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Old 07-19-2013, 01:45 AM   #7201
FLDFSU
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
If I'm part of a Neighborhood Watch, and someone walks into my neighborhood and looks suspicious, what am I supposed to do??

WATCH. not follow. This is the reason why the HOA got sued for 10 million dollars and quickly settled...this is the reason why the Head of the Neighborhood Watch in Florida stated that what Zimmerman did violated nearly every code they have including walking around with a loaded gun...this is the reason why the congressmen who sponsored stand your ground stated Zimmerman's action did not constitute protection under this law...this is the reason the 911 operator advised Zimmerman he did not need to follow Martin.

Watchmen are to do just that. WATCH. and report to police.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:48 AM   #7202
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by HardwoodLegend
If Trayvon had lived, beaten Zimmerman to death and claimed it was in self-defense, is there a chance he could have skated?

What is there to refute his story? Zimmerman had a gun on him, was needlessly profiling him on the 911 tape, and his history of violence and aggression would have been held against him more.

Under SYG, Trayvon Martin was well within his legal right to kill George Zimmerman if he felt he was in danger of suffering death or great bodily harm, which logically he was with a 200 lb stranger stalking and chasing him through his neighborhood. If he had taken Zim's gun and shot him to death, he could've claimed he thought Zimmerman was trying to kidnap/assault/etc him and there would be Zim's NE call and Rachel Jeantel's testimony used in court to back up his story.

Ironic isn't it?


Quote:
If I'm part of a Neighborhood Watch, and someone walks into my neighborhood and looks suspicious, what am I supposed to do??

According to the Neighborhood guidelines, which Zim knew all too well.

A) Observe and report from a safe distance.
B) Not pursue or engage in any way.
C) Not carry a weapon.

And then go to Target like you originally planned.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:51 AM   #7203
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by MJ23forever
- The gun was in Zim's hand

Doesn't need to be in his hand. Trayvon could conceivably claim that after Zimmerman lunged at him, he saw him reach for it and was able to stop him and pin his arms in time so he couldn't get to it. Thus, he would almost HAVE to beat him senseless because if he lets his arms go at any point he risks getting shot.

Trayvon was in a self-defensive position the WHOLE TIME. You seem to be ignoring this fact.


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But none of this happened, so it's a moot point.

It's not a moot point, because all of that could have happened before J. Good came outside. For all we know, Trayvon was in a self-defensive position. There is nothing that can wholly refute that.

And, it's why it's ridiculous George Zimmerman got off scot-free with all benefit of the doubt.


Quote:
Also, in that scenario Trayvon has no injuries, besides the abrasion on his hand Zimmerman obviously would. Martin couldn't have claimed self defense, since he doubled back to confront and assault Zimmerman when he could have been inside his house already. To claim self defense, his life would have had to been in immediate danger.

He could have not wanted to go inside the house for fear that this follower would find out where he lives and come back at another time to surprise him and his family. He had to ask the man who he was, but when he asked the man the man may have gotten violent with him.

Again, this could all conceivably fit as a plausible scenario.


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What is he going to claim that he feared for his life because Zimmerman had a gun? Then he would have had to explain why Zimmerman didn't use it while he was being beaten to death for several minutes.

Uhhh, maybe because he wouldn't let him use it lest he get shot to death? That's why he was beating him down? He failed in this attempt of course.


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If at any point Zimmerman lost consciousness and Martin continued to attack him until the point of death, he'd go down for murder.

No way to pinpoint exactly when someone loses consciousness and then dies. It could be simultaneous.

Trayvon was well within his rights to beat someone down who was following him with a weapon.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:04 AM   #7204
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by HardwoodLegend
Serve as Neighborhood WATCH, not Neighborhood ACT or Neighborhood ENGAGE the Dangerous Suspect.

Watch and call authorities. He went outside the realm of his duties and antagonized the situation altogether since he was in possession of a deadly weapon to begin with.

You have to follow if you have to WATCH. My eyes can't turn corners unless my feet take them around them.


Trayvon could have kept walking home.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:15 AM   #7205
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
You have to follow if you have to WATCH. My eyes can't turn corners unless my feet take them around them.

His duties were done up to the point Trayvon went out of sight. He identified him, reported him and that's that. He knew Trayvon knew he was being followed and watched, so suspicion kind of goes out the window. Who in their right mind would think Trayvon would continue with some illegal activity after he knows he's been spotted?

Once he left his point of safety (the vehicle), he assumes all risk and is actually putting Trayvon in more danger since he's the one in possession of a weapon.

