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Old 04-24-2012, 05:06 PM   #1
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Default Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Apparently this guy thinks so....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harison
Overall KG did better in Playoffs than RS

I absolutely would love to hear the reasoning behind how KG was a better playoff performer if anyone actually thinks this. There is a reason why KG isn't ranked as high as Duncan or why the Duncan-KG debate isn't even close and it is because Duncan had the extra gear for the post-season while KG didn't. Duncan was a great playoff performer whereas KG was only a good playoff performer at best.

I'll let you guys decide though but here is KG's career regular season stats and playoff stats

RS - 19.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.3 spg, 2.3 topg, 49.9% FG, 79% FT, 54.9% TS, 23.3 PER

PS - 19.6 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.4 bpg, 1.3 spg, 2.5 topg, 47.2% FG, 78.2% FT, 51.9% TS, 21.7 PER

I say he was a much better regular season performer and I didn't need the stats to even back me up but if someone wanted to see them there they are above.

Here is KG's regular season stats and playoff stats during his prime though ('98-'08)

RS - 22.0 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.7 topg, 49.4% FG, 78.8% FT, 55% TS, 25.5 PER

PS - 22.3 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg, 46.9% FG, 77.4% FT, 52.3% TS, 23.9 PER

Keep in mind that KG missed the post-season for 3 straight seasons from '04 to '07.

Last edited by StateOfMind12 : 04-24-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Don't forget people keyed on him a lot more in the playoffs in his prime. There wasn't much other talent on his 'Sota teams for him to defer to.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Apparently this guy thinks so....



I absolutely would love to hear the reasoning behind how KG was a better playoff performer if anyone actually thinks this. There is a reason why KG isn't ranked as high as Duncan or why the Duncan-KG debate isn't even close and it is because Duncan had the extra gear for the post-season while KG didn't. Duncan was a great playoff performer whereas KG was only a good playoff performer at best.

I'll let you guys decide though but here is KG's career regular season stats and playoff stats

RS - 19.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.3 spg, 2.3 topg, 49.9% FG, 79% FT, 54.9% TS, 23.3 PER

PS - 19.6 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.4 bpg, 1.3 spg, 2.5 topg, 47.2% FG, 78.2% FT, 51.9% TS, 21.7 PER

I say he was a much better regular season performer and I didn't need the stats to even back me up but if someone wanted to see them there they are above.

Here is KG's regular season stats and playoff stats during his prime though ('98-'08)

RS - 22.0 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.7 topg, 49.4% FG, 78.8% FT, 55% TS, 25.5 PER

PS - 22.3 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg, 46.9% FG, 77.4% FT, 52.3% TS, 23.9 PER

Keep in mind that KG missed the post-season for 3 straight seasons from '04 to '07.
Your pointing to the fact that KG missed out on 3 playoffs during his prime (when his stats would have been at their highest) does your argument no favours.

Also your arbitrary cutoff points (deliberately?) excludes the 96-97 season where his playoffs were better than his regular season. And of course the career stats make him look worse in the playoffs because they are heavily weighted towards his post-prime Boston days (because they had longer playoff runs).

Add to this the fact that players playing at the same level will see a reduction in stats because of the higher level of competition and I'd say that there's certainly a case that he played better in the playoffs.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Your pointing to the fact that KG missed out on 3 playoffs during his prime (when his stats would have been at their highest) does your argument no favours.
It means the sample size is smaller but I'm not trying to make a case. I was just showing his career stats and his prime stats, nothing more.

Quote:
Also your arbitrary cutoff points (deliberately?) excludes the 96-97 season where his playoffs were better than his regular season. And of course the career stats make him look worse in the playoffs because they are heavily weighted towards his post-prime Boston days (because they had longer playoff runs).
It's a cut off because his prime started in the '98-'99 season. I didn't just exclude his '96-'97 season either, I also excluded his '97-'98 season because he wasn't in his prime then. If I were to add those two seasons though it would hurt his regular season stats because his stats were not quite good in '96-'98 at least good for an all-time great.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

I would take KG any day of the week over Yao.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Let's take a quick look other all-time greats of the 2000s best playoff series;

Shaq;
All finals performances during threepeat alone would be enough.

Duncan;
28/17/6/3 on .569 fg against the Mavs in 2003.
24/17/5/5 on .495 fg against the Nets in 2003.
32/12/4/3 on .556 fg against the Mavs in 2006.
26/11/6/6 on .500 fg against the Sonics in 2002.

Kobe;
34/7/8/1 on .521 fg against the Suns in 2010.
35/9/4/1 on .473 fg against the Kings in 2001.
33/7/7/2 on .514 fg against the Spurs in 2001.
33/7/7/1 on .491 fg against the Jazz in 2008.

Nowitzki;
33/16/1/3 on .526 fg against the Wolves in 2002. (vs. KG...)
27/13/3/1 on .527 fg against the Spurs in 2006.
34/12/4/1 on .534 fg against the Nuggets in 2009.


