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Old 04-24-2012, 07:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
1. 43% is still not 45% so you are whining over something pointless.

2. That's his point. KG only had one great productive playoff series where he shot 45%+ while those other guys he listed (Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, etc.) have plenty of great playoff series with 45%+ shooting along with impacting the game in other ways.
Why do you only address one point when I'm making multiple points.

2.5% is a big deal over a season. But over a series it isn't. It's one shot. The numbers for his 2002 series are quite similar to those in his Denver 04 series. That's all I said.

His general point was indeed that those players had more impressive single series. I addressed that later suggesting that they had more series in their prime to pick and choose from (because they didn't play on an awful Minnesota team). When you don't pick and choose series his prime stats stand up to comparisons with most players especially when you take into account elite defense.

If you wish to address the central tennant of my argument (that, accounting for tougher competition in the playoffs, and additional defensive focus on Garnett as the T'Wolves best player, his postseason prime stats are at least as good as his regular season ones) feel free to. But you haven't so far.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I wouldn't use the line:

"Najera helped hold KG without a basket the final 10 minutes"

To support KG as a great playoff performer....
Except that I didn't.

I wasn't using the line to prove anything except that Najera was guarding KG and not Dirk.

That was the whole point of the post because I've seen way too many people jump to conclusions strictly based on head to head numbers and not just this particular series but literally every single one of them.

Head to head numbers are essentially worthless to me without knowing much about the series or best put, watching them.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

KG just isn't that good a scorer. I don't know why people have been denying this very obvious fact for 10+ years. I'm not even being a hater because I genuinely believe KG was/is a winner, but he's plain not that talented at scoring. and when I say "not that talented" I mean that he's clearly not in the upper echelon of NBA scorers. you can't even begin to compare him to shaq, kobe, lebron, wade, and dirk. I don't even think you can compare him to Pierce and Melo as a scorer.

his playoff high for his whole career is 35 points. he's broken 30 points in the playoffs 9 times in his entire career.

his whole post game is just kind of messed up. he posts up really far from the basket for a guy who is 6'11/7 feet. he doesn't have any strong moves. he settles for that fade-away jumper too often. averaging points in the high teens, low twenties with sub 0.55% TS% is plain not that great.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
2.5% is a big deal over a season. But over a series it isn't. It's one shot. The numbers for his 2002 series are quite similar to those in his Denver 04 series. That's all I said.
No, 2.5% difference is not one shot in a series, more like in one game.

Next

Quote:
His general point was indeed that those players had more impressive single series. I addressed that later suggesting that they had more series in their prime to pick and choose from (because they didn't play on an awful Minnesota team). When you don't pick and choose series his prime stats stand up to comparisons with most players especially when you take into account elite defense.
He tried to pick one and he only found one that was really worth mentioning. KG just wasn't a great playoff performer. If we were to average their career playoff performances or prime playoff performances, they would destroy KG's too so what exactly is your point?

Quote:
If you wish to address the central tennant of my argument (that, accounting for tougher competition in the playoffs, and additional defensive focus on Garnett as the T'Wolves best player, his postseason prime stats are at least as good as his regular season ones) feel free to. But you haven't so far.
And what exactly have you done? Oh yeah, nothing.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

dirk was shutdown by matt barnes in what would have cemented dirks greatness if only they beat GSTATE in their homecourt.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by knickswin
KG just isn't that good a scorer. I don't know why people have been denying this very obvious fact for 10+ years. I'm not even being a hater because I genuinely believe KG was/is a winner, but he's plain not that talented at scoring. and when I say "not that talented" I mean that he's clearly not in the upper echelon of NBA scorers. you can't even begin to compare him to shaq, kobe, lebron, wade, and dirk. I don't even think you can compare him to Pierce and Melo as a scorer.

his playoff high for his whole career is 35 points. he's broken 30 points in the playoffs 9 times in his entire career.

his whole post game is just kind of messed up. he posts up really far from the basket for a guy who is 6'11/7 feet. he doesn't have any strong moves. he settles for that fade-away jumper too often. averaging points in the high teens, low twenties with sub 0.55% TS% is plain not that great.



being a great playoff performer is just based on scoring?

DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
No, 2.5% difference is not one shot in a series, more like in one game.

Next


He tried to pick one and he only found one that was really worth mentioning. KG just wasn't a great playoff performer. If we were to average their career playoff performances or prime playoff performances, they would destroy KG's too so what exactly is your point?


And what exactly have you done? Oh yeah, nothing.
'02 was a 3 game series over which KG took 58 shots.
(58/100= 0.58 0.58x2.5=1.45)
Over that series Dirk would have had to make 1.45 more shots (or as I rounded it 1) to take his percentage up 2.5% and above that for his Denver series.

If you think that they would "destoy" KG's prime performances please feel free to post the numbers then account for the disparity of impact on defense between Garnett (a huge plus) versus Kobe (a small plus, guards don't have as big an impact on D, and in his offensive prime his focus on D slipped) and Dirk (a sometimes negative sometimes nuetral influence on D). As I've said picking and choosing series certainly isn't representative.

