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Old 04-15-2012, 06:09 PM   #31
Nick Young
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Driving down the highway is not stealing. That's like saying, watching HBO on a stolen television is stealing. No. The stealing takes place when your money is taken. The roads, the healthcare, the wars.. that is just what they buy with the stolen money.

I did read your post, and I agree with you to the extent that the current health care system is muffed up. Nobody with a brain denies that.

But more stealing, more force, more violence, is not the answer. Taking peoples money at the point of a gun, is not how civilized people solve problems.

And if you disagree government spending ='s stealing, consider this:

The government cannot do anything besides steal. That is their only method. They have no money. They don't produce wealth. All they can do is take money from others. Whether they tax, borrow it against the labor of future generations, or print it and destroy our purchasing power.

If you don't give the government your money, they will show up with cuffs. If you try to defend yourself, the same way you'd defend yourself against anyone else trying to rob you, they reserve the right to assault or kill you. Legally.

I'm not saying anything untrue. That is the facts of the situation. If you think that is a good way to solve problems, fine. I do not think it is.
don't governments produce wealth when they export resources and commodities to other nations?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by dunksby
Reading a single random chapter out of some random philosophy book on social construct does that to you.

It's so much easier to attack someones character, than to confront their arguments. It must be nice.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:12 PM   #33
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by Nick Young
don't governments produce wealth when they export resources and commodities to other nations?

How do governments gain control of resources and commodities? How does it become theirs to export?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by joe
How do governments gain control of resources and commodities? How does it become theirs to export?
they often organize it all don't they, and organize the trading with other nations as well.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:18 PM   #35
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by Nick Young
they often organize it all don't they, and organize the trading with other nations as well.

Right. And where do they get the money to afford this organization? The websites, the workers, the offices, the phones, the computers, the ships, the planes. Where does that money come from?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:21 PM   #36
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by joe
Right. And where do they get the money to afford this organization? The websites, the workers, the offices, the phones, the computers, the ships, the planes. Where does that money come from?
the gold in the treasuries, and the money they print from the national mint that they also created and organized?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:27 PM   #37
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by Nick Young
the gold in the treasuries, and the money they print from the national mint that they also created and organized?

How is any of this funded, Nick? How were they able to buy gold to put in the treasuries? How do they pay the treasury workers? How do they afford the ink that they print on the dollars?

At the very bottom of all of this, is violent force. Government taking money from people, with the threat of violence against those who refuse to pay. All I'm saying is that the sky is blue. The grass is green.

Government doesn't *ask* you for your money. They *take* your money. If you don't hand over your money, they can legally throw you in a cage. If you resist arrest, they can legally *kill you.* This is not my opinion. It is the facts of the situation.

Or, do you have a choice in whether you pay taxes? Please direct me to the website where I can opt out. And I'd like to exchange my dollars for gold based currency, created by a private company. Can you tell me a company that can do that for me?

And uh, I guess it's entirely optional for us to use US dollars? You should tell that to the gentleman in Utah, who has been arrested and labeled a domestic terrorist for creating his own currency.

Last edited by joe : 04-15-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:33 PM   #38
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by joe
How is any of this funded, Nick? How were they able to buy gold to put in the treasuries? How do they pay the treasury workers? How do they afford the ink that they print on the dollars?

At the very bottom of all of this, is violent force. Government taking money from people, with the threat of violence against those who refuse to pay. All I'm saying is that the sky is blue. The grass is green.

Government doesn't *ask* you for your money. They *take* your money. If you don't hand over your money, they can legally throw you in a cage. If you resist arrest, they can legally *kill you.* This is not my opinion. It is the facts of the situation.

Or, do you have a choice in whether you pay taxes? Please direct me to the website where I can opt out. And I'd like to exchange my dollars for gold based currency, created by a private company. Can you tell me a company that can do that for me?

And uh, I guess it's entirely optional for us to use US dollars? You should tell that to the gentleman in Utah, who has been arrested and labeled a domestic terrorist for creating his own currency.
Pretty sure the US government didn't start out with violent force brah, it started out with the constitution being written up and then all of the states peacefully voting in their acceptance of it as their governing document.

