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Old 06-24-2012, 04:30 PM   #46
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Feel free to stop posting but there's nothing unfair in my description. He's not a go-to guy, he's someone who plays good d, rebounds, and can finish.

Jud Buechler was a role player.

Joakim Noah is a difference maker. Not a go-to guy, I agree. But a big man that hit the boards a double digit clip per game, hustle, play damn good defense, and finish.....that's a difference maker. Not to be confused with guys like Shane Battier and James Jones. Those are role players.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:30 PM   #47
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
He averaged 10, 10 and 1. It's not exactly a travesty.
Stats don't tell you that he lacked hustle, focus, and drive. He was not the Noah everyone knows, and it was hurting the team.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:33 PM   #48
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

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Originally Posted by Owl
I get that but still you trade down for multiple picks to someone in love with Robinson (or MKG or Beal).
Solid (and well paid) players aren't enough for a team in the Bobcats' position.

I agree that trying to turn one lottery pick into two is probably a better strategy, especially if they're in another draft that might have more evident star power, but they can do a whole lot worse than Joakim Noah if it comes to that. They really need to acquire as many as assets as possible and turn those into difference makers through trade. That's what Rich Chou is going to do.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:43 PM   #49
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

lol
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:44 PM   #50
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
Jud Buechler was a role player.

Joakim Noah is a difference maker. Not a go-to guy, I agree. But a big man that hit the boards a double digit clip per game, hustle, play damn good defense, and finish.....that's a difference maker. Not to be confused with guys like Shane Battier and James Jones. Those are role players.
You don't like how I worded it but what you described isn't much different from what I did. I never said he didn't matter. I see a guy like him as being worth a 8-10 pick. But #2 is where you try to get a real star.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:45 PM   #51
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

MJ has made some bad moves in the past but hd wouldn't even consider this.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:46 PM   #52
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu
Stats don't tell you that he lacked hustle, focus, and drive. He was not the Noah everyone knows, and it was hurting the team.
Let's say you're completely right in this post (and maybe you are). How does this help his case for making the ASG? I'd say it sounds more like he didn't get what he didn't deserve.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:48 PM   #53
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
You don't like how I worded it but what you described isn't much different from what I did. I never said he didn't matter. I see a guy like him as being worth a 8-10 pick. But #2 is where you try to get a real star.

#2 is where you want to get a real star. Like you said, MJ has proven to be a bad GM (which he isn't right now), so why not save yourself from yourself and take the sure thing. I see a number of really good players in this draft, but no one that I think couldn't let people down. If you can get Noah and another asset (future 1st rounder and/or another good player) for the #2, I think Charlotte has to think about it. If they don't make the playoffs again, they need think about doing the same thing next year. With the new CBA, teams are going to looking to keep their payroll down and good players will be available. Good players that might not consider signing with Charlotte if they were free agents.

Coincidentally, I don't see a whole lot of different between the #2 or 3 prospects in this draft and the #10 prospect.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:54 PM   #54
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
#2 is where you want to get a real star. Like you said, MJ has proven to be a bad GM (which he isn't right now), so why not save yourself from yourself and take the sure thing. I see a number of really good players in this draft, but no one that I think couldn't let people down. If you can get Noah and another asset (future 1st rounder and/or another good player) for the #2, I think Charlotte has to think about it. If they don't make the playoffs again, they need think about doing the same thing next year. With the new CBA, teams are going to looking to keep their payroll down and good players will be available. Good players that might not consider signing with Charlotte if they were free agents.

Coincidentally, I don't see a whole lot of different between the #2 or 3 prospects in this draft and the #10 prospect.
You can't base your strategy for building a team upon the firm belief you have no idea what you're doing. You have to put people in place whose judgment you have faith in and then let them do their jobs. How does a team that just set the record for futility take the second pick in the draft and use it to get someone who they know isn't a franchise player? That makes no sense whatsoever. "We're probably going to make a bad pick so let's just stay in the lottery every year and continue to make bad picks?"
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:03 PM   #55
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
You can't base your strategy for building a team upon the firm belief you have no idea what you're doing. You have to put people in place whose judgment you have faith in and then let them do their jobs. How does a team that just set the record for futility take the second pick in the draft and use it to get someone who they know isn't a franchise player? That makes no sense whatsoever. "We're probably going to make a bad pick so let's just stay in the lottery every year and continue to make bad picks?"

You are twisting my words.

I made it perfectly clear than they need to start making moves that keep them out of the lottery. One way to do that is to start adding good veteran players like Noah. Not more gambles like Harrison Barnes. Why should they not make a move because it doesn't seem right? That seems to be the whole argument here. The whole argument is "But you're supposed to get a star at #2!" and I already proven that that hasn't really happened over the past 12 years because the draft process is so wildly unpredictable. Do you think there is a franchise player there at #2? I sure don't.

Do they make the playoffs right away with Noah instead of the #2 pick? No. I'm not sure anyone in the NBA could push them into the playoffs by themselves. It's a building process. Doesn't happen overnight. Drafting year after year after year in the lottery hasn't worked, so why keep doing it? At least try something else. They had two top 10 picks on their team last year and had the worst record ever.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:05 PM   #56
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

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Originally Posted by fatboy11
#2 picks since 2000

2000 - Stromile Swift
2001 - Tyson Chandler
2002 - Jay Williams
2003 - Darko Milicic
2004 - Emeka Okafor
2005 - Marvin Williams
2006 - LaMarcus Aldridge
2007 - Kevin Durant
2008 - Michael Beasley
2009 - Hasheem Thabeet
2010 - Evan Turner
2011 - Derrick Williams


Here's my reasoning as to why you don't trade the #2 pick for Noah if you're the Charlotte Bobcats.

