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Old 01-19-2013, 05:17 AM   #3346
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
Not a liability. You can look at yellow cards but that's simply one stat. It doesn't define what he does on defense.


At Sevilla, he'd usually sit back for near the first hour of the game, and would then go hog wild the last 35min. He used to pull strings from well behind the midfield line, until he'd start to cut thru the middle and link everyone up.


Also, as an attacking fullback (specifically, as a Brazilian fullback), his offense was part of his defense. His attacking prowess often kept the other team's wingers and/or fullbacks, CM's, deeper.

A yellow card isn't a stat. A yellow card is the last warning a player gets when he is send off, and Dani Alves usually gets a yellow card the very first time he tries to tackle somebody. That doesn't "define him defensively"? Every time a guy like Dani Alves gets a yellow card, the opposition has a free pass to run their offense down the left for the rest of the game.




And I am in no way discounting his offensive prowess. He's probably the best offensive player at that position I have seen. The benefit he brings to offense certainly overshadows his defensive impotence, on a possession team at least.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:36 AM   #3347
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Remy already scored for QPR
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:28 PM   #3348
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Since we're still talking about Alves, he's getting destroyed out there today
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #3349
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Alba is a little bitch... if he tried pushing me like that I'd sock his bitch ass.

Meanwhile, Bremen fell off hard. Couple of years ago, they were one of the best teams in Germany. Dortmund running all over them.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:52 PM   #3350
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Barça lost
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #3351
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Gotta tip my hat off to Sociedad... They almost tied/beat Madrid couple of weeks ago and today they beat Barcelona after going down 2-0....

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Old 01-19-2013, 02:24 PM   #3352
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

lol
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:41 PM   #3353
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

What're you loling about?
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:40 PM   #3354
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
Yeah about that. I see you guys calling someone a great slide tackler, or a bad stand tackler. Just as a heads up: there is really no difference.

A slide tackle is essentially just an extension of the reach of your standing tackle. The required skill remains the exact same though: the deciding factors here are prediction, perception and dexterity.

No such thing as a player being great at slidings but bad at standing tackles. There is absolutely no sense at differentiating between the two and pointing out a player's excellence at one of them. The main difference between the two is purely in it's appearance. A player is either good at tackling or not, it's the exact same skill. Furthermore for the record: Dani Alves is an example of a player who is baaaaad at it.


That is just not true. They are two different things. And as a slide-tackler, he's a great one. And he slides a lot. He usually does it on a backtrack and as a last ditch. That's the way he defends.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
A yellow card isn't a stat. A yellow card is the last warning a player gets when he is send off, and Dani Alves usually gets a yellow card the very first time he tries to tackle somebody. That doesn't "define him defensively"? Every time a guy like Dani Alves gets a yellow card, the opposition has a free pass to run their offense down the left for the rest of the game.




And I am in no way discounting his offensive prowess. He's probably the best offensive player at that position I have seen. The benefit he brings to offense certainly overshadows his defensive impotence, on a possession team at least.



Of course it's a stat. It may also be more than a stat but it is a statistic.


And I disagree. It really has little impact on how he defends. He defends as a last ditch defender. His offense is usually responsible for keeping the other teams at bay, and when there is a counter, he goes all-in and goes in for the slide. He does it a lot and he almost always wins the ball and knocks it out of bounds.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:15 PM   #3355
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoah10115
That is just not true. They are two different things. And as a slide-tackler, he's a great one. And he slides a lot. He usually does it on a backtrack and as a last ditch. That's the way he defends.


I've made thousands of tackles in my life and suddenly you are telling me there are two discernible forms that are completely different in execution?

The only thing that's different is the way it looks. It's literally the exact same skill. Anticipation, timing, perception and dexterity. You simply have to get at the ball, if you can do it sliding you can do it standing. A standing tackle naturally extends to a sliding tackle. The form factor is completely secondary to the fundamental skills involved.

Quote:
Of course it's a stat. It may also be more than a stat but it is a statistic.


And I disagree. It really has little impact on how he defends. He defends as a last ditch defender. His offense is usually responsible for keeping the other teams at bay, and when there is a counter, he goes all-in and goes in for the slide. He does it a lot and he almost always wins the ball and knocks it out of bounds.

That's like saying tackling is a stat and therefore we can't discuss it. Dani Alves' exorbitant fouling and inability to defend cleanly can't be part of the discussion because "it's a stat"? That's ridiculous.

You and I both know that Dani Alves is a lot more involved offensively than most backs, he's all over the place offensively and thus by extension is less involved in the defense. We also know that back when Dani Alves actually had to (try to) make a significant contribution on defense -when he played at Sevilla- he'd generally make way more fouls than what is considered incidental and regular. As evidenced by the games themselves, but also by the objective fact that he'd routinely mop up around 15 yellows over a season where a normal number of yellows would be around 5. So essentially he gets yellow carded three times as much as the average back, while playing far less defense than the average back. But somehow he is "an amazing slide tackler who gets the ball almost always"? Your opinion doesn't fit the narrative in the slightest.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:32 PM   #3356
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Another hattrick for Jozy Altidore. He's only 2 goals behind Bony for the top scorer of the Eredivisie. Great to see how much his game has improved since coming to the Netherlands.

