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Old 07-12-2013, 09:16 PM   #151
mrpuente
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoodlum Science
So it's your stance that you're either born 100% gay or 100% straight? You're saying one's social environment plays no role whatsoever? You're saying life experiences (particularly at a young age) play no role? It's just as simple as born gay or born straight, period. At this point none of us (which includes genetic scientists who have been studying this exact subject for years) know the entire scientific truth behind how one arrives at their sexual preference.

As science advances itself, we'll get closer and closer to the actual truth. We're only beginning to scratch the surface of human genome studies. Geneticists, even as intelligent as they are, and growing in numbers, have a huge uphill battle if we wish to unlock and discover the secrets within DNA. Picture how the study of biology has changed/advanced/evolved in just the past hundred years - now picture a hundreds years from today, I'd like to believe we'd have uncovered many of its hidden secrets, but entirely? Highly doubtful.

I'm confident in the next 20-25 years - scientifically - we'll be somewhere in the 99% range of knowing concretely if an individual is truly and purely "born" gay and/or we'll have a better understanding of splitting/sharing ratios. I doubt we'll get it down to an exact science, but we'll have the undeniable data and knowledge to help us be 99% confident in the scientific/factual determination of one's sexual preference.

I think at that time (many years into the future) it'll still be commonly considered to some degree, social environment and life experiences play some role. PT, maybe you're right, my 85/15 theory will be flipped on its head, and be more like the 85/15 you subscribe to (meaning you believe it's primarily hereditary with a little wiggle room for S.E. and L.E.'s). Would I be surprised if the hard data in the future tells us it's 100% one way or the other - no middle ground? Yes, very surprised. It wouldn't shock me though, if it were overwhelmingly genetic (85) and slightly S.E. / L.E. (15).

I don't believe any man (or woman) is 100% straight or 100% gay. It's also my opinion there's a cap. For example, no man can be born more than 20% (just using a random number) homosexual. Let's say some men are born in the 1-5% range, then 5-10%, and so on. A man born 18% homosexual prone, is way more likely to arrive at a same-sex sexual preference, whereas a man born 2% homosexual prone, a much less likelihood of being gay. Say you have a high probability (but still capped) subject, and you combine that with youthful life experiences that make one more prone to being a homosexual when they're older, then that individual is way more likely to turn out gay than a 3% who lives a typical normal life of a young male.

I realize many believe the numbers should be the exact opposite, and hey, maybe you're right. Maybe my "cap" theory is silly as hell. Maybe there are those who have the chance to be born upwards of 90-99% gay, and their S.E. has little to no impact whatsoever. Maybe some fall right into that 50/50 split range, and they end up either bi or pick a side. Maybe this said individual is personally conflicted and perplexed their entire life b/c there's no majority sexual preference pool.

Another thing that comes to mind is people who are more prone to be "born" gay, genetics being the overwhelming or only factor, then wouldn't that mean that individual's family tree is more gay than someone else's? If it's all or very high genetics, heredity must be a specific determining source. Just as they link depression, etc. to family history, I would assume it'd be no different than homosexuality, right? Maybe a young man at the age of 17 anxiously and fearfully announces at their annual family Christmas party he's gay. He's upset, crying or whatever. Some other family members drop their jaw. Meanwhile his grandpa's and dad's hearts stop. A chill runs through their bodies, because deep inside they feel or knew their entire lives they were gay, but were afraid and ashamed to admit, so they faked a marriage to fit into what society expected of them.

This family tree thing is very interesting to me. In my family, we have an open lesbian (my cousin, three years younger than me). Everyone is very accepting of her. To her's and everyone's knowledge, we don't know of anyone else in the family who is homosexual but there'd have to be, right? If it's hereditary, genetics, right? Especially if we're talking about you are straight up BORN gay or NOT born gay. There'd have to be a history of homosexuality down the line somewhere, right? This is why I believe it's more S.E. and L.E. > genetics. If the gay gene is prevalent, there should be other homosexuals within that family unit, and vice versa in straight families.

It wouldn't make sense if Family A (sample size of say 20 individuals) had only one truly legit homosexual in their unit. If it's hereditary, there'd have to be more, if we're talking 100% born gay. Maybe not immediate family, but somewhere in their family tree, there'd have to be more homosexuals, and like depression, etc. - it'd have to more than just the one fluke. It seems if genetics are the sole driving factor in one's sexual preference, other members of that family tree would be highly prone to being gay as well - almost like a domino effect.

Now if we're looking at Family B (same sample size), truly no homosexuals... it should stay that way, right? Perhaps mutations could occur, and as we all know this is the very basis of evolution. Once that individual develops a naturally occurring gay gene (from birth) does this greatly increase the chances of this person passing the gay gene to their offspring? Does this son or daughter do the same? The domino effect I'm picturing.