How many times did KG have a playoff series like that? Or did he even have it?
26/15/7/2 on .454 fg against the Nuggets in 2004. I guess it's the only one.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
Let's take a quick look other all-time greats of the 2000s best playoff series;

Shaq;
All finals performances during threepeat alone would be enough.

Duncan;
28/17/6/3 on .569 fg against the Mavs in 2003.
24/17/5/5 on .495 fg against the Nets in 2003.
32/12/4/3 on .556 fg against the Mavs in 2006.
26/11/6/6 on .500 fg against the Sonics in 2002.

Kobe;
34/7/8/1 on .521 fg against the Suns in 2010.
35/9/4/1 on .473 fg against the Kings in 2001.
33/7/7/2 on .514 fg against the Spurs in 2001.
33/7/7/1 on .491 fg against the Jazz in 2008.

Nowitzki;
33/16/1/3 on .526 fg against the Wolves in 2002. (vs. KG...)
27/13/3/1 on .527 fg against the Spurs in 2006.
34/12/4/1 on .534 fg against the Nuggets in 2009.


How many times did KG have a playoff series like that? Or did he even have it?
26/15/7/2 on .454 fg against the Nuggets in 2004. I guess it's the only one.
24/18.7/5 on .429 vs Dallas in 2002?
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
24/18.7/5 on .429 vs Dallas in 2002?
Getting destroyed by Nowitzki? I do not think so.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
24/18.7/5 on .429 vs Dallas in 2002?
All the series he listed the player shot 47% or higher while KG shot 42% in that series. KG's offensive numbers always took a huge dip in the post-season especially his efficiency. It is kind of weird too because KG does have a good arsenal of moves in his scoring so it's not like he was exposed but regardless his scoring always went down in the post-season.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
Getting destroyed by Nowitzki? I do not think so.
Was posting just based on numbers, because I didn't see all the series, and because the series were represented as numbers. But looking at it Dirk did go off in that series (partially because of getting to the line a lot). I would say that it's much harder to make a big difference as an individual defensively (with bad teammates) than offensively (with bad teammates).
Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
All the series he listed the player shot 47% or higher while KG shot 42% in that series. KG's offensive numbers always took a huge dip in the post-season especially his efficiency. It is kind of weird too because KG does have a good arsenal of moves in his scoring so it's not like he was exposed but regardless his scoring always went down in the post-season.
1) .429 rounded is 43% not 42%
2) Odinn's post included a KG series with 45%. 2.5% over a single series isn't a huge difference.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
Let's take a quick look other all-time greats of the 2000s best playoff series;

Shaq;
All finals performances during threepeat alone would be enough.

Duncan;
28/17/6/3 on .569 fg against the Mavs in 2003.
24/17/5/5 on .495 fg against the Nets in 2003.
32/12/4/3 on .556 fg against the Mavs in 2006.
26/11/6/6 on .500 fg against the Sonics in 2002.

Kobe;
34/7/8/1 on .521 fg against the Suns in 2010.
35/9/4/1 on .473 fg against the Kings in 2001.
33/7/7/2 on .514 fg against the Spurs in 2001.
33/7/7/1 on .491 fg against the Jazz in 2008.

Nowitzki;
33/16/1/3 on .526 fg against the Wolves in 2002. (vs. KG...)
27/13/3/1 on .527 fg against the Spurs in 2006.
34/12/4/1 on .534 fg against the Nuggets in 2009.


How many times did KG have a playoff series like that? Or did he even have it?
26/15/7/2 on .454 fg against the Nuggets in 2004. I guess it's the only one.
Also those guys played in so many more series during their primes that if you select the best single series they've had of course they will have the better samples. But across the totality of the playoffs Garnett played well.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Your pointing to the fact that KG missed out on 3 playoffs during his prime (when his stats would have been at their highest) does your argument no favours.

Also your arbitrary cutoff points (deliberately?) excludes the 96-97 season where his playoffs were better than his regular season. And of course the career stats make him look worse in the playoffs because they are heavily weighted towards his post-prime Boston days (because they had longer playoff runs).

Add to this the fact that players playing at the same level will see a reduction in stats because of the higher level of competition and I'd say that there's certainly a case that he played better in the playoffs.

Looking at the peak stats and taking this into account I don't think its unreasonable to say Garnett was at least as good as he was in the regular season as in the playoffs especially if you account for the fact that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushxx
... people keyed on him a lot more in the playoffs in his prime. There wasn't much other talent on his 'Sota teams for him to defer to.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Was posting just based on numbers, because I didn't see all the series, and because the series were represented as numbers. But looking at it Dirk did go off in that series (partially because of getting to the line a lot). I would say that it's much harder to make a big difference as an individual defensively (with bad teammates) than offensively (with bad teammates).

