Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-24-2012, 06:28 PM   #61
fatboy11
NBA sixth man of the year
 
fatboy11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,963
fatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
You have a good shot at a franchise guy with the second pick. You have no shot at a franchise guy when you deal for Joakim Noah. Nothing was twisted, you clearly think that a solid roleplayer is more valuable than #2.

I'm think Noah is a very valuable player that's not where near being just a role player. I see a draft class that does not have strong star power. I think Noah makes Charlotte a better team and he doesn't make that much money. Adding Noah and Jimmy Butler (who I think will be a very good NBA player), you've made your team better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
You're acting like there isn't an entire history of the NBA to show us how valuable draft picks can be. You're operating under the assumption that because Charlotte has done badly they are doomed to continue doing badly. If they have so little faith in their ability to scout talent they simply aren't in the right business. Because you aren't going to build a winner by trading high draft picks for role players. No team ever won a ring with no stars.

I'm not operating under any assumption. I'm operating under the fact that the draft is wildly unpredictable. You told me that you should expect an All-NBA guy at #2. I posted the last 12 #2 picks and there were only 2 All-NBA guys among them. Those are a lot of let down expectations.

Joakim Noah is not a role player. James Jones is a role player. Noah is a borderline All-Star. If you don't see a franchise guy at #2, you look at deal the pick. Charlotte, for a fact, is looking to deal the pick. Even with Noah, they still have a good amount of cap space. Kemba Walker could end up being a great scorer in the NBA. Bismack Biyambo could end up being a great defensive force. Tyrus Thomas, with the right coaching, could be a valuable player. Adding Noah is adding a center that could be an All-Star some years with experience as a winner. He could make them good enough to have go-to players consider playing for the Bobcats. Or maybe they have a lottery pick in the another season even if they add him and think they can a franchise guy.

The difference between you and I is assumption. I am not assuming anything. I'm very much in consideration of the risk of the #2 pick not producing a franchise player. You seem to assume that the #2 pick is likely to produce a franchise player. I just can't make that assumption, and I think there is a good possibility a franchise guy isn't there at #2 this year. There are certainly better trades that could be made than picking up Joakim Noah, but it would not be a bad trade.
fatboy11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 06:42 PM   #62
Real Men Wear Green
Your ad here
 
Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton, MA
Posts: 20,601
Real Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableReal Men Wear Green is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
I'm think Noah is a very valuable player that's not where near being just a role player. I see a draft class that does not have strong star power. I think Noah makes Charlotte a better team and he doesn't make that much money. Adding Noah and Jimmy Butler (who I think will be a very good NBA player), you've made your team better.
We hear people talk about how the draft is lacking every year. The reality is we have a bunch of undeveloped 19-21 year-olds with plenty of room to grow.

Quote:
I'm not operating under any assumption. I'm operating under the fact that the draft is wildly unpredictable. You told me that you should expect an All-NBA guy at #2. I posted the last 12 #2 picks and there were only 2 All-NBA guys among them. Those are a lot of let down expectations.
And I pointed out that there were plenty of great players drafted after the #2 pick. A GM has the responsibility to make a major move with the second pick in the draft. A role player does not qualify.

Quote:
Joakim Noah is not a role player. James Jones is a role player. Noah is a borderline All-Star. If you don't see a franchise guy at #2, you look at deal the pick. Charlotte, for a fact, is looking to deal the pick. Even with Noah, they still have a good amount of cap space. Kemba Walker could end up being a great scorer in the NBA. Bismack Biyambo could end up being a great defensive force. Tyrus Thomas, with the right coaching, could be a valuable player. Adding Noah is adding a center that could be an All-Star some years with experience as a winner. He could make them good enough to have go-to players consider playing for the Bobcats. Or maybe they have a lottery pick in the another season even if they add him and think they can a franchise guy.
Charlotte is looking to deal if they can get a guy like Russell Westbrook, Rondo, Deron Williams, etc...a star. They are not looking to deal the pick for a guy that will be amongst the league leaders in rebounding due to the fact he gets to go after the bricks being fired every night by non-franchise players. The #2 pick is supposed to change a franchise. That is arguably the worst team in NBA history, this pick is their big chance and you think they should blow it on a nonscoring pf/c? No chance. Kemba Walker a great scorer? He just averaged 12 points on 36% shooting. He should do better with experience and a real franchise player to play off of but I have no idea what you saw in him that makes you think he's going to carry an offense that isn't utter garbage. I paid no attention to Biyombo so I won't comment on him but if you insist on saying Tyrus Thomas could still break out then I'm going to have to insist on his first name being changed to Tim. The door is closed, he is who he is.
Real Men Wear Green is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 06:44 PM   #63
CelticBaller
lite kobe
 
CelticBaller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: minus the raping and chucking
Posts: 15,341
CelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterCelticBaller is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaininTwos
Hey Michael, would you trade the #2 pick for Noah?

this
CelticBaller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 06:52 PM   #64
fatboy11
NBA sixth man of the year
 
fatboy11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,963
fatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
We hear people talk about how the draft is lacking every year. The reality is we have a bunch of undeveloped 19-21 year-olds with plenty of room to grow.