The higher population of homosexuals in any particular family tree, more homosexuals should occur, naturally, right? The higher population of heterosexuals in another family tree, more heterosexuals occur, naturally, right? I apologize for the rambling. If you didn't read all that, I don't blame you; I probably wouldn't have either.

Its not just me saying gay people are born gay.

THE ENTIRE GAY COMMUNITY SAYS THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY!

How the hell can you argue with a gay man telling him he chose to be gay?
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:24 PM   #152
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
I think this thread was born gay.
Lml
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:23 PM   #153
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
the study tells us specifically that-



typically a difference of 1 or 2%

so no, i dont think the article is suggesting that you can unquestionably identify a homosexual based on their brain shape.

Agreed. 1 or 2% isn't enough to convince me differences/similarities in brain shapes, sizes, etc. equates to one's sexual preference at birth, but I will say the scientific data in itself be it as minute as it may be, still says something. It's nothing rock-solid, but it shouldn't be ignored either.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:42 PM   #154
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpuente
Its not just me saying gay people are born gay.

THE ENTIRE GAY COMMUNITY SAYS THEY WERE BORN THAT WAY!

How the hell can you argue with a gay man telling him he chose to be gay?

Brugh, calm down. LOL, your exclamation marks, "how the hell'z" and ALL CAPS isn't helping you drive home your point. I didn't say being a homosexual was purely 100% a choice. I never claimed I know more about being gay than an actual homosexual man who claims he was.

All I was simply saying was there's a combination of genetics and social environment/life experiences together that determine one's sexual orientation. I never said what I claim is fact. I made it pretty clear I was sharing nothing more than my individual opinion.

I'll agree the vast majority of the gay community will claim they were born gay from the very second they were born. They were gay the exact moment of conception. I'll concur most will honestly believe that within their heart of hearts, but I sure as hell won't say as you put it THE ENTIRE GAY COMMUNITY! ... fair to say at least some (be it as few as it may be) play the "I was born this way!" card but deep within they're still confused and perhaps riding the wave of this homosexual revolution that's taking place right now... for what reason? Hell I don't know, LOL. To be a part of history ... to look back and tell their retirement home buddies "I was a part of that movement!" ... "I was there!" ... "we made change!" ... "we pushed the limits at a time when we were society's # 1 enemy!"

As silly as that shit sounds, I think there's some truth to some people "being gay" because of the attention they get from it. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind there are individuals out there (I've already admitted this is likely an incredibly small number, but don't you be closed minded by saying THERE'S NOT A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL OUT THERE WHO'D DO THIS") - individuals out there who play the gay card because it brings them attention. A conflicted, confused, frustrated teenager who hates his family, siblings, just hates everyone, and knows it'd haunt and upset everyone if he dropped the "hey everybody, I'm gay" bomb - again, good luck finding them, but best believe, they're on the map somewhere.

Inner city high schools are a breeding ground for young males being rebellious and having everyone think/believe they're gay, and YES for the simple fact there's a dump truck of attention that comes with it. Yes, I realize I'm using extreme unlikely rare examples, but they're out there nonetheless. I dated a girl (Leslie) who worked at such a high school and explained to me in such detail. Later in the year, dude stopped acting gay, went back to his what he was before wanna be gangsta shit talking about how he played the entire school. LOL'n all the way to the bank, pretending to be in # 1 stunna mode.

The point I'm making is not every single homosexual makes the claim they were born that way. It might take a little while to find a pool of examples, but yes, some gay individuals will tell you they made a personal decision to be gay, that they used to like/love women, but now they love/like men (for whatever reason), and that example is obviously way more commonplace with women. I'm just saying don't make generalizations that aren't entirely true, or I'll unfortunately be forced to throw out rare, yet true examples that debunk your claim.

Last edited by Hoodlum Science : 07-12-2013 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:14 PM   #155
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
there are pretty much endless examples of how gene expression can be influenced by an organisms environment, as you and joe already noted it starts for humans when we are still in the womb. i have never heard that gay men and women have differently shaped brains than their straight counterparts, but it is certainly possible that early life experiences could have an influence in the shape of a persons brain.
okay so if it is shown that the differences in brain shape are there at birth then would you say that it is in fact something that was given at birth and not because he was playing with mommy's lipstick as a child?
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:22 PM   #156
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Hoodlum, one of the main reasons I have trouble thinking it is mainly a nurture thing (obviously nurture can be found in some examples) is that I relate it to my own sexual well being.

