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Old 07-04-2013, 12:45 AM   #4486
qrich
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
There's also manslaughter.

Which should be the end result.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:06 AM   #4487
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

The "DNA" evidence is weird...

TM was mos likely punching....( hand balled up in a fist),,,not sctratching ad clawing..

GZ said TM reached for his firearm....GZ never said TM grabbed the actual Firearm

Why would DNA e under his nails or on the gun?


DNA report also said GZ DNA WAS NOT on the trigger....does that mean G didn't fire the weapon???
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:06 AM   #4488
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

-There is no magical number of getting hit x number of times in the head before you can defend yourself from further bodily harm.
-A firearm exists to guard the owner against bodily harm.
-Zimmerman's firearm served it's purpose here.

The prosecution wasted everyone's time today with shit that doesn't matter. DNA doesn't matter here.


Quote:
SYG laws

Irrelevant as this was a vanilla self-defense scenario with SYG not being applicable.

Quote:
Trayvon fingerprints not on the gun

Not surprising there as the weapon was handled by a man for a good while and he was in wet grass.


Quote:
hit you once in self defense

Assaulting a "creepy ass cracker" unprovoked for following you is not self defense.


Quote:
Trayvon's blood not on Zimmerman's clothes

Yet again, not surprising as the bullet entry wound bleeds very little, the exit wound gushes like a whore though (if there was one) and most blood is internally contained.

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Zimmermans blood was on Trayvon's undershit

Not surprising as repeated strikes can cause blood to gush forth and a hoodie is loose clothing that moves AND it was probably moved up and away while Trayvon was rampaging.



Quote:
We learned that no evidence exists of Trayvon touching the gun or the holster as Zim told his good buddy Osterman

They only swabbed 3 parts of the gun. For blood. JUST blood. So no. Besides, the story is he REACHED for the gun. that's all you need to respond.

Quote:
If someone is hovering over you, how does your blood end up underneath their hoodie?

You ever been in a fight? Blood gets everywhere.


Quote:
There was no blood found on Zim's shirt that belonged to Trayvon even though he was (allegedly) hovering only a few inches above him after being shot in the heart.

The gunshot wound wouldn't necessarily have to bleed outwardly, and instead internally.

Quote:
During an interview March 24 with agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Livingston said: “He had a small bullet hole in his chest area that wasn’t even bleeding,” Not on the outside. Inside, however, his chest cavity had filled with 2,300 milliliters of blood, according to the autopsy. That’s about one-third of a healthy person’s total blood volume, Anderson said.

You act like gunshot wounds have to immediately cause huge outward splatters of blood. Contrary to what movies may have you believe, a gunshot wound isn't always like turning a blood faucet. It's very common to only lose a minimal amount of blood.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...man-blood-loss

-When Sanford firefighters arrived 10 minutes later, at 7:27 p.m., firefighter Stacey Livingston checked him over.

-During an interview March 24 with agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Livingston said: "He had a small bullet hole in his chest area that wasn't even bleeding,"

-Not on the outside.

>Inside, however, his chest cavity had filled with 2,300 milliliters of blood, according to the autopsy. That's about one-third of a healthy person's total blood volume, Anderson said.

One of the firefighters who examined Trayvon himself confirms he experienced little outward bleeding.

That is consistent with Zimmerman not knowing he was dead when he spread his arms out.


For the part about Trayvon having no blood on his hands, O'Mara covered that a day or two ago. If you're on top of somebody and their nose is bleeding, the blood isn't going to come out of their nose until they stand up, hence the lack of blood on Trayvon's hands.


Quote:
The defense's counter was that Zimmerman's blood was going into his throat and he was swallowing it, but was still able to scream loudly and clearly

Have you even had a bloody nose? Try laying down with the blood running down your throat. pro tip; You can still easily talk. You think if the blood from your nose goes into your throat you are smothered in so much blood that you can't speak or breathe? lol the blood dosen't gush down your throat like fruit juice.


The absence of DNA under fingernails doesn't prove anything. Neither does the absence of Trayvon's blood being on Zimmerman.

Quote:
None of the physical evidence presented thus far backs up any part of Zim's story.

It doesn't need to. Burden of proof is on the state in a murder trial.

They have to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that Zimmerman hunted Tray down with the intent to kill him.

