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Old 04-16-2012, 03:18 AM   #46
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
joe what, to you, would be a utopian society? What, specifically, would it look like if your ideals were put into practice?

I don't think anything would be "ideal," not to nit pick your words. The problems of life wouldn't go away if government melted into history. Some people would still be poor, some people would still be criminals. So it's definitely nothing utopian at all.

But.. what would it be like? I have no idea. I spoke about this with JailBlazers a week or so ago.

You can't predict what people want or desire with 100% certainty. It's like asking an Indian wearing moccasins, what he thinks the next advance in footwear will be.

It's also important *how* we were to move away from government. Like, Somalia has no government right now. But not because the people there decided they were against the initiation of force. If the government were to just collapse, say for economic reasons, but peoples minds hadn't changed, that is no good.

Think about how we moved away from restrictive religious control over society/politics. A lot of it was just a change in mindset. The renaissance thinkers questioning if one mans religion should be forced on other people, through law and societal norms. There were probably other factors and I'm not saying I'm a scholar on that subject, but overall, the transition away from government would have to be like that. Peoples minds changing. People sort of just *moving on* from government. Realizing that it's silly and unnecessary to force their beliefs on other innocent people. Or the way we view blacks, or gays. Just everyone sort of realizing.. ya.. the old way of thinking was pretty stupid. But yet, those groups still face hate, and religion still is involved with our politics. Though it's not to the same extent. So this transition would be a slow, drawn out process. Likely over hundreds of years, human beings slowly realizing how silly and immoral a government is.

(Or maybe not. Like I said, you can't be 100% certain with anything.)

I think what you meant more was, how would the current roles of government be filled, if government didn't exist. That is a reallyyyyy long topic. If you're really interested, you should just google things. Like, "police in anarchist society." "School in anarchist society." But that will just be peoples suggestions or musings. Predicting what will win out on the free market is just not possible. That's why investing is so tricky. Who knew that people had a demand for a social networking site? Who knew that what facebook did would be better than myspace? Peoples preferences will determine the future, but people don't even know what they prefer until they have it.

But I think in general, the most important thing to keep in mind, is that if people want something done.. it will get done. Most people want security or police. So police will be there. Most people want national defense, so national defense will be there. Most people want schools for their kids. So schools will be there. Nobody wants pedophiles or rapists roaming the streets. So there will be protection and retribution against pedophiles and rapists. People are extremely creative and find ways to get things done when there is no force involved. Human beings are amazing thinkers. If there is a demand, there will be a supply.

But to say exactly how it will go? Impossible. Just like you and I don't know what the next great invention will be. Or the next evolution in television will be. We just have to let smart people invent things, or create products, and test them on the open market. May the best man win. : )

Last edited by joe : 04-16-2012 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:20 AM   #47
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Joe has too much faith that people and a free market will work everything out so that the world molds (or country) itself into the best possible shape it can be in. But the reality is that the reason we have mainstream media, mainstream political candidates, and mainstream beliefs, is because the majority don't feel any incentive to seek knowledge for themselves. Throughout history people have always looked for someone or some group to stand for them and tell them what's best.

The unfortunate truth is most of the country is either content with our ping pong game of bad politics from the left and right, or if they aren't content with it they don't feel any incentive to do anything about it (probably because they feel the masses won't support - see Ron Paul, the masses don't and won't support him).

This is the reason the occupy protest in the US look like homeless people squating, and every where else around the world things look like this:

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/teenage-riot-athens-1
http://www.vice.com/vice-news/teenag...evolutionaries

Or they look like what we saw in Egypt. I have no idea what the Americans think they're accomplishing.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:00 AM   #48
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneshot
Joe has too much faith that people and a free market will work everything out so that the world molds (or country) itself into the best possible shape it can be in. But the reality is that the reason we have mainstream media, mainstream political candidates, and mainstream beliefs, is because the majority don't feel any incentive to seek knowledge for themselves. Throughout history people have always looked for someone or some group to stand for them and tell them what's best.