Hopefully he can finally translate this form over to the national team. You watching this game LJJ?
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:41 PM   #3357
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
I've made thousands of tackles in my life and suddenly you are telling me there are two discernible forms that are completely different in execution?

The only thing that's different is the way it looks. It's literally the exact same skill. Anticipation, timing, perception and dexterity. You simply have to get at the ball, if you can do it sliding you can do it standing. A standing tackle naturally extends to a sliding tackle. The form factor is completely secondary to the fundamental skills involved.


As have I, even from the front (I'm that striker who loves to slide).


If it was the same thing, then you wouldn't have a bunch of guys who aren't great tacklers and have to go to ground. A lot of guys excel. Gerrard is a good stand-up tackler, but he's one of the best slide-tacklers in recent memory. Rio Ferdinand is a terrific tackler, who has gone to ground twice in his life. If it was the same thing, then guys would be just as adept doing it one way as doing it the other. Yes, sliding can be an extension of standing up, but it's obviously not the same thing. Usually, you slide because you have to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
That's like saying tackling is a stat and therefore we can't discuss it. Dani Alves' exorbitant fouling and inability to defend cleanly can't be part of the discussion because "it's a stat"? That's ridiculous.

You and I both know that Dani Alves is a lot more involved offensively than most backs, he's all over the place offensively and thus by extension is less involved in the defense. We also know that back when Dani Alves actually had to (try to) make a significant contribution on defense -when he played at Sevilla- he'd generally make way more fouls than what is considered incidental and regular. As evidenced by the games themselves, but also by the objective fact that he'd routinely mop up around 15 yellows over a season where a normal number of yellows would be around 5. So essentially he gets yellow carded three times as much as the average back, while playing far less defense than the average back. But somehow he is "an amazing slide tackler who gets the ball almost always"? Your opinion doesn't fit the narrative in the slightest.



When did I say it isn't part of the discussion? I said it's one stat and not the end-all, be-all. I never said we can't discuss it. I don't think the actual card is a big deal, as he is not usually getting sent off on a second card, nor is he changing the way he defends or attacks based on the card. And he's not being suspended multiple times a year because of accumulated yellow cards. The bigger issue would be fouling when he doesn't have to, or fouling because he put himself in a bad position.


Also, while he has had a decent number of yellow cards accumulated, his numbers from this year (0) to his first at Sevilla (14):

0
5
10
7
10
12
14
11
9
14


So, it's not quite as bad as you said, but it does confirm that he gets a lot. But so what? It's the foul that's most important. And yes, we both agree he's involved in everything offensively and he isn't the usual attacking fullback, overlapping a lot. The guy does everything.


But the fact that he attempts a decent number slides and does win the ball remains the fact, even if he's not a good defender. It's simply one thing I said, and just because the overall defensive game isn't good doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. It's simply one thing.


And again, his offense is a big part of his defense. Both in that in the cliche of "A good defense is a good offense" and in the fact that his involvement on offense puts him at risk, defensively. But that has less to do with what he can do on defense and more to do with how high-risk his offensive game is.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 01-19-2013 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:41 PM   #3358
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinder
Another hattrick for Jozy Altidore. He's only 2 goals behind Bony for the top scorer of the Eredivisie. Great to see how much his game has improved since coming to the Netherlands.

Hopefully he can finally translate this form over to the national team. You watching this game LJJ?

Yes. This game is insane, Vitesse was deadly before the winter break. That just it though, it's the first game after the winter break. Three of the top five teams have played so far, and each of them has looked terrible. Bony isn't playing either, and he's is pretty important for Vitesse.

That said I hope this is a bit of a turnaround for AZ. They are my dad's hometown team and I'm a Verbeek fan too.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:47 PM   #3359
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
Yes. This game is insane, Vitesse was deadly before the winter break. That just it though, it's the first game after the winter break. Three of the top five teams have played so far, and each of them has looked terrible. Bony isn't playing either, and he's is pretty important for Vitesse.

That said I hope this is a bit of a turnaround for AZ. They are my dad's hometown team and I'm a Verbeek fan too.

Az was looking pretty terrible before the break, especially the defense but I loved their creativity and build up play today. Kakuta from Vitesse looks like an interesting player.

It seems like Verbeek has been a huge positive influence on Jozy's game...hope he gave him a great X-mas present because it seems like he's turned his career around.
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:13 PM   #3360
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Default Re: 2012-2013 English Premier League Thread (La Liga, Serie A, etc.)

[quote=Whoah10115]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
Also, while he has had a decent number of yellow cards accumulated, his numbers from this year (0) to his first at Sevilla (14):

0
5
10
7
10
12
14
11
9
14

I don't know where you get your stats, but they seem incomplete.

04 season: 15 yellow cards, only playing as a back half the season
05 season: 10 yellows, only playing as a back half the season
06 season: 13 yellows, first season primarily playing fullback
07 season: 16 yellows
08 season: 16 yellows

Of course he joins Barca in the 2008 summer, after this his fouls drop because Barcelona successfully adopts a possession shutout strategy.

The further assertions you make, that Alves doesn't change the way he plays after a yellow and that he only makes necessary fouls are off base. Like I said before, it doesn't fit the narrative. You can't say he spends so much of his time on offense, gets more yellow cards than any other fullback, but he still has the ability to play good clean defense when he has to. That just does not compute.
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