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Old 04-25-2012, 04:23 AM   #31
Horatio33
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Didn't KG have the deciding game against the Sonics where he had TEN TURNOVERS! He had 7 points and 8 boards I think.

It's funny that until he got to Boston he was an underachiever mostly in the playoffs. Funny what a ring can do for you. Same with Dirk.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:12 AM   #32
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
And you have done absolutely nothing to show how you could argue that it was better.

I was actually wrong that it was considerably worse but I think it is clear that his post-season performance was worse than his regular season performance though.
When you make a claim such as
Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
I already know KG's numbers got much worse in the post-season than in the regular season.
the onus/burden of proof is on you.

I felt you had yet to give any clear proof of this.

My smaller claim was that one could make a case that KG was better. Note, not that I would make that case, but simply that it was arguable. For that, given that not all impact shows up in the boxscore, his statistical playoff performance simply needs to be close to that of his regular season. Through his prime (thus not overweighting his Boston playoff runs) they were. I added that nearly all players fall off in the playoffs and acknowledged the few exceptions. I did so using the tool you used in your opening post PER, at which point you inexplicably started mocking drawing conclusions based on PER, sidestepping the point.

But if you specifically want fg% drops (league average)
2011 reg season fg shooting % .459, playoffs .439
2010 reg season fg shooting % .461, playoffs .453
2009 reg season fg shooting % .459, playoffs .451
2008 reg season fg shooting % .457, playoffs .444
2007 reg season fg shooting % .458, playoffs .442
2006 reg season fg shooting % .454, playoffs .459
The playoffs can skew if a team with a good fg% scorer as their main guy or 2 (Shaq, Nowitzki) get deep runs into the playoffs, but fg% tends to slip usually by a little over a percent.

Now remember this significantly understates the fall off, because all the worst teams aren't in the playoffs, and the better teams have higher fg% in the regular season than the league average (and no I'm not going to spend the time finding the fg% for those teams who did make the playoffs for a troll like yourself).

Ah but only 2nd and third options fall off, 1st options magically get more efficient (despite increased defensive focus) I seem to recall you suggesting. But I will repeat .... PROVE IT. I showed you that by PER (a metric first used by you) even great legendary "clutch" players have worse numbers in the playoffs, and I acknowledged the few exceptions (Duncan, Olajuwon). If you have many more examples feel free to show them (but be sure that these are comparable elite players, and that weightings aren't distorted by non-playoff appearances in their worst years).

I'm glad you've backed off your absurd stance that
Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
And what is your opinion supported by? I'm not going to pull up numbers because I already know KG's numbers got much worse in the post-season than in the regular season.

Next time before making any claims, give me some evidence, and then ask more knowledgeable posters, because your ignorance is staggering.
Because for such a breathtakingly arrogant post, you transpired, by your own admission to have misremembered the numbers and they are significantly closer than you had thought.

Still your misplaced confidence that you are the only authority on all things basketball is irritating (as is your methods of arguing, including ignoring most of a posters points and splintering threads rather than addressing peoples points face to face). Its a shame because I don't like sticking people on ignore, but more threads like this would force me to make an exception.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:53 AM   #33
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NugzHeat3
Except that I didn't.

I wasn't using the line to prove anything except that Najera was guarding KG and not Dirk.

That was the whole point of the post because I've seen way too many people jump to conclusions strictly based on head to head numbers and not just this particular series but literally every single one of them.

Head to head numbers are essentially worthless to me without knowing much about the series or best put, watching them.


I was just making a joke. Yea...those head to head numbers don't mean much to me either.

However, Dirk was easily the best player in that series and swept KG...and its not like KG didn't have good help either. Billups and Wally were balling in that series.

And people bring it up because KG called out Dirk before the playoffs and then did absolutely nothing to slow him down.

So its brought up when people act like KG was on another level as a player...because its just not true. And when you talk shit and then do nothing to stop the other PF from torching your team....it doesn't look good. Especially in the playoffs.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:11 PM   #34
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I was just making a joke. Yea...those head to head numbers don't mean much to me either.

However, Dirk was easily the best player in that series and swept KG...and its not like KG didn't have good help either. Billups and Wally were balling in that series.

And people bring it up because KG called out Dirk before the playoffs and then did absolutely nothing to slow him down.

So its brought up when people act like KG was on another level as a player...because its just not true. And when you talk shit and then do nothing to stop the other PF from torching your team....it doesn't look good. Especially in the playoffs.
It wasn't KG's call to play Dirk. Minny had one strength and that was KG so the coach decided to stick with that which made sense. Billups was a journeyman, back up guard so they wouldn't depend on him and Nash still noticably outplayed him. Wally, was a never consistent, one dimensional player and could only score on broken plays because of overplays on Garnett. Wally still was thoroughly outplayed by Finley.

