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Old 04-16-2012, 01:15 PM   #61
Norcaliblunt
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

I feel Occupy Wall Street is definitely misguided with their general assembly consensus model, and the lack of concrete demands put forward, but I will give them credit for knowing where the power center really is, and for going after Wall Street.

While I like to entertain anarcho/libertarian ideas, libertarians always seem to ignore the money power by blaming government for everything. Here is a link to a great article I found on this subject....

http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/...e-money-power/

A quote in the comment section from a guy named Jimbo IMO hits the nail on the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Libertarians, at the end of their ideological progression, want the “state to wither away”. Strange, but I recall Marxism stating, among other things, the same thing, the goal of the “state to wither away”, after some period of “adjustment” (it never happens). Both are unrealistic. Both are utopian, ideology driven world-views.

Please see Frederick List and the American System (a 19th century U. S. political-economy theory) where the government did have a role, and, under that system import tariffs were a principle component. And, under the ‘American System’, first promoted by Alexander Hamilton (too bad, there is evidence he had links to European bankers) and continued through the 19th century by Lincoln, advocated by Heny Clay, and others, the United States became the strongest economy in the world.

This is a fact.

Libertarians believe in so-called “free trade”, but “free trade” promotes labor arbitrage, Arbitrage is the nearly simultaneous purchase of a good or asset in one market where the price is low, and sale of the same good or asset in another market where the price is higher. This creates an international ‘race to the bottom’ that the Money Power is uniquely situated to take full advantage of, thus, principally labor is devalued, causing purchasing power & demand to decrease.

Libertarians want government to be only a “referee”, neutral in terms of outcome, but a totally free market almost invariably has the strong (or those willing to cheat, steal, and be morally ruthless) prevailing over the weak. The Money Power is strong in relationship to individuals (the Money Power has demonstrated, time and again, it is willing to “cheat, steal, and be morally ruthless” to conquer & dominate those that are will not “cheat, steal, and be morally ruthless” because of moral & ethical constraints. In other words, Libertarians, being utopians, ignore human nature, and, thus, in their ideological system, those that are willing to “cheat, steal, and be morally ruthless” rise to the top of the economic heap and end up oppressing others.

Groups, by and large, will prevail over individuals, thus, the Money Power (a very powerful group) will prevail over individuals in the economic race.

Yes, in the Libertarian system, monopoly capitalism ends up being the final result or simple cartel capitalism, which isn’t much different from monopoly capitalism in terms of the welfare of the individual.

To preserve the Free Enterprise System, a competitive system of choice and individual initiative, you need government to be more than a neutral “referee”.


And in this video the honest libertarian Bill Still explains the role for government and why it is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VaSh8MMo34
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:07 PM   #62
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Stopped to actually talk to the uni's socialist club for once and asked them some questions, it was refreshing to speak to people passionate about a cause WHO ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT THE PHUCK THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT FOR ONCE. Every other activist or protester I have spoken to in my life has proven to be an ignorant moron.

They still said some things that don't make sense, idolized Lenin and then claimed the Red Terror was a complete fabrication in history books, which I thought was wierd, and also seemed to live in a dream world where society will just magically fall into place once the great socialist revolution occurs, and weren't able to answer where they envisioned themselves personally IF hypothetically the great revolution ever occurred, how how it would be fair some people have to work 16 hours a day in a coal mine and would get the same benefits as a guy writing poetry, but I learned some things atleast.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:43 PM   #63
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I heard it was still going pretty strong in New York, from my cousin who lives there. That's not exactly the greatest source but take it for what it's worth

I walk by Zucotti park at least once a week or so, and there's hardly nobody holding signs in that park anymore. That whole park used to be so packed last fall that on weekends you'd have students from diff colleges having to sit on the sidewalks across the street. Now it's like maybe 10 people max.

Unless the movement moved since I did hear Zucatti park was somehow able to ban the protestors from occupying it. But there isn't really another public place very close to Wall Street unless they started occupying bowling green.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:06 PM   #64
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
I never claimed I don't want to pay for national defense, or for police, or for fire men, or for business regulators. I have concluded that it's immoral to force someone to pay for these things against their will. You see the difference?

If it's immoral, what is a more moral system?

It's not like most citizens are unaware of taxes. They (mostly) agree to pay them. Yes, if they don't then they can be arrested in the same way that I can be arrested for going over the speed limit.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:23 AM   #65
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1



Im not a fan of our current government... but government is not inherently evil.


you act like the idea of government is evil.. the idea of taxes isnt even evil.

if you wanna be alone go live in the woods like the unibomber.