The unfortunate truth is most of the country is either content with our ping pong game of bad politics from the left and right, or if they aren't content with it they don't feel any incentive to do anything about it (probably because they feel the masses won't support - see Ron Paul, the masses don't and won't support him).

This is the reason the occupy protest in the US look like homeless people squating, and every where else around the world things look like this:

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/teenage-riot-athens-1
http://www.vice.com/vice-news/teenag...evolutionaries

Or they look like what we saw in Egypt. I have no idea what the Americans think they're accomplishing.

I constantly hear this. People are dumb. People are stupid. But there are two huge objections to this, that people fail to mention.

1) Statists will often say that people are dumb, and thus need guidance from the state (not saying that that's what you're saying. It's just something I hear). But if people are so dumb, why should we trust a group of *people,* regular human beings just like you and me, with the power to use violent force? If the people are so dumb, won't the elected officials holding all the guns and making all the rules, also be dumb?

2) The most important one. Let's concede that people are dumb. People are stupid, can't think for themselves. Okay. Fine. But who is educating them? Who has been in charge of educating these people for over a hundred years, in America at least? It is the government. Government schools, government regulation over schools. Government schedules, government plans. So if people are dumb, that is a charge against the government. Not humanity itself.

I don't think people are dumb, at all. Some people are dumb. But in general, people are really smart if they're raised the right way. Throwing them in those prisons we call *school* and then complaining when they can't think for themselves... seems like an unfair accusations against the human race.

Last edited by joe : 04-16-2012 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:25 AM   #49
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

I'm not saying people are dumb. In fact, it's the opposite. People are smart enough to know just how much they don't want to do and are willing to trust someone else to do it for them. Some of these tasks include thinking unfortunately. Americans aren't stupid, just lazy and scared. Rightfully scared of the monster we've created in government, but unreasonably lazy about taking risk to tame this beast.

Around the world people are rising up because they don't have bread, affordable education, and a place to call home. The bread is the key though. One can be homeless and not able to obtain an education, but if you keep his stomach full, you can keep him at bay, keep him from going over the edge needed for the revolution to begin. The US government is smart enough to make sure people have, at the very least, some bread; make them feel like they have much to lose in order to gain an education and home to go along with that bread. So no one really rises up in this country, and it's because they're too lazy to take the risk.

In a country where people are not stupid, but merely too negligent or lazy to create for themselves, decide for themselves, and fight for themselves when they are clearly being taken advantage of, i can't bring myself to put trust in a free market filled with these individuals to keep the boat afloat. Politicians are corrupt because we allow them to be. If we say enough is enough, then that will be the end of it. But considering we have not even given any hints that we are on that course, i can't put any faith in people.

The most ironic part of this whole thing is we will fight our neighbors over scraps and crumbs and blame each other for the country's major issues and completely ignore the fact that it our neighbors along with ourselves that are behind enemy lines, together, and meant to be allies.

I imagine our government thinks like this: lets give them just enough ammunition to kill each other and hope they don't do enough thinking to see that together they have enough power to stop our madness.

Last edited by Loneshot : 04-16-2012 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:00 AM   #50
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneshot
I'm not saying people are dumb. In fact, it's the opposite. People are smart enough to know just how much they don't want to do and are willing to trust someone else to do it for them. Some of these tasks include thinking unfortunately. Americans aren't stupid, just lazy and scared. Rightfully scared of the monster we've created in government, but unreasonably lazy about taking risk to tame this beast.

Around the world people are rising up because they don't have bread, affordable education, and a place to call home. The bread is the key though. One can be homeless and not able to obtain an education, but if you keep his stomach full, you can keep him at bay, keep him from going over the edge needed for the revolution to begin. The US government is smart enough to make sure people have, at the very least, some bread; make them feel like they have much to lose in order to gain an education and home to go along with that bread. So no one really rises up in this country, and it's because they're too lazy to take the risk.

In a country where people are not stupid, but merely too negligent or lazy to create for themselves, decide for themselves, and fight for themselves when they are clearly being taken advantage of, i can't bring myself to put trust in a free market filled with these individuals to keep the boat afloat. Politicians are corrupt because we allow them to be. If we say enough is enough, then that will be the end of it. But considering we have not even given any hints that we are on that course, i can't put any faith in people.