In overall play KG had a great series. He was still worth 34 ppg on offense and 19 rebounds. Plus he played defense.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
It wasn't KG's call to play Dirk. Minny had one strength and that was KG so the coach decided to stick with that which made sense. Billups was a journeyman, back up guard so they wouldn't depend on him and Nash still noticably outplayed him. Wally, was a never consistent, one dimensional player and could only score on broken plays because of overplays on Garnett. Wally still was thoroughly outplayed by Finley.

In overall play KG had a great series. He was still worth 34 ppg on offense and 19 rebounds. Plus he played defense.

Forget the fact that they didn't guard each other or whatever. Nobody that actually watched that series came away from it with any conclusion other than:

Dirk was the best player on the floor.

That is all I've ever said concerning that series. That Dirk was the best player on the floor. Which he was....if we can't both agree to that...then honestly there is no point in even ever debating this stuff here. Because it's really just a fact.

And no, Nash did not thoroughly outplay Billups. Billups averaged 22/5/6 on 55% TS. Nash didn't do anything better than that. In fact, Nash played worse defense (apparently this matters so much...right?)...scored 21 a game and shot 39% from the field. Nash did average 3 more assists a game. But claiming that Nash was noticeably better than Billups in that series is revisionist history....which is what people do best here. LOL

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-25-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Forget the fact that they didn't guard each other or whatever. Nobody that actually watched that series came away from it with any conclusion other than:

Dirk was the best player on the floor.

That is all I've ever said concerning that series. That Dirk was the best player on the floor. Which he was....if we can't both agree to that...then honestly there is no point in even ever debating this stuff here. Because it's really just a fact.

And no, Nash did not thoroughly outplay Billups. Billups averaged 22/5/6 on 55% TS. Nash didn't do anything better than that. In fact, Nash played worse defense (apparently this matters so much...right?)...scored 21 a game and shot 39% from the field. Nash did average 3 more assists a game. But claiming that Nash was noticeably better than Billups in that series is revisionist history....which is what people do best here. LOL
You didn't see the series! Nash absolutely controlled the flow. Dallas won because they stayed pushing the ball and passed very well on the perimeter. So are you lying or did you just did not see the series? Minny constantly just never got their defense together and couldn't recoup on the switches. Minny was a victim of Nash constantly keeping them on their heels. Its all over the youtube clips provided above. Dirk was as hot as hot could be and the MVP of that series but Nash, was the engine and was just as important. The reason why Dallas couldn't hang with Sacramento was because they were maybe one or two teams that could play to Dallas's strength better than them - running. The faster pace Nash preferred, backfired on them.

It wasn't Billups fault as he wasn't used to being a starter. But Nash was on point and constantly attacking. Billups was primarily a 15-20ft jumpers jump shooter not accustomed to adjusting with limited players. But he was basically new to starting and wasn't controlling tempo and somebody that was used to controlling playoff ball. Nash was coming into his own and totally kept Minny off balance. For you to say that Billups outplayed him could only be said in ignorance of how the game is played or a straight up lie. Billups had two more assist than KG for the whole series, while Nash was fully entrenched into running the show. I wouldn't even call it revisionist history on your part, as much as I would call it dumbing down.

Last edited by Pointguard : 04-26-2012 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:25 PM   #37
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

KG was never the prime example of someone raising his game in the playoffs, but I didn't think he was worse either, basically the same level to me.

As far as the stats, I'll use '00-'04, his prime started no earlier than '00, imo, and even though it extended beyond '04, it's too deceptive because of the 3 years without a playoff game.

Regular Season- 22.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 TO, 1.7 bpg, 1.4 spg, 49 FG%, 54.3 TS%, 407 games
Playoffs- 23.7 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 3.5 TO, 1.9 bpg, 1.4 spg, 45.6 FG%, 51.5 TS%, 35 games

Numbers increased across the board except shooting efficiency. Shooting efficiency for pretty much everyone drops off around 1-2% to the playoffs. KG's drop off was a bit larger, but not a huge issue to me.

Outside of the numbers, I thought KG was great in the '03 playoffs and '04 playoffs, he raised his game in each postseason, imo. He was roughly on par with his regular season level in '08(which was very high to begin with). He wasn't as impressive to me in '00 or '02, but the '00 Blazer team contained multiple stars relative to their normal output that run(Malone, Shaq, Kobe) and Minnesota was just overmatched vs Portland. He played fine in '01, iirc, but faced a much better Spur team, and it was often the case that he was facing a team much better than his.