1) .429 rounded is 43% not 42%
2) Odinn's post included a KG series with 45%. 2.5% over a single series isn't a huge difference.
1. 43% is still not 45% so you are whining over something pointless.

2. That's his point. KG only had one great productive playoff series where he shot 45%+ while those other guys he listed (Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, etc.) have plenty of great playoff series with 45%+ shooting along with impacting the game in other ways.
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odinn
Getting destroyed by Nowitzki? I do not think so.
You don't know much about that series besides the stats, do you?

Watch the game highlights here from game two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1...eature=related

Watch Dirk's highlights here from game three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHdTYU-lGpw

How many points does he score on KG in the two videos combined? 10, maybe 12? There's a couple of drives and stepback jumpers against him but safe to say, it's not much.

There are a good number of points Dirk gets from spotting up in transition or after being set up by the guards after their dribble penetration. He also scores on mismatches against smaller guards like Billups and Peeler. The rest of them are by drawing fouls or scoring one on one against guys like Sam Mitchell, Gary Trent, Rasho and Joe Smith. There's a couple of putbacks in there too.

Throughout the series, Wolves played a lot of match up zone (1-2-2 which is mentioned in the first video) with KG near the top of the key trying to help out and disrupt the offense meaning that KG didn't have a specific assignment. There's a lot of defensive breakdowns on Minny's behalf as well since Mavs iso'd a lot and had a lot of offensive firepower so Dirk got a lot of pts in by just spotting up which is a good thing since it shows he can space the floor but he's not scoring on KG in these situations. You can see Saunders (Minny's coach) comment on this too:

Quote:
"The thing that makes them difficult is not only do they have
the ability to shoot from the perimeter, but almost every one of
their guys has the ability to beat you off the dribble,"
Minnesota coach Flip Saunders said. "Whether it's Nash, whether
it's Van Exel, whether it's Finley, whether it's Nowitzki
matched up with a 4 (power forward), they've got four guys they
can put out on the floor that can create off the dribble.

"They put so much pressure on you to guard them on the
three-point line, but if you get too close, they beat you off
the dribble. They either get to the basket or they draw help and
hit one of their other shooters."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102114317.htm

Game report from game one stating how Sam Mitchell starts off guarding Dirk:
Quote:
"We've been doing a great job lately of getting to the foul
line, so I just tried to drive a little more and post up a
little more and it worked out well for me tonight," Nowitzki
said. "They started with a smaller guy on me (Sam Mitchell) and
I just tried to drive a little more with the smaller guy on me.
I think it worked out pretty well."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102111318.htm

Perfect example why head to head numbers can give a skewed conclusion of a match up. Also, Dirk didn't guard KG a lot either in case anyone was wondering. That job primarily went to Najera with occasional help from LaFrentz and Dirk as well.

Quote:
Minneapolis Star-Tribune - Apr 24, 2002
The Mavericks will continue to use Eduardo Najera to defend Garnett, based on Najera's physical, pestering style. Though he gives up 4 inches in the matchup, Najera is the sort of strong, aggressive player who distracts Garnett.
Quote:
Dallas Morning News - Apr 22, 2002
But LaFrentz still registered five blocks against the intimidating Timberwolves frontline, and Najera's defense against Kevin Garnett grew steadier as the game wore on.
Quote:
Najera helped hold Garnett without a basket over the final 10 minutes.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102118319.htm
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NugzHeat3
You don't know much about that series besides the stats, do you?

Watch the game highlights here from game two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1...eature=related

Watch Dirk's highlights here from game three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHdTYU-lGpw

How many points does he score on KG in the two videos combined? 10, maybe 12? There's a couple of drives and stepback jumpers against him but safe to say, it's not much.

There are a good number of points Dirk gets from spotting up in transition or after being set up by the guards after their dribble penetration. He also scores on mismatches against smaller guards like Billups and Peeler. The rest of them are by drawing fouls or scoring one on one against guys like Sam Mitchell, Gary Trent, Rasho and Joe Smith. There's a couple of putbacks in there too.

Throughout the series, Wolves played a lot of match up zone (1-2-2 which is mentioned in the first video) with KG near the top of the key trying to help out and disrupt the offense meaning that KG didn't have a specific assignment. There's a lot of defensive breakdowns on Minny's behalf as well since Mavs iso'd a lot and had a lot of offensive firepower so Dirk got a lot of pts in by just spotting up which is a good thing since it shows he can space the floor but he's not scoring on KG in these situations. You can see Saunders (Minny's coach) comment on this too:


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102114317.htm

Game report from game one stating how Sam Mitchell starts off guarding Dirk:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102111318.htm

Perfect example why head to head numbers can give a skewed conclusion of a match up. Also, Dirk didn't guard KG a lot either in case anyone was wondering. That job primarily went to Najera with occasional help from LaFrentz and Dirk as well.




http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102118319.htm


I wouldn't use the line:

"Najera helped hold KG without a basket the final 10 minutes"

To support KG as a great playoff performer....
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