Stealing is immoral, correct? And what is stealing? Stealing is to take someones property without their consent. Taxation is even worse than stealing, because it's taking property without consent.. backed up by the threat of violence. Whether you think taxation/government is a positive or negative for society as a whole, is irrelevant when we talk about the morality.

Does that make government 'evil'? Maybe, but I won't open up that can of worms. I'll stick to arguing that it's immoral, which seems to be hard to refute. Unless you disagree that stealing is immoral.

I do not want to go live alone in the woods, and I assure you I'm nothing like the unibomber. ;)

Quote:
you cannot live in a civilized society without having a system of order that is supposed to work for the good of everyone.

government can be a positive thing if the majority of the people take responsibility for shaping it in their image..

So the unarmed people, are to somehow shape the government? May I ask you, which side has the military? Which side has the power to make laws? Which side has the legal right to steal? Which side do corporations want to bribe?

America is the greatest example that shaping the government is impossible. You live here, you should know that. We started with the Articles of Confederation. A few years later the Constitution was created to strengthen federal power. Immediately, the federal government tried to establish a central bank. Within decades, the federal government waged the most bloody war in our history, against individual states. Within 100 years, we had public school and an income tax. Today, just over 200 years later, we have the biggest empire in human history, an executive branch that can start offensive wars and legally assassinate citizens, a national debt that is impossible to pay off, and a social security bubble that will soon pop and leave thousands of people with no retirement funds.

How do you propose the people keep this monster in its cage? Because I don't see it. If the early American ideals weren't good enough.. what would be?

Quote:
we can be free, but you cannot do it by isolating yourself and thinking too hard on the individual terms... People are individuals and they need to be respected as such.... but people need to also learn how to work together and build a society that is positive for all of us... you cant do that by yourself...

We as Americans go overboard with the individualism stuff...

I don't see myself as an individualist at all. Social cooperation is one of the biggest keys to human prosperity, I'd say.

Cooperation is two or more parties, mutually agreeing to take some action. What, didn't 90+% of US citizens not want the bank bailouts? But they happened anyway. A large chunk of the country doesn't support the military budget being so high.. but it keeps getting bigger. Where is the cooperation in this system?

The government is anti-cooperation. Because cooperation ceases to exist when you add violent force to the equation. It's like a boyfriend threatening to beat up his girlfriend if she doesn't do the dishes. If she does the dishes, is that cooperation?
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:38 AM   #66
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyhey
"honest people can see that taxation is theft"
but that is indeed just an opinion.
many people see tax as justified and payments for goods received.

you know what's really ironic. i remember you railing against marx a while back. but those same things you raise up, the alienation of individuals by bourgeois institutions are exactly what Marx critiques in his works. So perhaps you shouldn't write him off. In fact most of what you raise can be traced back to Marx's attacks on liberal traditions, it was him who prominently denounced the delusion of freedom in society. He uses the same type of paradoxical rhetoric you employ as well. You should read marx, you are closer to him than the likes of Locke

Eh, honestly I didn't know enough about Marx to talk about him. That's something I learned really quick from the deservedly harsh replies to my posts on that subject. I'm pretty sure that someday I'll delve into Marx but it just doesn't interest me right now.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:50 AM   #67
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brantonli
Fair enough, although I think even you may have to acknowledge that while taxes may be immoral (and economically inefficient) it's the best way to do things for now. Just like what Winston Churchill said about democracy, 'democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.' You definitely need something to fund the courts, police system, national defence, which are all for the public good that will not be provided by the private sector. You can even think of it like this, what would you (as the population) rather have, 1) pay absolutely no taxes whatsoever, or 2) have no form of government?

And funny you should mention that 'beating up kid' analogy, because that's basically how 90% of Asian kids are raised (I mean in China and HK and most other places). Harsh? Yes. Wrong? A lot of parents would disagree with you. But at most levels, it also worked.

Don't fall into that trap. "If the government didn't do it, it wouldn't get done." The point of the police, and the national defense.. is not for the government to run the police, and the national defense. The point is to protect us, both from local criminals and foreign governments. In the absence of a government, the desire for protection would not disappear.