So in general, I'd say he wasn't really better or worse in the playoffs, but his performances in '03 and '04 really stand out. Actually, those 2 seasons stand out to me in general, KG was a better more aggressive scorer/player than ever to me. I'd have more confidence in him those 2 years than any other years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NugzHeat3
You don't know much about that series besides the stats, do you?

Watch the game highlights here from game two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVmo1...eature=related

Watch Dirk's highlights here from game three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHdTYU-lGpw

How many points does he score on KG in the two videos combined? 10, maybe 12? There's a couple of drives and stepback jumpers against him but safe to say, it's not much.

There are a good number of points Dirk gets from spotting up in transition or after being set up by the guards after their dribble penetration. He also scores on mismatches against smaller guards like Billups and Peeler. The rest of them are by drawing fouls or scoring one on one against guys like Sam Mitchell, Gary Trent, Rasho and Joe Smith. There's a couple of putbacks in there too.

Throughout the series, Wolves played a lot of match up zone (1-2-2 which is mentioned in the first video) with KG near the top of the key trying to help out and disrupt the offense meaning that KG didn't have a specific assignment. There's a lot of defensive breakdowns on Minny's behalf as well since Mavs iso'd a lot and had a lot of offensive firepower so Dirk got a lot of pts in by just spotting up which is a good thing since it shows he can space the floor but he's not scoring on KG in these situations. You can see Saunders (Minny's coach) comment on this too:


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102114317.htm

Game report from game one stating how Sam Mitchell starts off guarding Dirk:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102111318.htm

Perfect example why head to head numbers can give a skewed conclusion of a match up. Also, Dirk didn't guard KG a lot either in case anyone was wondering. That job primarily went to Najera with occasional help from LaFrentz and Dirk as well.




http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../102118319.htm

Thanks for that, I didn't even know highlights were up. Too bad there aren't full games up that I'm aware of.

I had remembered that KG wasn't the primary defender on Dirk, but didn't remember everything about the series, just that KG was also criticized for not doing more late in games as well.

But you're 100% right about head to head stats. I hate when people use them as some sort of proof for games they didn't even watch. I've said this many times as well when someone posts head to head stats from the regular season between hakeem and Robinson for example because I knew for a fact that they often weren't guarding each other, some games they weren't even the primary defenders on each other. And that was common in all of those star center match ups, and star match ups in general.

I'm not directing this criticism at anyone in this thread either.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
You didn't see the series! Nash absolutely controlled the flow. Dallas won because they stayed pushing the ball and passed very well on the perimeter. So are you lying or did you just did not see the series? Minny constantly just never got their defense together and couldn't recoup on the switches. Minny was a victim of Nash constantly keeping them on their heels. Its all over the youtube clips provided above. Dirk was as hot as hot could be and the MVP of that series but Nash, was the engine and was just as important. The reason why Dallas couldn't hang with Sacramento was because they were maybe one or two teams that could play to Dallas's strength better than them - running. The faster pace Nash preferred, backfired on them.

It wasn't Billups fault as he wasn't used to being a starter. But Nash was on point and constantly attacking. Billups was primarily a 15-20ft jumpers jump shooter not accustomed to adjusting with limited players. But he was basically new to starting and wasn't controlling tempo and somebody that was used to controlling playoff ball. Nash was coming into his own and totally kept Minny off balance. For you to say that Billups outplayed him could only be said in ignorance of how the game is played or a straight up lie. Billups had two more assist than KG for the whole series, while Nash was fully entrenched into running the show. I wouldn't even call it revisionist history on your part, as much as I would call it dumbing down.

No. You clearly didn't...or you wouldn't say things like "Nash thoroughly outplayed Billups"

Was Nash better? Probably, but not nearly to the extent that you claim.

And where do you get that I said Billups outplayed him? I never said that....and if it came across like that I am sorry for the confusion.

I don't care to really debate this because it's just a ****ing fact that Dirk outplayed KG in that series. You can list reasons why...and that is fine. But Dirk was the best player in that series. Sorry...only somebody with a huge agenda or simply didn't see a game of that series came away thinking that KG played better than Dirk.

And I already said that series means very little to me unless people start saying BS things about how far superior KG was back then...etc.

And I also find it quite comical that Dirk is hated on for defense by you...but you ignore that Nash is probably one of the worst defensive players in NBA history...far worse than Dirk. Does that not matter at all when discussing Nash?

