, one impact with a hard surface.

Zim's injuries were barely visible by the time he was driven to the police station and he denied attempts to take him to the hospital 3X on the way, then several times after that and including not seeing the ENT as his PA suggested.

Face it, the struggle did not go down the way Zim described it. As Serino put it, it was 'exaggerated' to try to justify shooting an unarmed minor guest of a resident who was walking home in the heart.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:07 PM   #4415
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Yup. And Trayvon's hand would be an absolute mess. Zim also had no defensive wounds whatsoever.

You'd expect Zim to look like something like this:



Not this:



And Trayvon's hands would look like this:


Not just have one 1/4" abrasion on his off hand.

Anyone who believed Zim's account is a f*cking idiot, no offense.

The exchange of punches was brief but George got scared and acted instinctively and no one knows how it would've ended if the fight went on.

Who cares what someone else looked like in a different circumstance?

You have the right to self defense using a deadly weapon when you FEAR that you are in mortal danger.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:11 PM   #4416
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case



How did Zimmerman's hand get like that? I don't recall Zimmerman whaling on Trayvon, but looking at those knuckles suggests otherwise. Were there any postmortem photos of Trayvon? Based on looking at that, it's obvious Zimmerman got some licks in too (if not much more). Unless Zimmerman was punching the pavement.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:15 PM   #4417
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
The exchange of punches was brief but George got scared and acted instinctively and no one knows how it would've ended if the fight went on.

Yeah except there was no 'exchange of punches'. Again, the medical examiner took the stand and testified that Zim's injuries were only consistent with one strike and one impact on his head. And it most likely happened when Trayvon was defending himself against a grown man playing cops and robbers with a teenager. As Serino pointed out earlier, Zim continued to pursue Trayvon even after dispatch told him to stand down, but everyone with sense already knew that. And the girl Trayvon was on the phone with heard him say 'Get off! Get off!'.

No really a hard puzzle to put together, homie.

Your problem is your taking the word of a liar as Gospel.

Quote:
Who cares what someone else looked like in a different circumstance?

You have the right to self defense using a deadly weapon when you FEAR that you are in mortal danger.

Reasonable fear. Not when you chase someone down who runs away from you, you try to physically detain them, they defend them self by punching you ONCE and you react by shooting them in the heart.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:17 PM   #4418
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh


How did Zimmerman's hand get like that? I don't recall Zimmerman whaling on Trayvon, but looking at those knuckles suggests otherwise. Were there any postmortem photos of Trayvon? Based on looking at that, it's obvious Zimmerman got some licks in too (if not much more). Unless Zimmerman was punching the pavement.

Not Zim's hand, just a random guy who had been in a serious fight. I used that as an example of what you would expect Trayvon's hand to look like if he was 'raining down blows MMA style' 25-30 times.

Zim had no bruises on his hands, no defensive wounds whatsoever. Trayvon only had a 1/4" abrasion on his left (off hand) ring finger. No indication of more than one strike exists according to the ME.

Think I'm done here for now, might be back tomorrow afternoon if I can catch the proceedings.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:20 PM   #4419
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

I was watching the CNN recap on this and they mentioned that Zimmerman changed his story about the confrontation. First he said that Trayvon jumped out of the bushes and sucker punched him, then in the reenactment he didn't mention any bushes. He also told another version of the story about how Trayvon confronted him and asked why he's following him, which seems to match up with what Trayvon's girlfriend heard over the phone. My question is why isn't the prosecution making more of an emphasis about this?
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:23 PM   #4420
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
.........


That woman from today was an expert witness working from photographs.

That woman who dealt with the actual injuries testified last week that Zimmerman would have died if the injuries had continued, and that he saved his own life by shooting Martin.

> Zimmerman was being attacked
> Zimmerman feared for his life
> Zimmerman stopped the attack using deadly force

There is nothing more to it than this. Thanks for the red herring though.

You don't wait until your injuries are life threatening to defend yourself, you defend yourself to prevent life threatening injuries happening.

He only had to be injured, with more injuries on the way, to justify defense.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:32 PM   #4421
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Zim continued to pursue Trayvon even after dispatch told him to stand down.