Some years, yes. Some years, no. Depends on the talent pool.

No one is saying these players can't grow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
And I pointed out that there were plenty of great players drafted after the #2 pick. A GM has the responsibility to make a major move with the second pick in the draft. A role player does not qualify.

I agree that there is a responsibility to make a major move with the 2nd pick, but we're not discussing role players so that comment is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Charlotte is looking to deal if they can get a guy like Russell Westbrook, Rondo, Deron Williams, etc...a star. They are not looking to deal the pick for a guy that will be amongst the league leaders in rebounding due to the fact he gets to go after the bricks being fired every night by non-franchise players. The #2 pick is supposed to change a franchise. That is arguably the worst team in NBA history, this pick is their big chance and you think they should blow it on a nonscoring pf/c? No chance.

No one is going to trade Deron Williams, Rondo, or Westbrook for the #2 pick in this draft. That backs up my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Kemba Walker a great scorer? He just averaged 12 points on 36% shooting. He should do better with experience and a real franchise player to play off of but I have no idea what you saw in him that makes you think he's going to carry an offense that isn't utter garbage.

He's played one year in the NBA and had no help. He had a tough rookie season. You can be a great scoring guard and not be a franchise player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
I paid no attention to Biyombo so I won't comment on him but if you insist on saying Tyrus Thomas could still break out then I'm going to have to insist on his first name being changed to Tim. The door is closed, he is who he is.

Where did I insist or even claim that Tyrus Thomas could still "break out"? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said he could be "valuable" and there are degrees to being valuable. He has talent and ability.
fatboy11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 06:55 PM   #65
tomkiddo91
Kids at the park dunk on me
 
tomkiddo91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 204
tomkiddo91 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

One of the stupider threads on ISH not involving LeBron or Kobe.
tomkiddo91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 07:26 PM   #66
Owl
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,503
Owl is popular on this boardOwl is popular on this boardOwl is popular on this boardOwl is popular on this board
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy11
You are twisting my words.

I made it perfectly clear than they need to start making moves that keep them out of the lottery. One way to do that is to start adding good veteran players like Noah. Not more gambles like Harrison Barnes. Why should they not make a move because it doesn't seem right? That seems to be the whole argument here. The whole argument is "But you're supposed to get a star at #2!" and I already proven that that hasn't really happened over the past 12 years because the draft process is so wildly unpredictable. Do you think there is a franchise player there at #2? I sure don't.

Do they make the playoffs right away with Noah instead of the #2 pick? No. I'm not sure anyone in the NBA could push them into the playoffs by themselves. It's a building process. Doesn't happen overnight. Drafting year after year after year in the lottery hasn't worked, so why keep doing it? At least try something else. They had two top 10 picks on their team last year and had the worst record ever.
I'd argue with this. They don't need solid expensive players who make them adequate. They were an adequate team with an Wallace, Okafor, Felton core with later additions J Rich and S Jax and Chandler. The reason they failed by being consistently in the lottery is that they never bottomed out. After Okafor they rarely picked at a high enough position to get an elite talent (once picking third and wasting the pick on Adam Morrisson), they were stuck in mediocrity treadmill that rarely works out well (an exception would be Indiana who picked tremendously well getting Paul George and Hibbert in the 10-20 range). The problem wasn't being bad, it was being committed to a core that whilst by no means good, wasn't bad enough.

They need to be bad for a number of years (a la OKC or to a lesser extent mid 80s Bulls when 23 teams meant you could have a losing record, sneak into the playoffs and still get a top 10 pick, though Krause also dealt for a lot of picks) not have anyone who makes you too good too quickly (OKC were fortunate that especially Durant, but also Westbrook and Harden weren't great straight away, and yes, Durant won RoY but he didn't deserve it and shot awfully) and frankly gamble on acquiring picks and young talent. Noah's contract is also expensive (not bad, but not especially good) relative to those that can be given since the lockout.