Absurd. Stop with the nonsense.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-27-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:31 PM   #39
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Forget the fact that they didn't guard each other or whatever. Nobody that actually watched that series came away from it with any conclusion other than:

Dirk was the best player on the floor.

That is all I've ever said concerning that series. That Dirk was the best player on the floor. Which he was....if we can't both agree to that...then honestly there is no point in even ever debating this stuff here. Because it's really just a fact.

And no, Nash did not thoroughly outplay Billups. Billups averaged 22/5/6 on 55% TS. Nash didn't do anything better than that. In fact, Nash played worse defense (apparently this matters so much...right?)...scored 21 a game and shot 39% from the field. Nash did average 3 more assists a game. But claiming that Nash was noticeably better than Billups in that series is revisionist history....which is what people do best here. LOL

It's funny how you only showed Chauncey's TS% and instead use Nash's FG% even though they both had a TS% of 55% (Nash's actually might have been higher) during the series.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:33 PM   #40
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
No. You clearly didn't...or you wouldn't say things like "Nash thoroughly outplayed Billups"

Was Nash better? Probably, but not nearly to the extent that you claim.

And where do you get that I said Billups outplayed him? I never said that....and if it came across like that I am sorry for the confusion.

I don't care to really debate this because it's just a ****ing fact that Dirk outplayed KG in that series. You can list reasons why...and that is fine. But Dirk was the best player in that series. Sorry...only somebody with a huge agenda or simply didn't see a game of that series came away thinking that KG played better than Dirk.

And I already said that series means very little to me unless people start saying BS things about how far superior KG was back then...etc.

And I also find it quite comical that Dirk is hated on for defense by you...but you ignore that Nash is probably one of the worst defensive players in NBA history...far worse than Dirk. Does that not matter at all when discussing Nash?

Absurd. Stop with the nonsense.
Tangental point regarding the bolded, with regard to general comparisons not specifically this series.

Dirk is a big man playing a big man position. Nash is a guard.
Bigs defend their own men and penetrating permiter players and tend to have a larger impact on defense.
Perimeter guys tend to stick to their guy, occasionally doubling on a guy in the post. They don't tend to influence the game as much. Given the choice of a great defensive big and a great defensive guard, all else being equal you take the big every time.

So whilst Nash shouldn't get a pass on his defense Nowitzki's inadequacies (when he was inadequate) were more prominent, and less expected at that position and more impactful. This is not to say that Nowitzki was the worse defender, he wasn't, just that for each degree of badness of defensive abilty, or indeed goodness, it is multiplied by the larger defensive role of the big man.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:36 PM   #41
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
No. You clearly didn't...or you wouldn't say things like "Nash thoroughly outplayed Billups"

Was Nash better? Probably, but not nearly to the extent that you claim.

And where do you get that I said Billups outplayed him? I never said that....and if it came across like that I am sorry for the confusion.
I never said that either. You did say that even saying that Nash played noticeably better is revisionist history. I was addressing that. When you play Steve Nash tempo you are playing Steve Nash's game. Minny was a victim of Steve Nash tempo and penetration. Nash, like on the Pheonix teams, was responsible for affecting the whole game. The way it was played to the point that even the other team got sucked up into the tempo he created. In a weird sort of way Nash had good defense because he got the other team playing to his pace. A pace where he could out execute almost all other point guards. D'Antoni could not get other players to do this. And Dallas beat Minny primarily thru destabilizing them.

Quote:
I don't care to really debate this because it's just a ****ing fact that Dirk outplayed KG in that series. You can list reasons why...and that is fine. But Dirk was the best player in that series. Sorry...only somebody with a huge agenda or simply didn't see a game of that series came away thinking that KG played better than Dirk.
Didn't I already say that? However, KG was responsible for just as many points, better defense and rebounded more. Dirk scored a lot but he doesn't score like that without Nash creating havoc.
Quote:
And I already said that series means very little to me unless people start saying BS things about how far superior KG was back then...etc.

And I also find it quite comical that Dirk is hated on for defense by you...but you ignore that Nash is probably one of the worst defensive players in NBA history...far worse than Dirk. Does that not matter at all when discussing Nash?

Absurd. Stop with the nonsense.
Nash gets the oposing team to play his game. Dirk, rarely guarded the outstanding powerforwards of that time and certainly didn't influence how the other team played. This wasn't the case with other great PF's. Nash was extremely unique and very influential on how games were played.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:48 PM   #42
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doranku
It's funny how you only showed Chauncey's TS% and instead use Nash's FG% even though they both had a TS% of 55% (Nash's actually might have been higher) during the series.