I've read some awesome suggestions for how both police and national defense could be done, sans government. I'm convinced that it's entirely possible and would be better. I'm not saying you'll come to the same conclusions I did, but definitely don't assume that just because the government wasn't there to do something, it wouldn't get done.

Your head (and mine) has been filled with bologna since day one. Every thing the government currently does, we're fed nonsense that voluntary people were impotent in accomplishing something, and so the government strutted in and saved the day. Food safety, work conditions, child labor, school, black employment. We are constantly made to believe, that without violent force, human beings just pick their noses and nothing gets done. People would be eating rotten meat without government, kids would be working 20 hour days in factories, the adults would have no vacation time or weekends. It's non-sense. All of it.

If the government controlled computers and the internet, we'd be told that without government intervention, only the rich would have internet, and the screens would give us seizures. Meanwhile, we'd all be surfing the web on dial up, thanking our wise public servants for "saving us" from the evils of the private sector. (Or the *voluntary sector*, to use the old trick of re-naming something whose brand has been stained. Though in this case, I think the new name is more descriptive than the old one. And as much as I'd like to say I thought of that, I stole the name change idea from Tom Woods ;)

Last edited by joe : 04-17-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:45 AM   #68
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

A free market solution to national defense will run into the free rider problem with the minority paying for the security enjoyed by the majority. Not sure I've seen a convincing solution to the problem.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:51 AM   #69
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Don't fall into that trap. "If the government didn't do it, it wouldn't get done." The point of the police, and the national defense.. is not for the government to run the police, and the national defense. The point is to protect us, both from local criminals and foreign governments. In the absence of a government, the desire for protection would not disappear.

I've read some awesome suggestions for how both police and national defense could be done, sans government. I'm convinced that it's entirely possible and would be better. I'm not saying you'll come to the same conclusions I did, but definitely don't assume that just because the government wasn't there to do something, it wouldn't get done.

Your head (and mine) has been filled with bologna since day one. Every thing the government currently does, we're fed nonsense that voluntary people were impotent in accomplishing something, and so the government strutted in and saved the day. Food safety, work conditions, child labor, school, black employment. We are constantly made to believe, that without violent force, human beings just pick their noses and nothing gets done. People would be eating rotten meat without government, kids would be working 20 hour days in factories, the adults would have no vacation time or weekends. It's non-sense. All of it.

Fine, then I completely and utterly disagree with you. Here's a funny video to begin with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLfgh...layer_embedded

I found this excerpt on an article arguing that 'To End war, Privatise National defence' which has a scene of a nation without national defence or a police force, which I imagine is something close to what you may imagine privatised police force would be:

Quote:
I’m going to ask you to do something very difficult. I want you to envision a United States without any kind of coercively-funded government. Imagine that all that exists is a land mass with private businesses and residences populating it. Peace and property rights are protected by individual armed citizens or by companies like ADT and Brinks Home Security. Private security guards are the only “police” in this nation.

Since there is no state, there are no drug laws or any other laws that violate property rights. The only exception being that you can’t use your property to violate someone else’s property or rights. So I couldn’t dump the toxic waste from my factory in such a way as to damage my neighbors’ property or I would be facing a lawsuit in a “loser pays” private court and possibly some not-so-friendly visits from a private security agency that was hired by my neighbor’s insurance company to halt the damage I’m doing to his property.

http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/...ional-defense/

If it isn't what you are thinking, then please disregard.

But firstly, what the fuck is this nonsense that somehow, each person can afford to hire private security contractors? And this?

Quote:
I would be facing a lawsuit in a “loser pays” private court and possibly some not-so-friendly visits from a private security agency that was hired by my neighbor’s insurance company to halt the damage I’m doing to his property.

so basically, what you get is a nation where the richest effectively have their own army and can do whatever they like, since the private court is determined by how many men I can hire?

the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of public goods is that each person consumes an EXACT AND EQUAL amount of said good! The police force is shared out equally between all people within that country, and the same goes for the defence force, if China attacks the US, the US Army can't go 'Ok right, you Californian citizens aren't allowed to be protected by the Army, but the Floridian ones are'.

Again, if this isn't that 'awesome suggestions' that you've read, then please do ignore and bring those up. Now, am I saying police forces around the world are perfect? Hell no. In fact, there are some cases where private police forces are shown to be be more efficient than public ones, and on the other hand, you have the moral quandary of whether crime should be up to the profit incentive, rather than stopping it at all costs. But it's also important to note that when private police forces are used, guess who's employing them? It's still usually the local government. To replace them public police force entirely? I think that's ludicrous.

also please stop thinking I'm American or something, I grew up in one of the most laissez-faire places in the world- Hong Kong.

