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Old 04-15-2012, 05:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1


Occupy is alot closer to the things you believe than not

have you ever actually been to an encampment? They are filled with Ron Paul supporters and libertarians as much as any thing else.

they dont support kidnapping and all that other BS...

if the tea party would smarten up and stop being soo preoccupied with Obama and get back to their beef about the FED? maybe the 2 groups could find common ground and become allies which would make both groups more powerful.

the idea that these groups are enemies or that occupy is out to get other people's money is propaganda that had assumed you would be smarter than

If we lived in a real capitalist society, Wall Street would have been made to pay for what they did to the economy.... they wouldnt get bailed out by the FED in the 'free market'....

"Free college"
"Liveable wage for all people"
"Raise taxes on the 1%"

I may very well be wrong, and let me know if I am, but the impression I'm getting is that occupy is a largely leftist movement. Yes, I agree, we all know that not everyone there is a leftist. I assumed that was implied. But overall, this doesn't feel like a libertarian/anarchist movement. Would you say OWS does not lean to the left? Again, I may be wrong about that, and no, I haven't been there.

The Tea Party is just as silly. "We want lower government spending (except on all the things we support)!!!!!"

I disagree that these two groups are not enemies. They both want to point the government guns at different targets. But they both still support the use of the guns. They are playing the same game, the state game, but they're enemies within that game.

What I'm waiting for, is people to give up this game. Stop trying to control other people. We are better, as a species, than allowing some violent institution to steal money for us and start wars and kidnap (i.e. imprison) anyone that doesn't agree with it. In other words.. let's stop worshiping Zeus and Rah and Dragons.

The state........ is Zeus. It's a dragon. It's Middle Ages religion. It's serfdom, fiefdom.

As a species, we just need to get over it. Move on. Grow up from these archaic notions of our ancestors. Stop pretending that it's righteous to support these government programs, but despicable to support those government programs.

The knee jerk reactions of both groups is to go to the government to solve their problems. That's the mentality that we need to lose. And I'm definitely not trying to act pompous, because I felt the same way for most of my life. We are all taught to think this way, from both the schools and from society. I don't blame the OWS or Tea Party people for feeling the way they feel.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:42 PM   #17
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

the 1% is paying 40% of the nation's taxes. Jesus christ these occupy people are selfish? Honestly they just seem like whiny selfish freeloaders! If they hate their own financial situation so much they should be working hard and learning how to improve it rather than just quit their jobs and whine and moan and blame a small successful minority for all of their problems.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

i dont understand why free healthcare is such an outrageous demand. look around the world and almost every other developed nation has a free healthcare system. it would certainly be quite an undertaking, as the current US healthcare system is basically fcked beyond all hope, especially because of the recent insurance and pharma bailout, aka "obamacare", but if everybody else can manage free healthcare, i dont see why the US cant do it.

consider this: the us already spends more than 1/4 of the entire $3.7 trillion budget on medicare and medicaid, more money than we spend on anything else. how is it possible that we spend a bigger % of the budget on healthcare than they do in the UK without having free healthcare? because the US healthcare system has nothing to do with actually improving health, and everything to do with generating profit for pharm and insurance companies. obviously the entire system needs to be overhauled.

Last edited by Nanners : 04-15-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
i dont understand why free healthcare is such an outrageous demand. look around the world and almost every other developed nation has a free healthcare system. it would certainly be quite an undertaking, as the current US healthcare system is basically fcked beyond all hope, especially because of the recent insurance and pharma bailout, aka "obamacare", but if everybody else can manage free healthcare, i dont see why the US cant do it.

consider this: the us already spends more than 1/4 of the entire $3.7 trillion budget on medicare and medicaid, more money than we spend on anything else. how is it possible that we spend a bigger % of the budget on healthcare than they do in the UK without having free healthcare? because the US healthcare system has nothing to do with actually improving health, and everything to do with generating profit for pharm and insurance companies.
damn that sucks.

Also though in the UK, doctors who work in the NHS make really shitty wages, like 24k a year, still decent but not good considering they had to study atleast 8 years. ALSO I think they all have to work for atleast a year in the NHS but it might be 2, before they can open their own private practice and start earning more.