The most ironic part of this whole thing is we will fight our neighbors over scraps and crumbs and blame each other for the country's major issues and completely ignore the fact that it our neighbors along with ourselves that are behind enemy lines, together, and meant to be allies.

I imagine our government thinks like this: lets give them just enough ammunition to kill each other and hope they don't do enough thinking to see that together they have enough power to stop our madness.

Hm, I quite enjoyed reading this. Very interesting arguments to chew over.

Well first, the same argument I used before works fine here. If people are too lazy to do their own research, or form an opinion, we again have to look at who's educating them. Which is the government itself. My personal biggest beef with the public school system is that it breeds a contempt of learning. It forces us to associate learning with PAIN. We have these non-sense subjects forced down our throat, in boring classrooms with outdated teaching methods. The teachers teach to the lowest common denominator, and kids have no choice over what they're learning. So can we really blame people for being lazy thinkers, given the way they're educated? If you actively TRIED to make kids HATE learning... you couldn't do better than the American public school system. I'm convinced.

(The very roots of the American public school system was the Prussian system. The origins of the Prussian system? It was a way for the King to indoctrinate the kids into loving the state and supporting the King. You couldn't make this stuff up.)

But again, let's assume that what you're saying is true. People are unmotivated to learn, and always would be, even absent government education. People are lazy, and would rather let their opinions be formed by somebody else.

If that is true, why would the elected officials be any different? If people are that unwilling to actually learn and formulate educated opinions, why would we trust those same people with guns, and the legal right to initiate force against the innocent? Why would we want an institution that can write laws, that everyone else has to follow? In that case, the politicians will write stupid, ill-formed laws, and the people will be too lazy to do anything about it.

Any criticism of human nature cannot be used as support for the state. As the state itself is made up of human beings, who must also be susceptible to those very flaws.

If you think most people are that dumb, you should prefer a society without a government. In that case, the dumb people wouldn't have a legal justification for bullying you around with their tax-funded police and prison system.

But yeah, people with food in their stomachs will not be motivated to change. Of course. But Americans will not have food in their stomachs sometime soon. It's just a matter of time before this economy comes crumbling down. So be careful what you wish for, my friend.

Last edited by joe : 04-16-2012 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:46 AM   #51
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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You could make that case for anything.

"I don't want to pay for the military."

"Too bad, do it or you're arrested."

"I don't want to pay for the police."

"Too bad, do it or you're arrested."

Although, I'm sure you actually believe we shouldn't pay for the military or the police. So this example is less for you and more for the people reading it who think, "Hey, that makes sense."

I never claimed I don't want to pay for national defense, or for police, or for fire men, or for business regulators. I have concluded that it's immoral to force someone to pay for these things against their will. You see the difference?

Just because I don't want to be forced to pay for the FDA, doesn't mean I don't want food and drug companies to be regulated. Just because I don't want to force you to pay for government police, doesn't mean I want innocent people to be murdered and raped in the streets. I simply prefer solutions to these problems that don't involve violent force.

Let's be specific with our language. You can't make that morality case for anything, you can only make it when force is being initiated against innocent people.

For instance..

"I don't want to pay for an Ipod." ... Okay, you don't have to.
"I don't want to pay for cigarettes." ... Okay, you don't have to.
"I don't want to pay for a new jacket." ... Okay, you don't have to.

Now, let's apply that example to government spending and taxation.

"I don't want to pay for the war in Iraq." ... Give us your money, or we will arrest you.

"I don't want to go jail for not paying taxes." ... Put on the handcuffs, or we will beat you, and put the handcuffs on you ourselves.

"I am going to defend myself against you if you step on my property. You are attempting to steal my money, and I do not want it stolen. Advance onto my property at your own risk." ... We can now legally kill you, just for trying to protect yourself, the same way you would against any other thief.