Last edited by brantonli : 04-17-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:06 AM   #70
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
Stealing is immoral, correct? And what is stealing? Stealing is to take someones property without their consent. Taxation is even worse than stealing, because it's taking property without consent.. backed up by the threat of violence. Whether you think taxation/government is a positive or negative for society as a whole, is irrelevant when we talk about the morality.

all taxation is not necessarily stealing

and morality is subjective....

c'mon now...

if you never use any roads or any of the services?

if you live outside the protection of the police and the fire dept?

Your kid gets home schooled by you with no help?

basically if you are f*ckin hermit? then maybe you can spout off about stealing and some misguided sense of morality..

but otherwise, its just a bunch of nonsense



Quote:
Does that make government 'evil'? Maybe, but I won't open up that can of worms.

the government is no more evil than a chair or napkin is 'evil'. Its a tool.

Its only as good or bad as the people running it.

if the public falls asleep and lets liars and criminals at the controls of our government? then it will reflect those people.

If we let the tools become twisted and rigged for the benefit of a few greedy people? then the government will reflect that

Also if we (as a society) take an interest in our government and take responsibility for you we let into office? you wont have people at the controls anymore.

Quote:
I'll stick to arguing that it's immoral, which seems to be hard to refute. Unless you disagree that stealing is immoral.

equating taxes & stealing is an argument based on a false premise joe..

to be fair...Im against various forms of taxes as they currently exist. I think they are used to rip off the public and pay the FED for the fiat money they print without our permission.

that doesnt mean I think the idea of taxes as a whole is a bankrupt idea. Some forms of taxation can be very fair.


[quote]I do not want to go live alone in the woods, and I assure you I'm nothing like the unibomber. ;)[/qoute]



Quote:
So the unarmed people, are to somehow shape the government? May I ask you, which side has the military? Which side has the power to make laws? Which side has the legal right to steal? Which side do corporations want to bribe?

'Arms' arent the only valuable weapon known to man. If people understood where their power comes from? they would call on it more and work harder to strengthen it.

the weapon of the general public is "COOPERATION", EDUCATION

if people smartened up and stopped playing the game? the people who have all the money and own all the guns would have to listen.

people dont realize that they have been turned from human beings to simple 'resources' in the eyes of many elite 1% types... resources (ike cattle, chicken and turkeys, other foods and products) are simply resources to be used up...

when we start acting like humans again and impress our will on the government? we will stop being treated like resources to be raided for our money and property in any crisis.

The people with the least voice seem to pay the heaviest price.. ever notice that?

like the guy who misses the board meeting... He gets appointed all the sh*t work because he wasnt present at the board meeting to object on his own behalf.




Quote:
America is the greatest example that shaping the government is impossible. You live here, you should know that. We started with the Articles of Confederation. A few years later the Constitution was created to strengthen federal power. Immediately, the federal government tried to establish a central bank. Within decades, the federal government waged the most bloody war in our history, against individual states. Within 100 years, we had public school and an income tax. Today, just over 200 years later, we have the biggest empire in human history, an executive branch that can start offensive wars and legally assassinate citizens, a national debt that is impossible to pay off, and a social security bubble that will soon pop and leave thousands of people with no retirement funds.

How do you propose the people keep this monster in its cage? Because I don't see it. If the early American ideals weren't good enough.. what would be?

the people stand up to the monster by REFUSING TO COOPERATE ANY LONGER.

you dont need guns and a military for that.... All you need is courage.

Thats part of the reason I am dissappointed in your assessment of Occupy Wall Street...

Those are the people who are refusing to cooperate.. They keep pointing the finger at the true criminals while the true criminals trying to point the finger at anyone but themselves...


the tea party has value also when they stick to their financial gripes and work in that arena...

these movements need to work together to rid the government of the criminals and the controls they have created to rig the game in their favor.

the tea party may have some racist elements in it (obviously I loathe that sh*t)... But they also have some very valid points when it comes to their arguments on spending and sound monetary systems



I don't see myself as an individualist at all. Social cooperation is one of the biggest keys to human prosperity, I'd say.

Quote:
Cooperation is two or more parties, mutually agreeing to take some action. What, didn't 90+% of US citizens not want the bank bailouts? But they happened anyway. A large chunk of the country doesn't support the military budget being so high.. but it keeps getting bigger. Where is the cooperation in this system?