I think about sex with women literally dozens of times through out any given day, and I don't for one second believe that it is the result of what society told me to think about...I think it is the result of my hormones I was born with being wired to want to impregnate women. I also don't think there is the slightest chance that ANYTHING in my childhood could change that, I think that I would like women NO MATTER WHAT...even if the rest of the male population in society liked men, I would still be the odd ball who thinks about women all the time.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:38 PM   #157
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Honestly, who cares? Some people are straight, some people are gay, and a few are somewhere in-between. Whatever goes on between consenting adults is their business, not anyone else's. It's 2013! Can we please move past narrow minded and petty judging of other people?
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:41 PM   #158
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
okay so if it is shown that the differences in brain shape are there at birth then would you say that it is in fact something that was given at birth and not because he was playing with mommy's lipstick as a child?

no. i would definitely not say that.

i would say the same thing that the scientists who did this research on brain size differences said -

Quote:
"These differences might be laid down during brain development in the womb, or they could happen after birth, though it could very likely be a combination of the two," said Savic.

Last edited by Nanners : 07-12-2013 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:25 AM   #159
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
no. i would definitely not say that.

i would say the same thing that the scientists who did this research on brain size differences said -
and what about this one who did the same research?

Quote:
Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.
"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.
The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.
"In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between gay women and straight men.
"This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."
I'm guessing you would not say the same as him, because it differs from your original beliefs
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:40 AM   #160
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by -p.tiddy-
and what about this one who did the same research?


I'm guessing you would not say the same as him, because it differs from your original beliefs

what do you say about the conclusion drawn by the people who did the research on brain size?

Quote:
"These differences might be laid down during brain development in the womb, or they could happen after birth, though it could very likely be a combination of the two," said Savic.

I am guessing you would not say the same as him, because it differs from your original beliefs
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:55 AM   #161
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

if a higher being decides that being gay is wrong and an error in humanity, then let that being pass judgement, who are we to say otherwise
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:02 AM   #162
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

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Originally Posted by bluechox2
if a higher being decides that being gay is wrong and an error in humanity, then let that being pass judgement, who are we to say otherwise


if jesus walked the earth today his message would be - forget about the tired hungry and sick, go round up all the gays and put a stop to them dirtying up the gene pool
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:20 PM   #163
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

I think there is another force at work here other than genetics or choice. It's spiritual. There are certain spiritual laws perpetually in existence that are in action regardless of a nation's laws or cultural fads of the time. Just like gravity, every single human being is subject to these spiritual laws. For instance, people who don't really acknowledge a higher power will nevertheless attribute certain events to "Karma" when referring to a baddie getting his just desserts seemingly unrelated to his past bad deeds.

Similarly, it is revealed in the Holy Bible that certain people who once believed in God but turned away from the faith were "turned over" to their ungodly lusts and to do unnatural acts of sodomy and gay rape, etc. So really once turned over to such things the gays become slaves to that behavior. They couldn't stop it if they tried. They no longer have a choice. This spiritual force is even stronger than genetics. The only thing that could stop it is repentance and divine intervention.

Another spiritual law is generational sin...i.e. God visits the sins of the fathers to their children, and to their children's children, unto the 3rd and 4th generations. So if a father fell away from the faith and was turned over to gay lust and sinned in abominable ways, then chances are that same sin/temptation will crop up in the flesh of their generational children assuming they ever actually mated with the opposite sex. Of course if their flaming homoedness actually prevents them from having normal heterosexual relations at all resulting in offsping, then their bloodline and also the sin stops there with their death and destruction.

I don't ever hear ANYONE talking about that perspective but it's the most plausible explanation that I can see.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:29 PM   #164
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Default Re: If people are really born gay..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadeFromDust
I think there is another force at work here other than genetics or choice. It's spiritual. There are certain spiritual laws perpetually in existence that are in action regardless of a nation's laws or cultural fads of the time. Just like gravity, every single human being is subject to these spiritual laws. For instance, people who don't really acknowledge a higher power will nevertheless attribute certain events to "Karma" when referring to a baddie getting his just desserts seemingly unrelated to his past bad deeds.

Similarly, it is revealed in the Holy Bible that certain people who once believed in God but turned away from the faith were "turned over" to their ungodly lusts and to do unnatural acts of sodomy and gay rape, etc. So really once turned over to such things the gays become slaves to that behavior. They couldn't stop it if they tried. They no longer have a choice. This spiritual force is even stronger than genetics. The only thing that could stop it is repentance and divine intervention.

Another spiritual law is generational sin...i.e. God visits the sins of the fathers to their children, and to their children's children, unto the 3rd and 4th generations. So if a father fell away from the faith and was turned over to gay lust and sinned in abominable ways, then chances are that same sin/temptation will crop up in the flesh of their generational children assuming they ever actually mated with the opposite sex. Of course if their flaming homoedness actually prevents them from having normal heterosexual relations at all resulting in offsping, then their bloodline and also the sin stops there with their death and destruction.

I don't ever hear ANYONE talking about that perspective but it's the most plausible explanation that I can see.
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