In the US when you get into medicine I believe you start earning a much higher wage out of medical school once you stop being an intern.

So it would be harder to convince all these Americans to become doctors if the wages were that low.

In the UK they don't need as many doctors because the population is much lower.

But who knows, maybe that wouldnt be a problem at all in the US and the same amount of people would still be going in to medicine.


ON another note, while this seems like propaganda, based off my interviews with the occupy idiots, he seems like the standard Occupy person
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...wKxUz7osM&NR=1

I HONESTLY DID BELIEVE THAT MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WERE WELL EDUCATED RADICAL THINKERS, I honestly thought that most of them knew what they were talking about atleast and I would be able to learn alot and from their point of view, it's not like I was biased going in there, but instead all I ran into was idiots, stoners, more idiots, and random homeless dudes getting free stuff from them.

Last edited by Nick Young : 04-15-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
i dont understand why free healthcare is such an outrageous demand. look around the world and almost every other developed nation has a free healthcare system. it would certainly be quite an undertaking, as the current US healthcare system is basically fcked beyond all hope, especially because of the recent insurance and pharma bailout, aka "obamacare", but if everybody else can manage free healthcare, i dont see why the US cant do it.

consider this: the us already spends more than 1/4 of the entire $3.7 trillion budget on medicare and medicaid, more money than we spend on anything else. how is it possible that we spend a bigger % of the budget on healthcare than they do in the UK without having free healthcare? because the US healthcare system has nothing to do with actually improving health, and everything to do with generating profit for pharm and insurance companies. obviously the entire system needs to be overhauled.

Is stealing wrong?

Yes.

How is "free" health care paid for? It is paid for, by taking money from people, many of whom do not want to pay. If those people refuse to pay, they are arrested. If they resist arrest, they can be killed.

That is all you need to know. You don't need graphs, you don't need statistics, you don't need to breakdown the budget or the bailouts. Just ask yourself if stealing is wrong. Ask yourself if kidnapping people who refuse to give you their money is wrong.

That is why "free" healthcare is such an outrageous demand.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:03 PM   #21
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Young
the 1% is paying 40% of the nation's taxes. Jesus christ these occupy people are selfish? Honestly they just seem like whiny selfish freeloaders! If they hate their own financial situation so much they should be working hard and learning how to improve it rather than just quit their jobs and whine and moan and blame a small successful minority for all of their problems.

No, they pay 40% of the total INCOME TAX. The top 1 percent owns 34.5% of wealth in the U.S, yet they only contribute 22.7% to the total tax collective of the U.S.( Which includes all taxes, not just income tax). Your first statement is simply horsesh*t.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
"Free college"
"Liveable wage for all people"
"Raise taxes on the 1%"

I may very well be wrong, and let me know if I am, but the impression I'm getting is that occupy is a largely leftist movement. Yes, I agree, we all know that not everyone there is a leftist. I assumed that was implied. But overall, this doesn't feel like a libertarian/anarchist movement. Would you say OWS does not lean to the left? Again, I may be wrong about that, and no, I haven't been there.

The Tea Party is just as silly. "We want lower government spending (except on all the things we support)!!!!!"

I disagree that these two groups are not enemies. They both want to point the government guns at different targets. But they both still support the use of the guns. They are playing the same game, the state game, but they're enemies within that game.

What I'm waiting for, is people to give up this game. Stop trying to control other people. We are better, as a species, than allowing some violent institution to steal money for us and start wars and kidnap (i.e. imprison) anyone that doesn't agree with it. In other words.. let's stop worshiping Zeus and Rah and Dragons.

The state........ is Zeus. It's a dragon. It's Middle Ages religion. It's serfdom, fiefdom.

As a species, we just need to get over it. Move on. Grow up from these archaic notions of our ancestors. Stop pretending that it's righteous to support these government programs, but despicable to support those government programs.