Noah is what he is, he's very solid if injury prone, low mistake, good defender good rebounder, who's a great fit for an already talented team. His defensive value would be lessened on a bad team because he's a smart defender within a system rather than a shot changing, game changing, don't bring it in the lane impact defender (a la Russell, Mutombo, Wallace, Olajuwon, Robinson or even Bradley, Bol or Eaton) and with bad teammates having one guy playing smart D doesn't make much of a difference (on growing team with a good coach maybe, but not a team at the very bottom).
Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 07:32 PM   #67
innervisions
Can barely lace up my sneakers
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 30
innervisions has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

I think Robinson will be the pick here, and while he's probably not an all-NBA guy like a Durant or an Aldridge at that spot, I think he will be very good.

There is no reason to suspect that Charlotte would be interested in a guy like Noah. Noah isn't a role player - he is a fringe All-Star who averages double-doubles and plays great defense - but his value is highest in a defensive system and in a situation where there is other talent around him. He is perfect for the Bulls and the Bulls are perfect for him. Noah is not an especially valuable asset for Charlotte - they need franchise-level talent before they go for guys like Noah who can be the glue for top-level teams.

I think Charlotte would be open to dealing the #2, but I think they'd be looking to get more picks. This is a really interesting draft with a lot of talent (and not a lot of sure-things) - there will be potential All-Stars drafted outside the lottery. They need help everywhere, so this might make sense. But I think Robinson will be the pick in the end.
innervisions is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 07:34 PM   #68
fatboy11
NBA sixth man of the year
 
fatboy11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,963
fatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
I'd argue with this. They don't need solid expensive players who make them adequate. They were an adequate team with an Wallace, Okafor, Felton core with later additions J Rich and S Jax and Chandler. The reason they failed by being consistently in the lottery is that they never bottomed out. After Okafor they rarely picked at a high enough position to get an elite talent (once picking third and wasting the pick on Adam Morrisson), they were stuck in mediocrity treadmill that rarely works out well (an exception would be Indiana who picked tremendously well getting Paul George and Hibbert in the 10-20 range). The problem wasn't being bad, it was being committed to a core that whilst by no means good, wasn't bad enough.

They need to be bad for a number of years (a la OKC or to a lesser extent mid 80s Bulls when 23 teams meant you could have a losing record, sneak into the playoffs and still get a top 10 pick, though Krause also dealt for a lot of picks) not have anyone who makes you too good too quickly (OKC were fortunate that especially Durant, but also Westbrook and Harden weren't great straight away, and yes, Durant won RoY but he didn't deserve it and shot awfully) and frankly gamble on acquiring picks and young talent. Noah's contract is also expensive (not bad, but not especially good) relative to those that can be given since the lockout.

Noah is what he is, he's very solid if injury prone, low mistake, good defender good rebounder, who's a great fit for an already talented team. His defensive value would be lessened on a bad team because he's a smart defender within a system rather than a shot changing, game changing, don't bring it in the lane impact defender (a la Russell, Mutombo, Wallace, Olajuwon, Robinson or even Bradley, Bol or Eaton) and with bad teammates having one guy playing smart D doesn't make much of a difference (on growing team with a good coach maybe, but not a team at the very bottom).

I can't really argue with much of this. You raise some good points (especially the point about his defensive impact being lessened) and didn't act like Noah was laughable.
fatboy11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 07:36 PM   #69
fatboy11
NBA sixth man of the year
 
fatboy11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,963
fatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected posterfatboy11 is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by innervisions
I think Robinson will be the pick here, and while he's probably not an all-NBA guy like a Durant or an Aldridge at that spot, I think he will be very good.

There is no reason to suspect that Charlotte would be interested in a guy like Noah. Noah isn't a role player - he is a fringe All-Star who averages double-doubles and plays great defense - but his value is highest in a defensive system and in a situation where there is other talent around him. He is perfect for the Bulls and the Bulls are perfect for him. Noah is not an especially valuable asset for Charlotte - they need franchise-level talent before they go for guys like Noah who can be the glue for top-level teams.

I think Charlotte would be open to dealing the #2, but I think they'd be looking to get more picks. This is a really interesting draft with a lot of talent (and not a lot of sure-things) - there will be potential All-Stars drafted outside the lottery. They need help everywhere, so this might make sense. But I think Robinson will be the pick in the end.

I agree. I think if they keep the pick, they have to take Robinson. I think he's a Boozer-type impact player (not Boozer stylistically). I think, at his best, he could put up good numbers but have his noticeable drawbacks.
fatboy11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2012, 08:12 PM   #70
Kurosawa0
NBA rookie of the year
 
Kurosawa0's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,689
Kurosawa0 has no real reputation yet.
Default Re: Would You Do the #2 for Joakim Noah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkiddo91
One of the stupider threads on ISH not involving LeBron or Kobe.

Actually it seems to have spawned a pretty good debate.
Kurosawa0 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:09 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy