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Old 04-28-2012, 01:11 AM   #46
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
I'll keep it plain.

You said: "even saying that Nash played noticeably better is revisionist history." <-----In reference to Billups.

If you watched the series several things are very apparent:
One team played a tempo very favorable to their teams advantage. Can you guess who was responsible for that pace?

One player constantly put the other team on their heels and passed crisply off of his penetration. Can you name that player? One team passed the ball very crisply along the perimeter. Dallas had a very fast pace the whole year and somehow maintained it in the post season, which was very hard to do without a great point guard. If that pace and pressure is not maintained, Minny doesn't get stuck with the plethora of mismatches seen in the youtube clips above.

Dirk was the MVP of that series. Nash, however was more important to that team than Dirk was. That team played a fast pace like Nash's Pheonix teams did. Nash was always the most important player on those teams and shooters always flourished on those teams. In the next series, the Mavs met a team that nuetralized Nash's pressure and pace. Dirk was irrelevant, he could have scored 40 ppg with 18 rebounds - the fact was that Nash - the most important piece was nuetralized by a superior running team. Nash was a master of the fast pace game and sucked whole other teams into that orbit. Minny in that series is a great example.

To say that Billups - a career journey man and bench player at the beginning of that year was on par with Nash isn't correct at all. He had trouble keeping Nash in front of him and was helpless in controlling pace - which is ok, because he was new to this situation. If the game was slowed down, Minny doesn't get swept. You saying that Billups was on par with Nash in that series is wrong on several levels (pace, execution, playing to team's strength, maintaining pressure, keeping a team on their heels, running Pick and Roles, executing, keeping player's hot, staying on top of mismatches, hitting players in stride). You simply have missed the importance of Nash's play. And you insist on saying Billups was his equal that series. He was nowhere near Nash's level of play at that time. Only J Kidd had Nash's type of effect on the game at that time.


Not that it would be such a bold claim, but i never said Billups was on par with Nash. I said he wasn't decisively or noticeably better.

I love how you want to talk about all of these intangible things...some of which i agree with...some of which i don't...but when it comes to KG and Dirk...its all about KG's "stats"

Well, if you want to make it about that other stuff.....then Dirk vs KG statistically is far closer than reality. KG's impact was really just "stats"....and he had virtually no defensive impact in the series of note either

I watched every play of that series...as a huge Nash fan. Wasn't even a huge Dirk fan yet. I was a Nash guy. I absolutely did not come away from that series thinking Nash was more important to the team than Dirk. I came away thinking that Dirk was the MVP and most important player on the team and that Dirk just shut the cocky bastard KG up.

I thought Nash played well, but I was also really impressed with how easily Billups scored the ball.

Dirk was decisively and clearly the best player in the series

Nash vs Billups? Meh....slight edge to Nash...not nearly the gap you claim

And stop giving KG a pass for having no defensive impact in the series. You can't just credit a player with great defense without them impacting a series at all defensively. What did he do defensively? Did he stop Dirk? Did he slow down the pick and roll? Did he shut down dribble penetration in the paint?

He did none of that.

But of course you want to shift the focus of the discussion because you know this to be true. To create a semantics argument about how much better Nash was than Billups. You say thoroughly...I say slightly. Don't really care to argue that because its besides the point.

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KG in 02. Deal with it.

Oh, and your take on the Mavs vs Kings series is a joke. The Mavs lost 2 really close games in that series. Dirk was pretty bad in both of them. If Dirk had played better, the Mavs could have easily stretched that series to 7 games. In game 4, Dirk went 9 of 28 and the Mavs lost by 2. So no, If Dirk had gone for 40 and 18 the Mavs would have quite easily just won that series. The reason the Mavs lost that series...besides the Kings just being better...was that both Dirk and Nash struggled.

Calling Dirk irrelevant is absurd. But that is what you do....