I know these hypothetical situations sound rather dramatic. I recognize that for you, you might simply say, "why not just pay your taxes and be done with it?" Well, If you don't think these realities are important enough to care about, nobody can force you to. But when you delve into the actual effects of what a government truly is all about, this is what you find. Brute force. Behind the ideology of the democrats, and the republicans, and even the small government libertarians, is an implicit belief that it's okay to kill people who disagree with you. Does that sound extreme? Yes. But it's also true. Because how else could the government operate, if it didn't have the ability to kill people who ultimately wouldn't hand over their money? Without that element of force, nobody would have to pay, and then the government is no longer a government. It's just another company offering services.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:55 AM   #52
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Joe....


So what's your alternative? Since you believe taxes are immoral (and even in economic theory, all taxes are damaging to society because they cause social deadweight welfare loss, have a look at it) then what form of government do you believe is right? What do you think is required for a country to grow? How will a country fund its institutions? Donations?
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:06 AM   #53
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brantonli
Joe....


So what's your alternative? Since you believe taxes are immoral (and even in economic theory, all taxes are damaging to society because they cause social deadweight welfare loss, have a look at it) then what form of government do you believe is right? What do you think is required for a country to grow? How will a country fund its institutions? Donations?

I really don't have any alternatives. I don't think I have the cure, just the most truthful diagnosis I can see. I've read a lot of good stuff about how X government function could be handled without a government. There's a lot of great stuff out there, from police to national defense to criminal justice. But do I think I know what the answers are? No. I don't believe anybody can say with certainty.

It's like, you see a parent beating up his kid. You tell him that beating his kid is not a good way to raise him. And then he asks.. so, what do you suggest? Well... it's hard to say. I just know that what you're currently doing is wrong. Ya know?

Could any of this stuff actually come to fruition? It would take a large majority of people to change the way they view the world. So, probably not. Definitely not anytime soon.

Last edited by joe : 04-16-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:09 AM   #54
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

What wonderful and insightful commentary, I mean I'm just so impressed. smh
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I really don't have any alternatives. I don't think I have the cure, just the most truthful diagnosis I can see. I've read a lot of good stuff about how X government function could be handled without a government. There's a lot of great stuff out there, from police to national defense to criminal justice. But do I think I know what the answers are? No. I don't believe anybody can say with certainty.

It's like, you see a parent beating up his kid. You tell him that beating his kid is not a good way to raise him. And then he asks.. so, what do you suggest? Well... it's hard to say. I just know that what you're currently doing is wrong. Ya know?

Could any of this stuff actually come to fruition? It would take a large majority of people to change the way they view the world. So, probably not. Definitely not anytime soon.

Fair enough, although I think even you may have to acknowledge that while taxes may be immoral (and economically inefficient) it's the best way to do things for now. Just like what Winston Churchill said about democracy, 'democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.' You definitely need something to fund the courts, police system, national defence, which are all for the public good that will not be provided by the private sector. You can even think of it like this, what would you (as the population) rather have, 1) pay absolutely no taxes whatsoever, or 2) have no form of government?

And funny you should mention that 'beating up kid' analogy, because that's basically how 90% of Asian kids are raised (I mean in China and HK and most other places). Harsh? Yes. Wrong? A lot of parents would disagree with you. But at most levels, it also worked.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:57 AM   #56
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I really don't have any alternatives. I don't think I have the cure, just the most truthful diagnosis I can see. I've read a lot of good stuff about how X government function could be handled without a government. There's a lot of great stuff out there, from police to national defense to criminal justice. But do I think I know what the answers are? No. I don't believe anybody can say with certainty.

It's like, you see a parent beating up his kid. You tell him that beating his kid is not a good way to raise him. And then he asks.. so, what do you suggest? Well... it's hard to say. I just know that what you're currently doing is wrong. Ya know?

Could any of this stuff actually come to fruition? It would take a large majority of people to change the way they view the world. So, probably not. Definitely not anytime soon.





Im not a fan of our current government... but government is not inherently evil.


you act like the idea of government is evil.. the idea of taxes isnt even evil.

if you wanna be alone go live in the woods like the unibomber.

you cannot live in a civilized society without having a system of order that is supposed to work for the good of everyone.

you sound like an anarchist these days.. you sound mad, but not sure what you are mad at...

government can be a positive thing if the majority of the people take responsibility for shaping it in their image..

we can be free, but you cannot do it by isolating yourself and thinking too hard on the individual terms... People are individuals and they need to be respected as such.... but people need to also learn how to work together and build a society that is positive for all of us... you cant do that by yourself...