The knee jerk reactions of both groups is to go to the government to solve their problems. That's the mentality that we need to lose. And I'm definitely not trying to act pompous, because I felt the same way for most of my life. We are all taught to think this way, from both the schools and from society. I don't blame the OWS or Tea Party people for feeling the way they feel.

archaic notions of our ancestors.. do you think libertarians are reinventing the wheel or something? lol rousseau discussed social bondage about 200 years ago

most of libertarianism or anarchism has its intellectual foundations in works of our ancestors.

we are not taught to think a certain way. most people just don't try hard enough to learn. and instead of just attacking social institutions maybe it would be better to suggest alternatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
i dont understand why free healthcare is such an outrageous demand. look around the world and almost every other developed nation has a free healthcare system. it would certainly be quite an undertaking, as the current US healthcare system is basically fcked beyond all hope, especially because of the recent insurance and pharma bailout, aka "obamacare", but if everybody else can manage free healthcare, i dont see why the US cant do it.

consider this: the us already spends more than 1/4 of the entire $3.7 trillion budget on medicare and medicaid, more money than we spend on anything else. how is it possible that we spend a bigger % of the budget on healthcare than they do in the UK without having free healthcare? because the US healthcare system has nothing to do with actually improving health, and everything to do with generating profit for pharm and insurance companies. obviously the entire system needs to be overhauled.

the issue with healthcare is that people conflate economic opposition and philosophical opposition to the public health care program. Many people will not support a mandatory health insurance program even if it is more economically efficient.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Is stealing wrong?

Yes.

How is "free" health care paid for? It is paid for, by taking money from people, many of whom do not want to pay. If those people refuse to pay, they are arrested. If they resist arrest, they can be killed.

That is all you need to know. You don't need graphs, you don't need statistics, you don't need to breakdown the budget or the bailouts. Just ask yourself if stealing is wrong. Ask yourself if kidnapping people who refuse to give you their money is wrong.

That is why "free" healthcare is such an outrageous demand.

are you kidding me man? maybe "free" wasnt the right word.

A tax funded universal health care system (like ones seen in virtually every developed nation on the planet) would not be stealing any more than driving down a tax funded highway is stealing. are you saying we should just go to total anarchy and the government should cease to do anything at all?

edit: if you actually read my post, you would see that i am saying that the current health care system already takes up an entire 1/4 of the money the government is "stealing" from you, and that it needs to be overhauled because they are wasting money.

Last edited by Nanners : 04-15-2012 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Is stealing wrong?

Yes.

How is "free" health care paid for? It is paid for, by taking money from people, many of whom do not want to pay. If those people refuse to pay, they are arrested. If they resist arrest, they can be killed.

That is all you need to know. You don't need graphs, you don't need statistics, you don't need to breakdown the budget or the bailouts. Just ask yourself if stealing is wrong. Ask yourself if kidnapping people who refuse to give you their money is wrong.

That is why "free" healthcare is such an outrageous demand.
lol you can't be serious!
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:32 PM   #25
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyhey
archaic notions of our ancestors.. do you think libertarians are reinventing the wheel or something? lol rousseau discussed social bondage about 200 years ago

most of libertarianism or anarchism has its intellectual foundations in works of our ancestors.

we are not taught to think a certain way. most people just don't try hard enough to learn. and instead of just attacking social institutions maybe it would be better to suggest alternatives.


You're comparing apples to oranges. Human civilization has been shaped by pro-state ideology, which has only increased over time. At this point, nearly the entire world is under the control of a government. That's no comparison to anarchism/libertarianism.

Of course we're taught to think a certain way. When you were 4 years old, was it natural to play video games? Was it natural to give someone a "firm handshake" and "look them in the eye" during a job interview? Our world view is shaped by the society we are born into. That's not a positive or a negative statement, just a truthful statement.

It's only natural that our views about government would be shaped by society. People disagree about what kind of government they prefer, or what spending they support. But very few people actually want there to be no government. This sends a very strong signal to kids. The signal is, government is normal. Government is the way that humans live. The answer to social problems is not "no government," the answer is.. change the government. Petition the government. Vote. Write your Congressman. The idea of a stateless society is rarely discussed, and that signal is heard loud and clear by kids.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:44 PM   #26
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Umm...government is the way that humans live. If there is an alternative that isn't some utopian fairytale, then I would love to hear it.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
You're comparing apples to oranges. Human civilization has been shaped by pro-state ideology, which has only increased over time. At this point, nearly the entire world is under the control of a government. That's no comparison to anarchism/libertarianism.