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 04-28-2012 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:24 AM   #47
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
KG was never the prime example of someone raising his game in the playoffs, but I didn't think he was worse either, basically the same level to me.
Which is probably right. If you all remember KG he played with great intensity throughout his prime. If Minny was playing LA on a winning streak and Minny was on a losing streak while out of the playoff race, and they were losing by 30 points in the second quarter KG played the game just like it was the playoffs. To the casual fan, I expect them not to notice that... But KG gets no props for giving it his all, all the time. He got a max contract he played to the max. His energy and intensity level was superior to anybodies from game one to their last game. Not that I ever saw him tired for the playoffs, but I just don't think he has a higher level because he plays close to max pretty much all the time.

I don't really think players step it up in the playoffs - I think they play without concerning themselves with pace. Like Dirk could probably average 12 rebounds a game in the regular season up to a couple of season's ago. But he paces himself so it ends up being 9 a game. The whole SA team conserves itself for the playoffs. KG gets no love and people rarely talk about his intensity, except in negative ways. KG also is one of the most intelligent bigmen in the league and makes as many right decisions, offensively and defensively, as anybody in the game. Just a few things that I notice that people rarely talk about.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:56 AM   #48
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I watched every play of that series...as a huge Nash fan. Wasn't even a huge Dirk fan yet. I was a Nash guy. I absolutely did not come away from that series thinking Nash was more important to the team than Dirk. I came away thinking that Dirk was the MVP and most important player on the team and that Dirk just shut the cocky bastard KG up.

I thought Nash played well, but I was also really impressed with how easily Billups scored the ball.

Dirk was decisively and clearly the best player in the series

Nash vs Billups? Meh....slight edge to Nash...not nearly the gap you claim
If you don't know how Nash affects a game, YOU JUST DON"T KNOW. He won MVPs because of his dictation of pace.
Quote:
But of course you want to shift the focus of the discussion because you know this to be true. To create a semantics argument about how much better Nash was than Billups. You say thoroughly...I say slightly. Don't really care to argue that because its besides the point.

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KG in 02. Deal with it.
I haven't said much of anything about KG in my post to you at all. You are the one shifting focus.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:00 AM   #49
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

He basically played the same in the regular season as the playoffs. Probably a better by a bit.
In 03 and 04 specifically though, I'd say he raised his level of play by quite a bit though. He had kind of disappointing series in 00 and 01 though.

Last edited by magnax1 : 04-28-2012 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:02 AM   #50
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Default Re: Was Kevin Garnett a better playoff performer than regular season performer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
KG was never the prime example of someone raising his game in the playoffs, but I didn't think he was worse either, basically the same level to me.

As far as the stats, I'll use '00-'04, his prime started no earlier than '00, imo, and even though it extended beyond '04, it's too deceptive because of the 3 years without a playoff game.

Regular Season- 22.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.9 TO, 1.7 bpg, 1.4 spg, 49 FG%, 54.3 TS%, 407 games
Playoffs- 23.7 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 3.5 TO, 1.9 bpg, 1.4 spg, 45.6 FG%, 51.5 TS%, 35 games

Numbers increased across the board except shooting efficiency. Shooting efficiency for pretty much everyone drops off around 1-2% to the playoffs. KG's drop off was a bit larger, but not a huge issue to me.

Outside of the numbers, I thought KG was great in the '03 playoffs and '04 playoffs, he raised his game in each postseason, imo. He was roughly on par with his regular season level in '08(which was very high to begin with). He wasn't as impressive to me in '00 or '02, but the '00 Blazer team contained multiple stars relative to their normal output that run(Malone, Shaq, Kobe) and Minnesota was just overmatched vs Portland. He played fine in '01, iirc, but faced a much better Spur team, and it was often the case that he was facing a team much better than his.

So in general, I'd say he wasn't really better or worse in the playoffs, but his performances in '03 and '04 really stand out. Actually, those 2 seasons stand out to me in general, KG was a better more aggressive scorer/player than ever to me. I'd have more confidence in him those 2 years than any other years.

Good post, I think you could argue that if someone sustains the same playoff stats as their regular season stats that they are actually a better playoff performer than a regular season performer since the teams and defenses are better and tougher. It isn't always the case though because there are plenty of defensively challenged teams that make it to the post-season.

I think if someone's stats get worse in the playoffs though that they are more than likely worse. I think KG is a better regular season performer than playoff performer but not by as much as I initially thought.
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