We as Americans go overboard with the individualism stuff...
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

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This is still going on?


Yeah. You kinda knew that the movement would essentially end with winter, but it hasn't exactly taken back off now that spring is here.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:25 PM   #58
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

just like the inequality of wealth distribution among citizens in rich countries, there's a much wider scale of inequality going on in the world among different countries.

the top 20 countries (out of 200 countries in the world, give or take) own like 50% of the world's wealth.

but of course nobody cares about poor countries like... say, ghana or ethiopia or whatever. and if those poor countries whine about the "system" being unfair, the rich countries don't care.

however, when the citizens of the top rich countries feel their lives are deprived relative to the top 1%, they feel their voice must be heard because they think they live in an unfair world.

but see the hypocrisy here?

not saying what's right or wrong, but everyone is always just looking out for his or hers only. nobody gives a f--k about others.

the top 1% don't give a f--k about the bottom 99%.

and these same occupy folks of rich countries that own 50% of the world's wealth don't give a f--k about the bottom poor ass countries that average a dollar a day in wages.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
"Very few people want there to be no government, that's why we have government." I think this is false. I don't think most people can fathom a world without government, because it's such an unnatural thought. Imagine you were born into the European Middle Ages. Would it be fair to say, "very few people want there to be no King, that's why we have a King?" I don't think so. I think we all enter this world as babies, and we examine the world around us. We take in social cues. I don't think the idea of a stateless society crosses peoples minds, to be honest. It certainly never crossed my mind.

And so I agree with you that it would make no sense for society to devote time to it. It'd be like, a fish pondering life without water. It would take a truly special person to actually think of this stuff on his own, just randomly.

I don't think people are "misguided." I don't think there's really any guidance to begin with. I think we all are just floating around in the world we are born into. That's why social norms can be so hard to break. Look at Middle Eastern cultures and the way they treat woman. Why can't they realize that people don't deserve to be treated that way? The thought just never crosses their mind. And the people who suggest it are considered outside of the loop. Weird-o's. Maybe even blasphemers. Kind of like, how anarchists and libertarians are considered looney. Or kids who weren't "warriors" not being accepted in some Native American cultures.

But I also don't think what I'm saying is an "opinion." Some things I say are opinionated but the crux of the argument isn't. "Government is immoral." Since most people would agree that theft is immoral, and honest people can see that taxation is theft.. it's just a fact that government is immoral.

But I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-initiation of FORCE. The government is just one example of that. I think me stealing from you is just as immoral as the government stealing from you. Rape, forcing someone to have sex with you against their will, is immoral. And government, a group forcing you to give them money, is immoral.

"honest people can see that taxation is theft"
but that is indeed just an opinion.
many people see tax as justified and payments for goods received.

you know what's really ironic. i remember you railing against marx a while back. but those same things you raise up, the alienation of individuals by bourgeois institutions are exactly what Marx critiques in his works. So perhaps you shouldn't write him off. In fact most of what you raise can be traced back to Marx's attacks on liberal traditions, it was him who prominently denounced the delusion of freedom in society. He uses the same type of paradoxical rhetoric you employ as well. You should read marx, you are closer to him than the likes of Locke
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #60
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
it will get done. Most people want security or police. So police will be there. Most people want national defense, so national defense will be there. Most people want schools for their kids. So schools will be there. Nobody wants pedophiles or rapists roaming the streets. So there will be protection and retribution against pedophiles and rapists. People are extremely creative and find ways to get things done when there is no force involved. Human beings are amazing thinkers. If there is a demand, there will be a supply.


You forgot to make one distinction: If there's demand and people can AFFORD it, only then will there be supply.

If real life really were so easy, then heck, the whole of Africa wants education, food, security, where the hell is it then? Because they cannot pay for it.

Last edited by brantonli : 04-16-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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