Of course we're taught to think a certain way. When you were 4 years old, was it natural to play video games? Was it natural to give someone a "firm handshake" and "look them in the eye" during a job interview? Our world view is shaped by the society we are born into. That's not a positive or a negative statement, just a truthful statement.

It's only natural that our views about government would be shaped by society. People disagree about what kind of government they prefer, or what spending they support. But very few people actually want there to be no government. This sends a very strong signal to kids. The signal is, government is normal. Government is the way that humans live. The answer to social problems is not "no government," the answer is.. change the government. Petition the government. Vote. Write your Congressman. The idea of a stateless society is rarely discussed, and that signal is heard loud and clear by kids.


wtf are you even talking about? you are basically impossible to understand, but it sounds like you are saying you want there to be no government. you want anarchy, right?

in other words, you want to live in a society that does not have things like police, firemen, highways, national parks, public schools, justice system, etc? you would give up all that just so you dont have to give any money to uncle sam?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
wtf are you even talking about? you are basically impossible to understand, but it sounds like you are saying you want there to be no government. you want anarchy, right?

in other words, you want to live in a society that does not have things like police, firemen, highways, national parks, public schools, justice system, etc? you would give up all that just so you dont have to give any money to uncle sam?
Reading a single random chapter out of some random philosophy book on social construct does that to you.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
are you kidding me man? maybe "free" wasnt the right word.

A tax funded universal health care system (like ones seen in virtually every developed nation on the planet) would not be stealing any more than driving down a tax funded highway is stealing. are you saying we should just go to total anarchy and the government should cease to do anything at all?

edit: if you actually read my post, you would see that i am saying that the current health care system already takes up an entire 1/4 of the money the government is "stealing" from you, and that it needs to be overhauled because they are wasting money.

Driving down the highway is not stealing. That's like saying, watching HBO on a stolen television is stealing. No. The stealing takes place when your money is taken. The roads, the healthcare, the wars.. that is just what they buy with the stolen money.

I did read your post, and I agree with you to the extent that the current health care system is muffed up. Nobody with a brain denies that.

But more stealing, more force, more violence, is not the answer. Taking peoples money at the point of a gun, is not how civilized people solve problems.

And if you disagree government spending ='s stealing, consider this:

The government cannot do anything besides steal. That is their only method. They have no money. They don't produce wealth. All they can do is take money from others. Whether they tax, borrow it against the labor of future generations, or print it and destroy our purchasing power.

If you don't give the government your money, they will show up with cuffs. If you try to defend yourself, the same way you'd defend yourself against anyone else trying to rob you, they reserve the right to assault or kill you. Legally.

I'm not saying anything untrue. That is the facts of the situation. If you think that is a good way to solve problems, fine. I do not think it is.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
wtf are you even talking about? you are basically impossible to understand, but it sounds like you are saying you want there to be no government. you want anarchy, right?

in other words, you want to live in a society that does not have things like police, firemen, highways, national parks, public schools, justice system, etc? you would give up all that just so you dont have to give any money to uncle sam?

Here is your logic: "The government does X. Therefore, if there was no government, X would not be done."

Did I say I don't want highways, firemen, or police? Did I say I don't want a justice system? No. You are assuming that without the government, these things would not get done.

Sorry if my post was hard to understand. I try to speak as clearly as possible.

The goal is not anti-government. The goal is anti-initiation of force.

The government, is but one example of violent force. Other examples include rape, theft, and murder.

Government is an example of force, for this reason. The only way a government can fund itself, is by taking other peoples money. Or, by borrowing money against the labor of future generations. Or, by legally compelling people to use one currency, and then printing that currency.

These are all examples of theft. This theft is backed up by violence force. As in, if you don't give us your money, we will arrest you. If you create your own currency, we will arrest you. If you try to resist us, we can physically harm you.
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