It's because you're at a point in the franchise where you need a go to guy, a franchise type player. Kemba Walker is an NCAA fan favorite and he had a nice rookie year, but he's not it. Gerald Henderson and Tyrus Thomas aren't it.

Taking a look at the past draft picks at #2, you can see there have been two go-to guys, maybe 3 or 4 depending if Turner and Williams can have breakout years. So assume around a 3 out of 12 chance or 25% chance that you have someone you can really build around with the #2 pick.

Personally, I take that chance over Noah. It's great that Noah's locked in for another four seasons, but who knows how happy Noah will be in Charlotte and if the clear drop in team chemistry will affect his game? But assuming it doesn't, we can say with near absolute certainty that Noah is not going to be a guy you build your team around. Realistically, Charlotte will be another team just fighting to make the playoffs every year. What's worse is they're not going to have an easy time attracting free agents. They will end up at best like the current Atlanta Hawks, at worst similar to Detroit.

You take that chance at #2 and bet it all if you're the Charlotte Bobcats. At least if I were a Bobcats fan, that's what I would like to see. Now if you're the Miami Heat, I would be comfortable trading even the #1 pick (if they had it) for Noah at this point since they are in such a win-now mode.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:09 PM   #57
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

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Originally Posted by InfiniteBaskets
Here's my reasoning as to why you don't trade the #2 pick for Noah if you're the Charlotte Bobcats.

It's because you're at a point in the franchise where you need a go to guy, a franchise type player. Kemba Walker is an NCAA fan favorite and he had a nice rookie year, but he's not it. Gerald Henderson and Tyrus Thomas aren't it.

Taking a look at the past draft picks at #2, you can see there have been two go-to guys, maybe 3 or 4 depending if Turner and Williams can have breakout years. So assume around a 3 out of 12 chance or 25% chance that you have someone you can really build around with the #2 pick.

Personally, I take that chance over Noah. It's great that Noah's locked in for another four seasons, but who knows how happy Noah will be in Charlotte and if the clear drop in team chemistry will affect his game? But assuming it doesn't, we can say with near absolute certainty that Noah is not going to be a guy you build your team around. Realistically, Charlotte will be another team just fighting to make the playoffs every year. What's worse is they're not going to have an easy time attracting free agents. They will end up at best like the current Atlanta Hawks, at worst similar to Detroit.

You take that chance at #2 and bet it all if you're the Charlotte Bobcats. At least if I were a Bobcats fan, that's what I would like to see. Now if you're the Miami Heat, I would be comfortable trading even the #1 pick (if they had it) for Noah at this point since they are in such a win-now mode.

Who do you draft at #2 that is a "go-to guy"?

Is Brad Beal really going to be any better than Gerald Henderson? Is Harrison Barnes a go-to guy? Thomas Robinson? MKG? Drummond????

I think Robinson is the go-to guy out of the group.

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Old 06-24-2012, 05:15 PM   #58
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
You are twisting my words.

I made it perfectly clear than they need to start making moves that keep them out of the lottery. One way to do that is to start adding good veteran players like Noah. Not more gambles like Harrison Barnes. Why should they not make a move because it doesn't seem right? That seems to be the whole argument here. The whole argument is "But you're supposed to get a star at #2!" and I already proven that that hasn't really happened over the past 12 years because the draft process is so wildly unpredictable. Do you think there is a franchise player there at #2? I sure don't.
You have a good shot at a franchise guy with the second pick. You have no shot at a franchise guy when you deal for Joakim Noah. Nothing was twisted, you clearly think that a solid roleplayer is more valuable than #2.

Quote:
Do they make the playoffs right away with Noah instead of the #2 pick? No. I'm not sure anyone in the NBA could push them into the playoffs by themselves. It's a building process. Doesn't happen overnight. Drafting year after year after year in the lottery hasn't worked, so why keep doing it? At least try something else. They had two top 10 picks on their team last year and had the worst record ever.
You're acting like there isn't an entire history of the NBA to show us how valuable draft picks can be. You're operating under the assumption that because Charlotte has done badly they are doomed to continue doing badly. If they have so little faith in their ability to scout talent they simply aren't in the right business. Because you aren't going to build a winner by trading high draft picks for role players. No team ever won a ring with no stars.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:16 PM   #59
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

I sure as hell wouldn't, but Michael Jordan is a retard so this trade will probably go down.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:20 PM   #60
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Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
Who do you draft at #2 that is a "go-to guy"?

Is Brad Beal really going to be any better than Gerald Henderson? Is Harrison Barnes a go-to guy? Thomas Robinson? MKG? Drummond????

I think Robinson is the go-to guy out of the group.

Anyone out of that group of four is fine. I like Drummond because he's got so much damn raw talent despite his poor performance in his first year at college. He reminds me of a Roy Hibbert. But even he ends up like Thabeet you end up back in the draft like OKC had done, and start over... until they change the draft process.
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