They weren't threatened with violence if they didn't vote for the constitution.

Im pretty sure in like Guam or Puerto Rico or American Samoa you don't have to pay taxes to the united states government, go there.

Well dollars are already gold based currency aren't they. Or atleast originally. But there are many websites where you can, believe it or not, exchange those dollars for real gold!
http://www.goldinvestments.co.uk/main/
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by Nick Young
Pretty sure the US government didn't start out with violent force brah, it started out with the constitution being written up and then all of the states peacefully voting in their acceptance of it as their governing document.

They weren't threatened with violence if they didn't vote for the constitution.

Im pretty sure in like Guam or Puerto Rico or American Samoa you don't have to pay taxes to the united states government, go there.

Well dollars are already gold based currency aren't they. Or atleast originally. But there are many websites where you can, believe it or not, exchange those dollars for real gold!
http://www.goldinvestments.co.uk/main/

lol. Man, the extent that people will go to deny the uglyness of their beliefs. Staggering.

So I don't believe that violent force is a good way to solve problems.. so I should leave the Usa and go to some ass backwards country? Makes sense.

The constitutional government is not excluded from what I'm saying. lol, "all the states voting their acceptance." Ya, the states! What about the people? Did they have a choice? You're talking about individual governments voting to construct a central government, and saying that isn't an example of force. Did Jim the blacksmith from Virginia have a say?

Google capital gains tax. Google "Utah man arrested for creating his own currency." Do you honestly think people use this crappy paper money by choice?Why aren't alternative currencies popping up? Why aren't stores accepting gold/silver/anything else besides dollars? Maybe, just maybe..... there are incentives and punishments in place to keep people using dollars.

It's impossible to talk to people who deny the very basics and facts. If you deny that taxes are collected by violent force... what more can really be said? I understand you don't hear that everyday, but if it's explained to you and you still won't admit it........
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by joe
You're comparing apples to oranges. Human civilization has been shaped by pro-state ideology, which has only increased over time. At this point, nearly the entire world is under the control of a government. That's no comparison to anarchism/libertarianism.

Of course we're taught to think a certain way. When you were 4 years old, was it natural to play video games? Was it natural to give someone a "firm handshake" and "look them in the eye" during a job interview? Our world view is shaped by the society we are born into. That's not a positive or a negative statement, just a truthful statement.

It's only natural that our views about government would be shaped by society. People disagree about what kind of government they prefer, or what spending they support. But very few people actually want there to be no government. This sends a very strong signal to kids. The signal is, government is normal. Government is the way that humans live. The answer to social problems is not "no government," the answer is.. change the government. Petition the government. Vote. Write your Congressman. The idea of a stateless society is rarely discussed, and that signal is heard loud and clear by kids.

anarchism is certainly discussed so I don't get your point.

yes very few people actually want there to be no government. that's why we have government. you seem to be convinced that wanting a government is somehow misguided but that's just like your opinion man. and an opinion not admittedly shared by most so why would significant societal sources be dedicated to explore that view when it is unpopular?

obviously our views are culture bound but that is a imperfection of human existence and not of society. Any opinion or view can become oppressive when adopted widely.

Is your stance all forms of governments are illegitimate?
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:03 PM   #41
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by joe
Is stealing wrong?

Yes.

How is "free" health care paid for? It is paid for, by taking money from people, many of whom do not want to pay. If those people refuse to pay, they are arrested. If they resist arrest, they can be killed.

That is all you need to know. You don't need graphs, you don't need statistics, you don't need to breakdown the budget or the bailouts. Just ask yourself if stealing is wrong. Ask yourself if kidnapping people who refuse to give you their money is wrong.

That is why "free" healthcare is such an outrageous demand.

You could make that case for anything.

"I don't want to pay for the military."

"Too bad, do it or you're arrested."

"I don't want to pay for the police."

"Too bad, do it or you're arrested."