And what exactly have I done. Well I pointed out the numbers WHICH YOU GAVE as his prime, were not substantially below his regular season numbers and accounting for the tougher competition and increased defensive attention this suggests Garnett was as strong in the playoffs as he was otherwise, a point which you STILL have yet to address.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Well I pointed out the numbers WHICH YOU GAVE as his prime, were not substantially below his regular season numbers and accounting for the tougher competition and increased defensive attention this suggests Garnett was as strong in the playoffs as he was otherwise, a point which you STILL have yet to address.
The competition is tougher and star players have an increase in defensive attention in the playoffs, I already know this so what is your point? Kevin Garnett's numbers dipped in those situations which goes to show you he wasn't a better playoff performer than he was a regular season performer.

You act as if his numbers should dip. They probably should for 2nd/3rd/etc. option players, but not 1st option players and certainly not all-time greats.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
The competition is tougher and star players have an increase in defensive attention in the playoffs, I already know this so what is your point? Kevin Garnett's numbers dipped in those situations which goes to show you he wasn't a better playoff performer than he was a regular season performer.

You act as if his numbers should dip. They probably should for 2nd/3rd/etc. option players, but not 1st option players and certainly not all-time greats.
MJ Regular season PER (not counting the wizards, partially because it was a mere postscript to his career and he wasn't as good as he had been and partly because his teams didn't make the playoff that year) 29.1
Playoffs PER 28.6
And MJ was notoriously clutch.
Kobe prime (from 99-00 on) reg season PER 24.2
(Playoff PER 99-00 on) playoff PER 22.9
And this does the favour of junking his shocking first 2 years of playoff performances.

Virtually every performer dips in the playoff. Statistically only a couple of recent players pop into mind Duncan (his is slightly helped by his deepest playoff runs generally falling in his 02-07 prime) and Olajuwon (remarkable step up in the playoffs). Historically Russell too. If there are many others feel free to show them, but so far as I'm aware very few players do better statistically in the playoffs. A falloff of 1.6 in PER (over a fair sample) does not seem excessively poor. It doesn't seem super clutch either, it falls within what you would typically expect during the playoffs. It certainly doesn't tally with your claim in the thread this thread broke off from that
Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
And what is your opinion supported by? I'm not going to pull up numbers because I already know KG's numbers got much worse in the post-season than in the regular season.

Next time before making any claims, give me some evidence, and then ask more knowledgeable posters, because your ignorance is staggering.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
MJ Regular season PER (not counting the wizards, partially because it was a mere postscript to his career and he wasn't as good as he had been and partly because his teams didn't make the playoff that year) 29.1
Playoffs PER 28.6
And MJ was notoriously clutch.
Kobe prime (from 99-00 on) reg season PER 24.2
(Playoff PER 99-00 on) playoff PER 22.9
And this does the favour of junking his shocking first 2 years of playoff performances.

Virtually every performer dips in the playoff. Statistically only a couple of recent players pop into mind Duncan (his is slightly helped by his deepest playoff runs generally falling in his 02-07 prime) and Olajuwon (remarkable step up in the playoffs). Historically Russell too. If there are many others feel free to show them, but so far as I'm aware very few players do better statistically in the playoffs. A falloff of 1.6 in PER (over a fair sample) does not seem excessively poor. It doesn't seem super clutch either, it falls within what you would typically expect during the playoffs. It certainly doesn't tally with your claim in the thread this thread broke off from that
You really think I'm saying KG is a worse playoff performer because of PER? He was a worse playoff performer than a regular season performer because his shooting efficiency got much worse similar to David Robinson who also gets bagged on a lot for his declining playoff play.

It's quite clear you really have nothing to support how KG is a better playoff performer. You have just backtracked to saying everybody in the playoffs get worse except for a few.

Next.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
You really think I'm saying KG is a worse playoff performer because of PER? He was a worse playoff performer than a regular season performer because his shooting efficiency got much worse similar to David Robinson who also gets bagged on a lot for his declining playoff play.

It's quite clear you really have nothing to support how KG is a better playoff performer. You have just backtracked to saying everybody in the playoffs get worse except for a few.

Next.
You used PER first not me. It's convenient to use across eras because it adjusts for pace, and accounts for all elements of the boxscore. But if you want to look at other players whose turnovers have gone up and percentages have gone down in the playoffs (whilst increasing scoring and rebounding in Garnett's case) I'm pretty sure it's not rare.

And so far as having "got nothing" unlike you I don't have an agenda. You tend to prefer mocking your "opponents" rather than addressing their points (hence your creating this thread rather than taking on the points of others in the original thread).

I didn't backtrack because I never claimed it was better I said it was about where it should be and could be argued to be better, wheras you claimed it was considerably worse.

I've never said everybody gets worse either, I've said everybody seems worse because of the higher level of competition, which has always been the central tenant of my argument one which you have repeatedly mocked without accounting for why you think KG is "much worse" in the playoffs.
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by Owl
I didn't backtrack because I never claimed it was better I said it was about where it should be and could be argued to be better, wheras you claimed it was considerably worse.
And you have done absolutely nothing to show how you could argue that it was better.