Was that his intent? There's more than enough reasonable doubt to acquit Zimmerman easily. It doesn't matter what he did or didn't do. None of the evidence presented PROVES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that Zim's story is false. That is all that matters from a legal perspective.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:27 AM   #4489
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

People need to understand that Self Defense does not require injury In fact, it PRECLUDES injury. All that is required is an overt threat from the other party that would make any reasonable person fear for their own life or fear great bodily harm. One punch to the head has killed 40 people in Australia in the past 4 years.


Quote:
They're trying.
-Paint Zim as a wannabee cop
-Show that Zim was frustrated and angry with all the crime in his neighborhood (which a bit can be heard in his call to the non-emergency police line)
-Show that he profiled TM and went after him with a frustrated and angry mindset and wanted to take the law into his own hands
-Show that TM ran from Zim
-Also the possibility that TM was defending himself from Zim
-Point out all the inconsistencies in Zim's account of what happened
-Show that Zim was well versed in Florida self-defense law (not sure how much people will read into that as in saying that Zim knew what to do afterwards to make himself appear as innocent as possible, and yeah, you can say that's a reach)

There's also manslaughter.


Every last bit of what you said is irrelevant character assassination with no basis in hard evidence. The only thing that matters is whether George Zimmerman feared for his life. None what so ever and should be overlooked by any sane jury member. Zimmerman could be a card carrying member of the KKK, covered in swastika tattoos with a shirt on in the courtroom that says "I am a racist" and it would still boil down to hard evidence that he perused and killed Trayvon Martin in a murder case.

The manslaughter aspect is far more feasible to win, however, since they went for a MURDER case instead he will walk (unless the all women jury vote with their feelings and emotions) and he will never be taken to court over this again because of double jeopardy laws. Nor can you in Florida sue in civil court for penalties failing a civic court ruling. He's not on trial for manslaughter, he's on trial for murder. They can't tack on extra charges or charge him again after the trial, as that would violate the fifth amendment. Also, the current charge may end up getting dropped when one considers that the prosecutor filed it improperly.

btw for the people scoffing at how minor Zimmerman's injuries are, are you really suggesting that a) Zimmerman was able to accurately assess the damage being done to him while being pummeled and b) that's it's only okay to defend yourself after you've been significantly injured?

Last edited by MJ23forever : 07-04-2013 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:37 AM   #4490
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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None of the physical evidence backs up Zim's story

What about the experts who testified the gun was fired while in contact with Trayvon's sweatshirt and that it was about 6 inches away from his skin? Dosen't that support Zimmerman's story that Trayvon was on top and leaning forward with gravity pulling the sweatshirt away from Trayvon's body? Had Trayvon been on bottom the gunshot would've been in contact with both his sweatshirt and his body.

In fact, none of the physical evidence contradicts Zimmerman's story (that he acted in self defence.) Remember, the state has to prove Zimmerman acted with malice. You say "no blood found on Zim's shirt," "none of Zim's blood was found on Trayvon's hands" A lack of evidence doesn't prove he's guilty.

But keep in mind it was raining, it was humid, and some of the clothing evidence was contaminated with mold and mildew all of which degrade blood and DNA samples.

And what about the eyewitness testimony of the person with the best vantage point supporting Ziimmerman's story? John Good testified that Trayvon was "ground and pounding" Zimmerman "MMA style" and he called 911 in response to George's pleas and because "things were getting serious."


And why would Zimmerman call 911 moments before gunning down someone in cold blood?
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:41 AM   #4491
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne 1
And why would Zimmerman call 911 moments before gunning down someone in cold blood?

Master plan to make it look more believable that he didn't calculate every move, which he did.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:46 AM   #4492
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

So many false scenarios created by you guys........

I won't even bother quote
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:51 AM   #4493
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

These two parts are my favorite

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
That is consistent with Zimmerman not knowing he was dead when he spread his arms out.

Except Martin was found with his hands tucked underneath his body. In other words that didn't happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
Quote:
None of the physical evidence presented thus far backs up any part of Zim's story.
It doesn't need to. Burden of proof is on the state in a murder trial.

They have to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that Zimmerman hunted Tray down with the intent to kill him.

Was that his intent? There's more than enough reasonable doubt to acquit Zimmerman easily. It doesn't matter what he did or didn't do.

