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Old 04-08-2012, 09:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: How many teams won titles with two ball-dominant starters?

Originally Posted by sbw19
Those PJax teams ran the triangle, no one dominated the ball the way a PG in a traditional system does. Don't think Kidd/Dirk hold on to the ball that long. Manu does create but usually comes off the bench, and even when he doesn't it's Parker who orchestrates the offense.

Dude Shaq and Kobe were ball dominant players, dont try to sit there and dismiss them under the guise of the triangle offense.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: How many teams won titles with two ball-dominant starters?

Originally Posted by DStebb716
Lmao at Kidd. We're talkin at the time of them winning the championship. Not 20 years ago.

It was a joke.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: How many teams won titles with two ball-dominant starters?

By the time Jordan was winning titles, he wasn't really a ball-dominant player. In fact, he changed in that regard during the '89-'90 season when Phil took over, he started playing off the ball a lot and scoring a ton of his points on jumpers, particularly when compared to the 80's, especially the '89 season which was really the only year he seemed as ball-dominant as Wade and Lebron were before joining the same team.

Pippen wasn't really ball-dominant either, but at least as ball-dominant as Jordan post-'91, if not more because he was their facilitator and point forward, though the triangle never had a real point guard.

Shaq and Kobe weren't really ball-dominant either. Phil had Shaq change his style to fit the offense by having him try to establish deeper position before the catch and usually if he couldn't get a quick shot off in the post, kick it out immediately and try to re-post with deeper position. With that said, he did sometimes catch the ball further out, feel for the defender and back his way in for a move, but usually when he did that, he'd get doubled after a dribble or 2, and then kick the ball out if the jump hook or turnaround wasn't there.

So he wasn't really ball-dominant, he played within the triangle, he was more ball-dominant in the 90's.

Kobe could be ball-dominant as Phil spent a lot of time trying to get him out of the habit of going 1 on 1 a lot, but he wasn't as much of their perimeter facilitator during the first title as Harper had a good amount of responsibility in that regard.

He was ball-dominant earlier in the '00-'01 season when he was trying to get his a lot, by the time he came back later in the season and in the playoffs, he changed his approach a lot, though. He was their true facilitator, but running the triangle is much different than running other more guard oriented offenses, and a lot of Kobe's own points were coming easier by the '01 playoffs. He really was playing within the flow of the offense, and also taking advantage of transition opportunities a lot more, which is why the duo worked so well and allowed others opportunities even with Shaq averaging 30 and Kobe averaging 29. That's why Fisher and arguably Fox played the best all of their career during the '01 playoffs.

The triangle really isn't an offense where you'll be ball-dominant in the way that a point guard will, or even some of those 80's small forwards like Dantley, or more recently Melo who played in the post a lot and used more clock for their shots.

That's also why it's such a great system, it does get everyone involved because the ball is moving and everyone is touching the ball. Of course, neither the Bulls or Lakers ran the triangle all the time, they went out of the offense at times if someone had it going, or sometimes late in games, plus nobody is in their set offense all the time with transition opportunities.

As Phil pointed out, ball-dominance is probably why teams haven't been carried by star point guards to championships. Granted, Magic did it in '87 and '88 as the man, but top 10 all-time players are exceptions, and even then, they had the devastating fastbreak to get everyone involved, plus 3 legitimate post options with Kareem, Worthy and Magic, and a high scoring 2 guard in Scott.

And for LA's first title of the 80's in 1980, Kareem was clearly the man and the offense really revolved around him, and even by '82 and '85, it was the combo of Magic leading the break and Kareem carrying the half court offense, but also with a ridiculous amount of weapons on those '82 and '85 teams.
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