I was actually wrong that it was considerably worse but I think it is clear that his post-season performance was worse than his regular season performance though.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by NugzHeat3
You don't know much about that series besides the stats, do you?

Watch the game highlights here from game two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1...eature=related

Watch Dirk's highlights here from game three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHdTYU-lGpw

How many points does he score on KG in the two videos combined? 10, maybe 12? There's a couple of drives and stepback jumpers against him but safe to say, it's not much.

There are a good number of points Dirk gets from spotting up in transition or after being set up by the guards after their dribble penetration. He also scores on mismatches against smaller guards like Billups and Peeler. The rest of them are by drawing fouls or scoring one on one against guys like Sam Mitchell, Gary Trent, Rasho and Joe Smith. There's a couple of putbacks in there too.

Throughout the series, Wolves played a lot of match up zone (1-2-2 which is mentioned in the first video) with KG near the top of the key trying to help out and disrupt the offense meaning that KG didn't have a specific assignment. There's a lot of defensive breakdowns on Minny's behalf as well since Mavs iso'd a lot and had a lot of offensive firepower so Dirk got a lot of pts in by just spotting up which is a good thing since it shows he can space the floor but he's not scoring on KG in these situations. You can see Saunders (Minny's coach) comment on this too:


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102114317.htm

Game report from game one stating how Sam Mitchell starts off guarding Dirk:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102111318.htm

Perfect example why head to head numbers can give a skewed conclusion of a match up. Also, Dirk didn't guard KG a lot either in case anyone was wondering. That job primarily went to Najera with occasional help from LaFrentz and Dirk as well.




http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102118319.htm
Did I say they were matched up? He didn't have the impact that Nowitzki had. That was my point. It wasn't an all-time great series at all. If it was, so was Duncan vs. Lakers in 2002 playoffs.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:22 PM   #29
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by Odinn
Did I say they were matched up? He didn't have the impact that Nowitzki had. That was my point. It wasn't an all-time great series at all. If it was, so was Duncan vs. Lakers in 2002 playoffs.
Umm, you said Nowitzki destroyed Garnett.

Ask anyone and they'll tell you that implies they were matched up together.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:49 AM   #30
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Apparently this guy thinks so....

I absolutely would love to hear the reasoning behind how KG was a better playoff performer if anyone actually thinks this. There is a reason why KG isn't ranked as high as Duncan or why the Duncan-KG debate isn't even close and it is because Duncan had the extra gear for the post-season while KG didn't. Duncan was a great playoff performer whereas KG was only a good playoff performer at best.

I'll let you guys decide though but here is KG's career regular season stats and playoff stats

RS - 19.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.5 bpg, 1.3 spg, 2.3 topg, 49.9% FG, 79% FT, 54.9% TS, 23.3 PER

PS - 19.6 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.4 bpg, 1.3 spg, 2.5 topg, 47.2% FG, 78.2% FT, 51.9% TS, 21.7 PER

I say he was a much better regular season performer and I didn't need the stats to even back me up but if someone wanted to see them there they are above.

Here is KG's regular season stats and playoff stats during his prime though ('98-'08)

RS - 22.0 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.7 topg, 49.4% FG, 78.8% FT, 55% TS, 25.5 PER

PS - 22.3 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg, 46.9% FG, 77.4% FT, 52.3% TS, 23.9 PER

Keep in mind that KG missed the post-season for 3 straight seasons from '04 to '07.
This is why you don't gloss over stats to make a point, when, if you seen a guy play - you would just simply know better. KG is a great defensive presence. In '08 opposing teams didn't make it in the paint. It was one of the best defenses ever. His stat line: 20.4/10.5/3.3 <----- Come playoff time he really sucks!!! KG was the best player in the playoffs that year. When it comes to a total player you can't do the measure thing that easy because defense isn't really measured much and how he adjust his game to team needs isn't factored in.

How many guys can lead their team to the conference finals while leading their team in points, rebounds, assist, blocks, FT's and was second in steals, while being the defensive keg and playing 4 offensive positions and 3 defensive positions, played inside and made three pointers, play center and point guard? KG is one of the few players to make it to the conference finals on the back of his offensive play (as noted here) and then later on lead one of the best defensive teams to the championship. There is nobody in the history of the game like that but you want to play the numbers game?

No man is an island. Come playoff time you take away a teams strength. I don't care who you are, come playoff time if you don't have offensive help and shooters, teams can isolate you and beat your team if your team can't make shots or finish plays. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS! Not Jordan, Not Kobe, Not Wilt, Not Anybody. Teams could overload on Garnett without fear or retribution and you still want to say why wasn't he better? Did you see him play? You seen other players lead their team in every category, lead the league PER, lead the league in rebounding, play every position offensively and defensively, while guarding the other teams best player all year, making first team all defense, and then continuing that in playoffs and you COMPLAIN about his numbers!!! KG wasn't light years away. You should have seen him play.
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