I sure Zimmerman's defense lawyers are jumping up and down with glee that none of the physical evidence supports his story. If he was telling the truth you would expect at least some of the physical evidence to go his way. The whole hunting thing.....that's not what they have to proof. For murder 2, they have to prove his intent at the time he pulled the trigger. For manslaughter, they have to prove that deadly force was not a reasonable response. They do not have to prove every single bit of evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt. When you add up all the evidence presented it has to beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean certainty. That doesn't mean no doubt.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:10 AM   #4494
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
The manslaughter aspect is far more feasible to win, however, since they went for a MURDER case instead he will walk (unless the all women jury vote with their feelings and emotions) and he will never be taken to court over this again because of double jeopardy laws. Nor can you in Florida sue in civil court for penalties failing a civic court ruling. He's not on trial for manslaughter, he's on trial for murder. They can't tack on extra charges or charge him again after the trial, as that would violate the fifth amendment. Also, the current charge may end up getting dropped when one considers that the prosecutor filed it improperly.

Manslaughter is still a possible outcome for this trial. The jury can be instructed by the judge to consider manslaughter if they don't believe they have murder. The defense can gamble and say, we want all or nothing. Murder conviction or acquittal. But ultimately, I believe it'll be up to the judge.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:21 AM   #4495
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Dude stalked a child who was walking home with a bag of skittles.

911 dispatchers told him to stop following the child, and to stay in his car.

He didn't listen, he got out of his car and the child ended up being shot and killed by a grown man.

I don't need to know any other details to know that George Zimmerman deserves the death penalty.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:37 AM   #4496
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
People need to understand that Self Defense does not require injury In fact, it PRECLUDES injury.

Why do you keep bringing this up? We know that you don't have to have a single injury (like someone could have a gun to your head, and you then defend yourself). Does getting into a fight automatically justify the use of lethal force? You make it sound like you can shoot someone for merely looking at you wrong.

Quote:
Every last bit of what you said is irrelevant character assassination with no basis in hard evidence.


False. That's what you want to believe because you seem to desperately want Zim to be innocent for whatever reasons. Pretty much every single thing you've said and every single assumption you've made have all been in favor of Zim like there's no possible way it could have been any different. I don't know exactly how it all went down, but there are some things we do know. Zim's mindset isn't one of them, though. That's speculation. I understand all the doubt in the case, which is why I don't see murder 2 happening.

Quote:
The only thing that matters is whether George Zimmerman feared for his life.

False. There's various other things. Reasonable and imminent fear. Also, if Zim was the initial aggressor or not.

Quote:
Zimmerman could be a card carrying member of the KKK, covered in swastika tattoos with a shirt on in the courtroom that says "I am a racist" and it would still boil down to hard evidence that he perused and killed Trayvon Martin in a murder case.

wut? You don't think Zim's mindset has any relevance?

Quote:
The manslaughter aspect is far more feasible to win, however, since they went for a MURDER case instead he will walk (unless the all women jury vote with their feelings and emotions)

Manslaughter is a lesser included charge. I will say that I'm kind of expecting that the verdict will be not guilty.

Quote:
btw for the people scoffing at how minor Zimmerman's injuries are, are you really suggesting that a) Zimmerman was able to accurately assess the damage being done to him while being pummeled

I'm suggesting that Zim has exaggerated his story because there's pretty much nothing to corroborate various things about it. I feel that he dressed it up to paint himself in a much better light. Most people don't think his story makes sense and that was even before the prosecution starting poking holes and pointing out all the inconsistencies. A show I was watching said that their Internet poll had 45% for yes his story made sense and 55% that thought it didn't. They also had a 'jury' of 12 people on there where lawyers laid out the story from both sides and 11 of them voted no while only 1 voted yes that his story made sense. And, this was days ago when the prosecution wasn't exactly doing a great job at the time.

Quote:
and b) that's it's only okay to defend yourself after you've been significantly injured?

Are you a broken record or are you a broken record or are you a broken record or are you a broken record or are you a broken record?

Last edited by Jackass18 : 07-04-2013 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:44 AM   #4497
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by Ne 1
And why would Zimmerman call 911 moments before gunning down someone in cold blood?

I don't think anyone's trying to make the case that Zim intended on killing TM at that point.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:01 AM   #4498
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
Assaulting a "creepy ass cracker" unprovoked for following you is not self defense.
George Zimmerman very eerily admits that upon seeing Trayvon, he reaches in his pocket to get his cell phone.

Before any physical contact.

Wrong pocket. He then goes into the other pants pocket and "whips it out."