Because I don't have it....that is why.

And I'm not arguing Billups was better.

I'm refuting the line:

Nash thoroughly outplayed Billups....which is simply not true on any level.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
I never said that either. You did say that even saying that Nash played noticeably better is revisionist history. I was addressing that. When you play Steve Nash tempo you are playing Steve Nash's game. Minny was a victim of Steve Nash tempo and penetration. Nash, like on the Pheonix teams, was responsible for affecting the whole game. The way it was played to the point that even the other team got sucked up into the tempo he created. In a weird sort of way Nash had good defense because he got the other team playing to his pace. A pace where he could out execute almost all other point guards. D'Antoni could not get other players to do this. And Dallas beat Minny primarily thru destabilizing them.

Didn't I already say that? However, KG was responsible for just as many points, better defense and rebounded more. Dirk scored a lot but he doesn't score like that without Nash creating havoc.

Nash gets the oposing team to play his game. Dirk, rarely guarded the outstanding powerforwards of that time and certainly didn't influence how the other team played. This wasn't the case with other great PF's. Nash was extremely unique and very influential on how games were played.

Lets boil this down to the two claims I've made because you are off on a tangent trying to explain to me why Nash is a really good player...which doesn't need explaining.

Point #1

Dirk was the best player in that series. Doesn't really mean much, but Dirk was clearly the best player in that series. Nobody that watched that series came away thinking that KG was the best player.


Point #2

Nash did not thoroughly outplay Billups. Was Nash better...probably, but not nearly to the extent you claim.


Please refute those points if you like. Anything else is you shifting the focus.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:53 AM   #44
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Point #2

Nash did not thoroughly outplay Billups. Was Nash better...probably, but not nearly to the extent you claim.

Please refute those points if you like. Anything else is you shifting the focus.
I'll keep it plain.

You said: "even saying that Nash played noticeably better is revisionist history." <-----In reference to Billups.

If you watched the series several things are very apparent:
One team played a tempo very favorable to their teams advantage. Can you guess who was responsible for that pace?

One player constantly put the other team on their heels and passed crisply off of his penetration. Can you name that player? One team passed the ball very crisply along the perimeter. Dallas had a very fast pace the whole year and somehow maintained it in the post season, which was very hard to do without a great point guard. If that pace and pressure is not maintained, Minny doesn't get stuck with the plethora of mismatches seen in the youtube clips above.

Dirk was the MVP of that series. Nash, however was more important to that team than Dirk was. That team played a fast pace like Nash's Pheonix teams did. Nash was always the most important player on those teams and shooters always flourished on those teams. In the next series, the Mavs met a team that nuetralized Nash's pressure and pace. Dirk was irrelevant, he could have scored 40 ppg with 18 rebounds - the fact was that Nash - the most important piece was nuetralized by a superior running team. Nash was a master of the fast pace game and sucked whole other teams into that orbit. Minny in that series is a great example.

To say that Billups - a career journey man and bench player at the beginning of that year was on par with Nash isn't correct at all. He had trouble keeping Nash in front of him and was helpless in controlling pace - which is ok, because he was new to this situation. If the game was slowed down, Minny doesn't get swept. You saying that Billups was on par with Nash in that series is wrong on several levels (pace, execution, playing to team's strength, maintaining pressure, keeping a team on their heels, running Pick and Roles, executing, keeping player's hot, staying on top of mismatches, hitting players in stride). You simply have missed the importance of Nash's play. And you insist on saying Billups was his equal that series. He was nowhere near Nash's level of play at that time. Only J Kidd had Nash's type of effect on the game at that time.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:56 AM   #45
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Tangental point regarding the bolded, with regard to general comparisons not specifically this series.

Dirk is a big man playing a big man position. Nash is a guard.
Bigs defend their own men and penetrating permiter players and tend to have a larger impact on defense.
Perimeter guys tend to stick to their guy, occasionally doubling on a guy in the post. They don't tend to influence the game as much. Given the choice of a great defensive big and a great defensive guard, all else being equal you take the big every time.

So whilst Nash shouldn't get a pass on his defense Nowitzki's inadequacies (when he was inadequate) were more prominent, and less expected at that position and more impactful. This is not to say that Nowitzki was the worse defender, he wasn't, just that for each degree of badness of defensive abilty, or indeed goodness, it is multiplied by the larger defensive role of the big man.
Thanks Owl!
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