Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
right why use 82 games worth of data when we can look at a few playoff series especially considering you didn't even factor out how the Lakers and Bulls played against them
I still haven't seen a single ranking from the usual Jordanites.
Just the usual whining that defensive rating is somehow biased against the video game era of basketball.
Because this topic is about finals performances.
But Jordan's percentages (fg%, efg%, ts%) are all substantially above Kobe's despite always being his teams first option.
Even measures which normalise for era and negate era advantages in offense or defense by comparing players with their peers (such as PER) show Jordan as substantially better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Ever heard the phrase correlation does not equal causation?
Fair enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Slowest paced teams generally have better defensive rating because the other teams offense did not get an easy look at the basket early in the shot clock.
Evidence for this? How do you know that defense (and low DRtg) cause low pace and not vice-versa.
Typically offense rather than defense is considered the more influential on pace.
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Kobe gets ripped for his Finals FG%, but what about Bird? Bird played in an era of the highest FG% in NBA history, in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and about .485 on average...and shot .455 overall in his five Finals. His HIGHEST Finals FG% was .488, and he had series of .449, .445, and even .419. He played in 31 Finals' games, had 11 games below .399 (which was as many as he had above .499), and even had two below .299. And in his only game seven of his Finals' career, he shot 6-18.
Granted, Bird did other things, but he can't be claimed to be any more of a "winner" than Kobe, who holds a 5-3 edge in rings (and a 7-5 edge in Finals.)
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Kobe gets ripped for his Finals FG%, but what about Bird? Bird played in an era of the highest FG% in NBA history, in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and about .485 on average...and shot .455 overall in his five Finals. His HIGHEST Finals FG% was .488, and he had series of .449, .445, and even .419. He played in 31 Finals' games, had 11 games below .399 (which was as many as he had above .499), and even had two below .299.
Granted, Bird did other things, but he can't be claimed to be any more of a "winner" than Kobe, who holds a 5-3 edge in rings (and a 7-5 edge in Finals.)
FG% was higher in that era because of big men and less three point shots.
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Because this topic is about finals performances.
But Jordan's percentages (fg%, efg%, ts%) are all substantially above Kobe's despite always being his teams first option.
Even measures which normalise for era and negate era advantages in offense or defense by comparing players with their peers (such as PER) show Jordan as substantially better.
Jordan's numbers should be better, he faced weaker defenses. Even if you completely ignore the fact Jordan's era was inflated offensively. You don't need defensive rating to know that the outside of the Sonics none of the other defenses Jordan faced in the Finals compare to the average Kobe defense. That's the reason nobody has bothered to rank the defensive teams yet. Its a laughable comparison.
Quote:
Evidence for this? How do you know that defense (and low DRtg) cause low pace and not vice-versa.
Typically offense rather than defense is considered the more influential on pace.
It's common sense. Watch any great defense play. They are going to limit fast break opportunities and offensive teams are going to use more of the shot clock trying to come up with a good shot. A terrible defense is going to allow many fast break opportunities and the offensive team isn't going to need the entire shot clock to get a good shot off.
Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot : 06-10-2012 at 02:39 PM.
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAST Griffin
Okay.
How does that counter the point I just made?
Bird shot .455 in his five Finals, in leagues that shot .485 on average. Magic, a PG, shot .516 in his nine Finals, and against roughly the same league average.
Worthy, a SF, shot .533 overall in his six Finals.
BTW, in their three H2H Finals, Bird shot .460 overall, while Magic shot .533 and Worthy .575.
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Ever heard the phrase correlation does not equal causation?
Imagine a pick up game where you ran down and chuck up a shot at halfcourt repeatedly. Your pace is high , the opponents defensive rating would be low.
Now imagine a pick up game where you score an easy uncontested layup every time you touch the ball. The pace is high and the opponents defensive rating would be high.
Slowest paced teams generally have better defensive rating because the other teams offense did not get an easy look at the basket early in the shot clock.
Now imagine teleporting the 1991 Chicago Bulls to 2003 and playing a game against the Washington Wizards....who you got??
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlauber
Kobe gets ripped for his Finals FG%, but what about Bird? Bird played in an era of the highest FG% in NBA history, in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and about .485 on average...and shot .455 overall in his five Finals. His HIGHEST Finals FG% was .488, and he had series of .449, .445, and even .419. He played in 31 Finals' games, had 11 games below .399 (which was as many as he had above .499), and even had two below .299. And in his only game seven of his Finals' career, he shot 6-18.
Granted, Bird did other things, but he can't be claimed to be any more of a "winner" than Kobe, who holds a 5-3 edge in rings (and a 7-5 edge in Finals.)
Is your .455 number an average of season (finals) averages or his actual finals fg% (i.e. total finals makes divided by total finals shots)?
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
Jordan's numbers should be better, he faced weaker defenses. Even if you completely ignore the fact Jordan's era was inflated offensively. You don't need defensive rating to know that the outside of the Sonics none of the other defenses Jordan faced in the Finals compare to the average Kobe defense. That's the reason nobody has bothered to rank the defensive teams yet. Its a laughable comparison.
It's common sense. Watch any great defense play. They are going to limit fast break opportunities and offensive teams are going to use more of the shot clock trying to come up with a good shot. A terrible defense is going to allow many fast break opportunities and the offensive team isn't going to need the entire shot clock to get a good shot off.
Then you should have no problems seeing that the 1991 Chicago Bulls were a better defensive team than the 2003 Washington Wizards, right??
WATCH THE GAMES....then make a common sense basketball decision......
Re: Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??