Still
No physical contact.

THESE ARE ZIM's words. NOT MINE.

Now he then says there is physical contact as if the looking for the cell triggered it.

Trayvon is absolutely entitled fight for his life.

When were the words, "what are you doing here?" that three people heard? I am assuming before Zim's misplaced cell phone episode. So now we have to realize that there has to be some distance, anticipation and time for these events to turn into contact. There is definitely no indication that Zim wants to use the time and space to ease the situation.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../01/ng.01.html
Quote:

ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. Like I said, I was already past that, so I didn`t see exactly where he came from, but he was about where you were. And I said, I don`t have a problem. And I went to go grab my cell phone, and I had left it in a different pocket. I whipped it out of my pants pocket and I he said, You got a problem now, and then he was here and he punched me in the face.
Zim, is letting the detective know that Trayvon definitely could have read the scenario as threatening. There is no question here. Trayvon has to defend his life at this point even if he sees no gun. All of this unprovoked talk doesn't apply. He didn't identify himself either.

It reads like Zim was doing a hood street brandish your gun move if you ask me. He was apparently worried that a camera or witness caught it - I bet you he felt more light where this happened. Zim "whips out the cell phone" as if it could be a knife? I am amazed I missed this before. We missed it here. But I always said that the screams indicate that a life threat is at stake for 40 seconds.

We know Zim gets his dialog from movies so you just have to ignore that part.

Quote:
They have to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that Zimmerman hunted Tray down with the intent to kill him.

Was that his intent? There's more than enough reasonable doubt to acquit Zimmerman easily. It doesn't matter what he did or didn't do. None of the evidence presented PROVES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that Zim's story is false. That is all that matters from a legal perspective.

The reasonable doubt thing is when you don't know who the killer is. There is no doubt whatsoever who the killer is here. There is no reasonable or insane doubt about who the killer is. Now that killer must prove that the person he killed created a situation that exonerates the killer. Zim has initiated four horrible decisions that got TM killed.

The first one was profiling TM.
Second, leaving his car with a gun in pursuit of TM who had ran away.
Third not wisely using space, time to identify or mitigate his stalking presence.
Fourth using the gun to shoot rather than hit.

And TM at the very least was right to try to protect his life. Burden of proof is on Zim.

Last edited by Pointguard : 07-04-2013 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:16 AM   #4499
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by KNOW1EDGE
Dude stalked a child who was walking home with a bag of skittles.

911 dispatchers told him to stop following the child, and to stay in his car.

He didn't listen, he got out of his car and the child ended up being shot and killed by a grown man.

I don't need to know any other details to know that George Zimmerman deserves the death penalty.

He went out of the car to give the dispatcher an address. At that point it was not his intention to follow Trayvon further. He followed him earlier just to direct police to him.

Now let's break down flaws in your argument,.

- "Stalked" implies repeated actions.. No stalking occurred that night

- 911 Dispatchers are not law enforcement officers, the have no authority to give legally binding orders over the phone.

- Will not refute he got out the car, and that Trayvon died

The death penalty is reserved for murder with intent, premeditated murder, murder of law enforcement officers, murder during commision of another felony. None of which applies to this case.

Just saying, do you know all this because of facts or feelings?

Last edited by MJ23forever : 07-04-2013 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:34 AM   #4500
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
The reasonable doubt thing is when you don't know who the killer is. There is no doubt whatsoever who the killer is here. There is no reasonable or insane doubt about who the killer is. Now that killer must prove that the person he killed created a situation that exonerates the killer.

That's not true. Zimmerman has to make an affirmative defense that he was acting in self defense and he has a very low burden of proof. You can pretty much do it in closing arguments. The prosecution still has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman's was not acting in self-defense or that his use of deadly force was not reasonable. Prove the first and you're a long way to murder 2. Much harder to prove though. Prove the second and you get manslaughter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
George Zimmerman very eerily admits that upon seeing Trayvon, he reaches in his pocket to get his cell phone.

Before any physical contact.

I looked in my pocket for my cell phone was a lie Zimmerman told to explain how Martin was able to get close enough to even punch him, because as he was doing his reenactment the distances weren't making sense. So he says he had to look down for his cell phone which he couldn't find. I saw a blog that was analyzing Zimmerman for deceptive behavior and they made the point, Zimmerman goes looking for this guy who he considers a suspect, finds him and then takes his eyes off him?
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