Wait a minute. If dispatch (which I'm assuming is 911 dispatch, meaning police officer of the law, right?) had already told Zimmerman to back off, wouldn't Zimmerman be legally bound to follow that order? If I'm not mistaken Zimmerman was breaking the law by continuing to pursue Martin, right? If Zimmerman was "in the clear" - still somehow following the law by continuing to follow Martin even after being commanded not to, makes me question the validity of Florida state laws, how they're enforced, not enforced etc.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:39 PM   #4422
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
Wait a minute. If dispatch (which I'm assuming is 911 dispatch, meaning police officer of the law, right?) had already told Zimmerman to back off, wouldn't Zimmerman be legally bound to follow that order? If I'm not mistaken Zimmerman was breaking the law by continuing to pursue Martin, right? If Zimmerman was "in the clear" - still somehow following the law by continuing to follow Martin even after being commanded not to, makes me question the validity of Florida state laws, how they're enforced, not enforced etc.

Not a police officer, and the dispatchers are specifically instructed to not give orders, only to advise. They don't give orders because of possible liability.

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Originally Posted by 2013 Lakers
A civilian non-emergency dispatcher asked if he was following the guy, George said yes, and the civilian dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that." George said "okay."

It was not an order, and it was not law enforcement.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:40 PM   #4423
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

such emotion .. it's almost like you're related to tm .. how do you wanna execute gm .. chair or guillotine ? ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
He saw a teen walking in the rain. You are going to pretend you don't know this?

yes he saw a 'teen' walking in the rain .. you say it as if being a teen is some qualifying or redeeming quality .. it's irrelevant that he's a teen .. teens are quite capable of causing others harm .. he saw what he thought was someone who looked suspicious .. again, we didn't see what he saw ..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
You try to think for Zimmerman and even see a suspicious person for him. He was walking in the rain. Zim sounds a bit nuts but you think its good clear thinking because you think like him.

you keep ignoring relevant facts .. again, they've been having a rash of break ins and home invasions .. that's very serious .. I would be more viligant in my neighborhood if that was happening .. nothing wrong with that .. he saw someone he deemed suspicious .. nothing wrong with that ..

Quote:
Did Zim see and profile Trayvon? Did he follow him?

yeah he profiled him .. so what ? .. if I have a bunch of hoodlums causing trouble in my neighborhood, I'm gonna pay extra attention to anyone who looks suspicious around the neighborhood .. yeah he followed him .. more like keeping track of him .. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT .. apparently you have a problem with people wanting to be more vigilant and aware and protective of themselves and their property .. that's your problem .. I'm ok with that ..


Quote:
Are you saying his skittles looks just like breaking in tools???

he didn't know anything about skittles .. he saw someone who looked suspicious and called it in .. that's that ..


Quote:
Zimmer seen him and incorrectly profiled him.
-

and ? .. according to you, he's not supposed to keep an eye out for anyone suspicious because he may incorrectly profile them .. no

Quote:
Trayvon did nothing wrong to be profiled

cry me a river .. many of us have been profiled at one time or another .. I've been profiled .. I don't give a shit .. in this day and age, if you're not doing anything, 9 times out of 10, nothing will come of it .. of course if you are, chances are something will ..

Quote:
Zim was cursing Trayvon and saying "they always get away" and following him with a gun.

he's expressing his frustration at pos criminals who get away yes .. astute observation .. that doesn't mean he wanted to kill tm

Quote:
Zim was told not to follow him but does so anyway.

he was keeping track of him .. not hunting him down to kill him
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:48 PM   #4424
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Zim's injuries were barely visible by the time he was driven to the police station and he denied attempts to take him to the hospital 3X on the way, then several times after that and including not seeing the ENT as his PA suggested.

To prove your point, this photo is what, two hours after the incident?


I wouldn't even realize he had been in a fight based on that photo much less took a beating.
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Old 07-02-2013, 05:49 PM   #4425
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
That woman from today was an expert witness working from photographs.

That woman who dealt with the actual injuries testified last week that Zimmerman would have died if the injuries had continued, and that he saved his own life by shooting Martin.

> Zimmerman was being attacked
> Zimmerman feared for his life
> Zimmerman stopped the attack using deadly force

There is nothing more to it than this. Thanks for the red herring though.

You don't wait until your injuries are life threatening to defend yourself, you defend yourself to prevent life threatening injuries happening.

He only had to be injured, with more injuries on the way, to justify defense.

Wrong. These are her exact words:

Quote:
“Medically speaking, would you agree that whatever he did to stop the attack allowed him to survive it?” asked O’Mara.

“It could have, potentially, yeah. It depends on the amount of trauma he was sustaining at the time,” said Folgate.

“So, stopping the attack is what allowed him to survive it, would you agree?” asked O’Mara.

“It could have, yes,” said Folgate.

Prosecutor de la Rionda followed up by asking Folgate if she was speculating. She admitted that she wasn’t there that night.
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