Although, I'm sure you actually believe we shouldn't pay for the military or the police. So this example is less for you and more for the people reading it who think, "Hey, that makes sense."
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:07 PM   #42
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
It's impossible to talk to people who deny the very basics and facts. If you deny that taxes are collected by violent force... what more can really be said? I understand you don't hear that everyday, but if it's explained to you and you still won't admit it........
just because taxes are collected via force doesn't mean it's illegitimate. People have consented, whether tacitly or affirmative, to surrender taxes for the benefit and protection of the state in which they live.

Instead of being so dogmatic and believing that you are plato trying to rescue us from the cave, consider the possibility that many of us have also thought and deliberated on the things you are talking about, spent time reading the primary intellectual sources on which the ideas are founded and just came to different conclusions. You always make it seem like everyone else ignorant when in the end we maybe as well read as you or even more but just have different interpretation and analysis.

Last edited by heyhey : 04-15-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:55 AM   #43
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by heyhey
just because taxes are collected via force doesn't mean it's illegitimate. People have consented, whether tacitly or affirmative, to surrender taxes for the benefit and protection of the state in which they live.

Instead of being so dogmatic and believing that you are plato trying to rescue us from the cave, consider the possibility that many of us have also thought and deliberated on the things you are talking about, spent time reading the primary intellectual sources on which the ideas are founded and just came to different conclusions. You always make it seem like everyone else ignorant when in the end we maybe as well read as you or even more but just have different interpretation and analysis.

I think the people who post in these threads are very smart. People in general, I feel are smart. I think it's more about honesty. Some smart people can be very dishonest about the effects of their intellectual conclusions.

The line that you just said, "Just because taxes are taken by force, doesn't mean they're illegitimate," is something I find many people will not say. They will not admit that taxes are taken by force, even after it's explained to them.

If you admit that taxation is legalized theft, backed up by the threat of violence.. but still support taxation? At least you're being honest.

I haven't argued that taxes are illegitimate. I argue that it's immoral.

I know I'm nothing special. Don't worry. Rescuing people.. lol.. I'm too lazy to do my laundry half the time. ;)
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:42 AM   #44
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

joe what, to you, would be a utopian society? What, specifically, would it look like if your ideals were put into practice?
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:43 AM   #45
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyhey
anarchism is certainly discussed so I don't get your point.

yes very few people actually want there to be no government. that's why we have government. you seem to be convinced that wanting a government is somehow misguided but that's just like your opinion man. and an opinion not admittedly shared by most so why would significant societal sources be dedicated to explore that view when it is unpopular?

obviously our views are culture bound but that is a imperfection of human existence and not of society. Any opinion or view can become oppressive when adopted widely.

Is your stance all forms of governments are illegitimate?

"Very few people want there to be no government, that's why we have government." I think this is false. I don't think most people can fathom a world without government, because it's such an unnatural thought. Imagine you were born into the European Middle Ages. Would it be fair to say, "very few people want there to be no King, that's why we have a King?" I don't think so. I think we all enter this world as babies, and we examine the world around us. We take in social cues. I don't think the idea of a stateless society crosses peoples minds, to be honest. It certainly never crossed my mind.

And so I agree with you that it would make no sense for society to devote time to it. It'd be like, a fish pondering life without water. It would take a truly special person to actually think of this stuff on his own, just randomly.

I don't think people are "misguided." I don't think there's really any guidance to begin with. I think we all are just floating around in the world we are born into. That's why social norms can be so hard to break. Look at Middle Eastern cultures and the way they treat woman. Why can't they realize that people don't deserve to be treated that way? The thought just never crosses their mind. And the people who suggest it are considered outside of the loop. Weird-o's. Maybe even blasphemers. Kind of like, how anarchists and libertarians are considered looney. Or kids who weren't "warriors" not being accepted in some Native American cultures.

But I also don't think what I'm saying is an "opinion." Some things I say are opinionated but the crux of the argument isn't. "Government is immoral." Since most people would agree that theft is immoral, and honest people can see that taxation is theft.. it's just a fact that government is immoral.

But I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-initiation of FORCE. The government is just one example of that. I think me stealing from you is just as immoral as the government stealing from you. Rape, forcing someone to have sex with you against their will, is immoral. And government, a group forcing you to give them money, is immoral.
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