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Old 03-12-2007, 05:25 PM   #226
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by plupiter
This isn't a valid inference, it doesn't follow of necessity. What happens if the PG didn't guard the player that scored the points? Or if the defender was injured and gutting out the game? Or, simply that a great player got hot and no defender could do better on that given date.

But all that is beside the point, this game happened in '77 when Frazier was on the decline and no longer an all league defender anyway.
Actually, Frazier was still around 31, and putting 17ppg, and playing 35min per game. But I see what your saying, but still, I can't think of another GOAT who has the "Record" worst performance for what he is the GOAT at
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:31 PM   #227
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Psileas
Considering the 68-pt game by Pistol, I've read somewhere that Frazier played only 17 minutes that game. I can't verify this, but I hope to find this game in some torrant (I'm pretty sure it is online, since we have seen some highlights from this game on youtube).

It is online, my friend has the game on his hard drive, the torrent is most likely dead by now. I'll be sure to get it on a DVD and watch and analyze the game.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:34 PM   #228
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

And to exit this thread I'd like to say


Frazier also was a very good defender just like Payton. Sorry if everyone has gotten the wrong feeling in that I think Frazier wasn't a great defender because he was...

Is Payton a clear cut Number 1 and Frazier no.2? No, its very close...So I am giving Frazier ton of credit, and I guess you can say he can be tied with Payton as no.1. Haven't seen enough of him. So I'll say, I acknowledge Frazier and know he was a great defender.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:36 PM   #229
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

Charles Barkley once called Larry Bird the worst defender ever. Bird was a good team defender who came up with steals and a few blocks, but individually, he had trouble guarding people.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:38 PM   #230
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

barkley has no room to talk about no one's defense, the guy was so embarassingly pathetic on defense it was laughable.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:38 PM   #231
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by GMATCallahan
Charles Barkley once called Larry Bird the worst defender ever. Bird was a good team defender who came up with steals and a few blocks, but individually, he had trouble guarding people.


That's because Bird had absolutely no athleticism. He couldn't jump or run, but he had a sixth sense. He always knew where his other four teammates were. That's something you can't teach.
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Old 03-12-2007, 05:43 PM   #232
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Glove_20
You know what DreamRockets

I am done with you. You don't know ANYTHING about how these players played defense. Because you have no historic defensive knowledge at all. You talk out of your @ss way too much.

If not explain this post



A guy who thinks, Bird, Dr.J, Worthy, Marion, Gervin, Lanier, were all better defenders than Jerry West, has no CREDIBILITY AT ALL

And funny thing is, you can't back it up, so your just talking out of you @ss. I am not going to listen to anymore of your "whos the better defender" arguments, since you have no credibility at all, and the post above shows it


Julius Erving wasn't that bad of a defender statistically.
After 1973-1974
He has the most seasons with atleast 100 blocks and 100 steals (tied with Hakeem)

1 of 4 players to have a season with 200 steals and 100 blocks

Was in the top-ten in steals and blocks for 6 seasons (Current NBA record)
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:07 PM   #233
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by DreamRockets
barkley has no room to talk about no one's defense, the guy was so embarassingly pathetic on defense it was laughable.

True, but that's because he didn't put any effort into it. Barkley could play good defense, but he usually didn't bother, and that's one of the reasons why he failed to win a championship in Phoenix.

Danny Manning:

Late in a game against the Clippers, Charles isn’t having one of his stellar defensive performances and someone drives down to the basket. Flat footed, Charles just jumps up in front of the rim and puts his elbow above the rim to block someone’s shot. That to me proved that Charles could do whatever he wanted to out on the court. It was just a matter of him wanting to get it done.


http://www.nba.com/suns/news/barkley...s_manning.html

Paul Westphal:

He was notoriously bad at defending the pick-and-roll. We had five different ways to defend it and we’d ask him how he wanted to do it. He’d say one way and then it would happen in the game, and he would do it a different way. It would mess up our defense and the (opposing) team would score. So we’d call a timeout. We’d change it and do it a different way, and he’d do it the wrong way again, and mess it up again, and the other team would score. This happened throughout the whole game.

I remember one close game where we needed one stop to win the game, and we knew they were going to run the pick-and-roll, and they did. Charles defended it perfectly, stole the ball and we won the game. After the game, I remember he dropped by the coach’s office and there were a bunch of reporters and (other) people sitting around, and he stuck his head in and said, “Hey Coach, did you like the way I defended the pick-and-roll that last time?” I said, “Yeah, I loved it, Chuck.” He said, “I just want you to know something. I can play defense. I just don’t.” Then he laughed and walked out of the place. That’s kind of Charles in a nutshell.


http://www.nba.com/suns/news/barkley..._westphal.html

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Old 03-12-2007, 06:12 PM   #234
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

i know barkley had the tools to be a great defender if he wanted, emphasis on when he "wanted", shaq has the same problem, he could average 15 rebounds and 4 blocks in his career but he doesnt put the same effort on defense as he does on offense, barkley's size and speed in the perimeter would have allowed him to guard several positions, but as you said, he didn't.
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:19 PM   #235
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by Derek
That's because Bird had absolutely no athleticism. He couldn't jump or run, but he had a sixth sense. He always knew where his other four teammates were. That's something you can't teach.

True.
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:22 PM   #236
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Default Re: Top 5 Underrated Players of All-Time

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Originally Posted by DreamRockets
i know barkley had the tools to be a great defender if he wanted, emphasis on when he "wanted", shaq has the same problem, he could average 15 rebounds and 4 blocks in his career but he doesnt put the same effort on defense as he does on offense, barkley's size and speed in the perimeter would have allowed him to guard several positions, but as you said, he didn't.

And even though Shaq's effort could be lacking on defense, he was still much better than Barkley.
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