The government is anti-cooperation. Because cooperation ceases to exist when you add violent force to the equation. It's like a boyfriend threatening to beat up his girlfriend if she doesn't do the dishes. If she does the dishes, is that cooperation?


you are looking at the government as it currently exist and acting as if that will always be the nature of any government no matter what...

you know we have thrown out the Central banks before.... it can be done again.

it looks bleak because the public has been asleep since the the late 60s. But it isnt hopeless.

If people want America, they have to fight (and even be willing to die) for it.

the corporations may have bought politicians but they still need us to make this place work and if we stick together? it wont matter if they have guns and military and the bought politicians because they still cannot overcome all of us.

Last edited by Rasheed1 : 04-17-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:07 PM   #71
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
A free market solution to national defense will run into the free rider problem with the minority paying for the security enjoyed by the majority. Not sure I've seen a convincing solution to the problem.

Not only that:

But Joe everything that you rail against would end up happening anyway. I mean I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but taxation would happen without a government too, so long as you expect to continue to live in an advanced society like we do now (and not revert to a rural village life).

There are necessities to life as we know it now, and while it may start out as a more free open market, over time it will consolidate into fewer and fewer sources. Specialization (which again allows us to live as we do now) means we'd have to pay for services no matter what. So who'd you have to pay?

Lets say you need protection. So you have to pay for police services. If you don't pay there is a threat of violence because you have no protection. So you pay a privatized security force. Well... it's pretty much a tax. Now you would think that having it privatized may create competition, but since security is something that takes a large conglomerate of cooperating people, it would actually make more sense if it was monopolized, at least at a county level.

Not only that but NOT paying would actually cause crime rates to increase. So as a precaution, and for the betterment of the society as a whole the payment could very well become mandatory.

The same would be true for many other basic services. Whether paying a corporation or the government it will gravitate towards a model like the one we now practice. This makes it easier, and betters the society as a whole. Now could there be more accountability in the allocation of funds? Sure I think we'd all be for that.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:54 PM   #72
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Yeah, an anarchist society would eventually evolve into a governed society. I think government is just the way that advanced societies organize themselves and there is no avoiding it.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:59 PM   #73
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

@ taxation being worse than stealing. If there were no government, then those rich people wouldn't have a country to make their money. They wouldn't have roads to move their goods around to sell to other people. They wouldn't have a national defense that keeps foreigners out from looting the country.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:02 PM   #74
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
@ taxation being worse than stealing. If there were no government, then those rich people wouldn't have a country to make their money. They wouldn't have roads to move their goods around to sell to other people. They wouldn't have a national defense that keeps foreigners out from looting the country.

And property rights wouldn't exist or be enforced lol
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:57 PM   #75
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Default Re: Aren't the "Occupy" people basically just giant IRS bitches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
A free market solution to national defense will run into the free rider problem with the minority paying for the security enjoyed by the majority. Not sure I've seen a convincing solution to the problem.

I have. The free rider problem is not unsolvable by any means. You just need to have an imagination.

How do we get people to leave tips for waiters and waitresses? Is there a law that requires it? No. We do it through social pressure. Because if you don't tip, people consider you a cheapwad. Rude. And you feel shameful when you return to that restaurant.

In the same way, social pressure could be used to get people to pay up for defense.

Those who DON'T pay, will be considered cheapwads. Free riders. Socially unacceptable. The defense companies can take advantage of that. In an almost infinite number of ways. Just use your imagination.

-Have an online list of every local citizen who has not paid say, 100 bucks towards defense in a given year.
-Run commercials making free riders look like outcasts.
-Give out bumper stickers/shirts/hats to those who donate.Make people proud to have donated to their areas defense!
-Give special perks to those who donate. Say, donate 200 dollars a year and we'll install an alarm system in your home.

Local businesses could participate. Say you buy a bunch of clothes from JC Penny's. You get to the front desk, and the clerk asks if you'd like to donate 5 bucks to defense. In return, the defense companies sell memorabilia to JC Penny for cheap. Or installs alarm systems in their store.

And this is just one suggestion I heard from one guy. Who knows what entrepreneurs on the free market would think of? There are an infinite number of ways to solve the free rider problem. It wouldn't be much of a problem at all, in my estimation.

Last edited by joe : 04-17-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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