In Trayvon's mind, continuing to walk home could have put him and his family in more danger. How does he know Zimmerman wasn't some criminal staking him out and casing his joint?
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:33 AM   #7206
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

no one has disputed that gz had bad judgement .. obviously .. but in the end tm attacked him .. self defense wins .. jurors got it right this time
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:37 AM   #7207
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardwoodLegend
......

Except of John Good, who was the eyewitness. He would have saw the scene and find George Zimmerman screaming for help. Mix with George calling the non-emergency dispatcher reporting a suspicious person and Trayvon would have the cards stacked against him.

Quote:
Under SYG, Trayvon Martin was well within his legal right to kill George Zimmerman

No he wasn't. SYG does not mean you won't be investigated. See my above post. With that his testimony would be suspect, and he would have been charged and sent to trial.

Last edited by MJ23forever : 07-19-2013 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:52 AM   #7208
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

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Originally Posted by dude77
no one has disputed that gz had bad judgement .. obviously .. but in the end tm attacked him .. self defense wins .. jurors got it right this time

You're still not getting the fact that "self defense" is murky as it could apply to either individual.

Zimmerman didn't deserve 100% benefit of the doubt that he was in the right during the initial confrontation.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:53 AM   #7209
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
Except of John Good, who was the eyewitness. He would have saw the scene and find George Zimmerman screaming for help. Mix with George calling the non-emergency dispatcher reporting a suspicious person and Trayvon would have the cards stacked against him.

The cards could come tumbling down fast and easy.

Trayvon could simply say, "This mysterious man was following me, when I asked him who he was and why he was following all he responded with was "Who are you? What are you doing?" I had no idea he was neighborhood watch, I saw the gun and was afraid for myself in that moment. Had I gone home, I may have put my family in jeopardy. I didn't know who this man was or what his intentions were. when he lunged at me, I snapped with survival instinct".

All of this renders Zimmerman's screaming irrelevant. There is no way to determine who attacked first. Only who was more well-equipped to kill the other.


Quote:
No he wasn't. SYG does not mean you won't be investigated. See my above post. With that his testimony would be suspect, and he would have been charged and sent to trial.

And, he could have offered a reasonable defense.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:54 AM   #7210
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Also, I'd say it's almost impossible to beat someone to death and claim self defense. At some point (long before they die) they are incapacitated. At that point it's manslaughter.

A better question is, when he's beating him up, when Zimmerman pulls his gun to shoot him in self defense, could Trayvon have grabbed the gun and shot Zimmerman, saying THAT was self defense? If someone is about to kill you in self defense, do you have a right to self defense? I wonder is there some sort of inception like spiral of competing self defense claims?


btw there's no evidence he engaged the suspect.

FOUR MINUTES from when he lost sight to when Trayvon re opened the interaction.

In his 46 NE calls previously he had shown 0 propensity for vigilantism or even the courage to talk to the people he found suspect

Last edited by MJ23forever : 07-19-2013 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:55 AM   #7211
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude77
no one has disputed that gz had bad judgement .. obviously .. but in the end tm attacked him .. self defense wins .. jurors got it right this time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-OPo6tjW0

I bet she wishes she had George Zmmerman style neighborhood watch.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:00 AM   #7212
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

SYG means you don't have to retreat, but you are not allowed to reengage. Why did you go back to him?

And pummeling a man's head until he dies and a single gun shot are not the same thing when you are talking self-defense. It's like Jodie Arias claiming she stabbed her boyfriend over 30 times in self defense.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:03 AM   #7213
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardwoodLegend
You're still not getting the fact that "self defense" is murky as it could apply to either individual.

Zimmerman didn't deserve 100% benefit of the doubt that he was in the right during the initial confrontation.

regardless .. tm was on a relentless attack and wouldn't stop .. even after someone came out and yelled at him to stop .. even after gz was yelling out for his life .. those sounded like death howls .. he was gonna 'finish' the 'creepy cracker' .. gz was in the right .. the jurors got it right
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:04 AM   #7214
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23forever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq-OPo6tjW0

I bet she wishes she had George Zmmerman style neighborhood watch.

indeed .. by the way, that guy needs to be executed .. that's not a human
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:05 AM   #7215
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Default Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Between the two of you, you have 1200 posts in this thread defending an armed man who could have possibly been the aggressor. Insanity.

And, punching someone to knock them out cold as you secure their arms before they pull out a gun and shoot you is different than Jodi Arias stabbing 30 times. In the former, you can't accurately gauge when someone is knocked out or dead. In the latter, there is a more accurate way to determine it.
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