Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-28-2012, 10:32 PM   #151
D.J.
College superstar
 
D.J.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Astoria, NY
Posts: 4,996
D.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputation
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
barkley's highest mvp rank was top 3 once, in 1993.


Barkley was runner up in 1990.
D.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 01:27 AM   #152
ShaqAttack3234
7-time NBA All-Star
 
ShaqAttack3234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 12,992
ShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
and why are you mentioning only 1 series? overall he averaged 14.8ppg, 2.9apg, 13.6apg, and 2.1spg. including a masterful 16.0ppg, 3.6rpg, 16.0apg, 2.0spg series against the la clippers, and 14.2ppg, 3.2rpg, 14.0apg, 3.2spg series against gary payton and the seattle supersonics.

1 series? It's the series that prevented them from getting to the finals. Due to Malone having one of the best series of his career, they had a chance to upset the favored and more talent Blazers, if Stockton had played close to his usual level, but he didn't. And to make matters worse, Porter completely outplayed him, despite not being as good of a player as Stockton in general. I expect much more from a top 10 player in the game.

His seattle series was nothing special, imo, and you forgot to add that he shot 43% in it. Utah won that series primarily because of Karl Malone's dominance and Jeff Malone's 22 ppg on 54% didn't hurt either. The 2 Malones averaged about 52 ppg between them.

Even for the entire run, Stockton's scoring average dropped 1 ppg from the season and assists were about the same, but his shooting % dropped from 48% to 42%, so his overall playoff numbers were worse, but that's not all you have to look at.

Quote:
again, 1 series. the jazz made the conference finals again, 1 out of only 4 teams to do so, and lost to the eventual champion, and much stronger houston rockets.

they shouldn't have even been in the wcf in the first place, but they destroyed the powerful san antonio spurs in 4 games in the first round without home court advantage, then defeated the team that just got done beating the team with the best record in the nba, all while jeff hornacek was still getting used to his new surroundings.

The Jazz made the conference finals, but once again, Stockton coming up small prevented them from making that series more competitive. Granted, Malone didn't have the best series either(he had food poisoning, iirc), but Malone's improved all around game was the main reason Utah had as much success as they did.

Even for the entire playoffs, Stockton's scoring dropped a bit, assists dropped from nearly 13 per game to not even 10, and his shooting % dropped from almost 53% in the season to a little under 46%.

This, much like '92 qualifies as a playoff failure under my definition, which is losing while playing noticeably below your usual level.

The main reason they beat the Spurs was because Karl Malone shut down David Robinson. The Spurs had a pretty good team around Robinson, but most of them played poorly in the series too.

And that's not some incredible team on paper. Plus they had a joke of a head coach in John Lucas. They overachieved to get 55 wins primarily because David Robinson was a dominant regular season player

Quote:
one series and another wcf appearance 1 of only 4 teams to do so defeated the san antonio spurs again without homecourt advantage.

stockton didn't have a particularily good wcf, but a main reason behind that was due to him being matched up with the best point guard in the nba, and also one of the best defenders in the league. stockton was only a top 3 point guard by this stage. but lets have a look at what he did in the first 2 rounds:

against portland: 14.2ppg, 2.4rpg, 14.4apg, 1.8spg
against san antonio: 9.8ppg, 4.3rpg, 11.7apg, 1.3spg (no homecourt advantage)

Malone was easily Utah's best player and the MVP of the Spurs series. He once again shut down Robinson, and much like the '94 series, most of Robinson's teammates followed his lead and played like shit.

I covered his terrible WCF which alone makes it a failure, but even for the entire playoffs, Stockton's scoring dropped almost 4 ppg,his assists dropped and his FG% plummeted from almost 54% to under 46%.

By the way, Penny was the best PG.

Quote:
beside points and blocks, barkley decreased in every way. his assists and steals were more than halved, and his rebounding was decreased by 2 per game, along with the drop in field goal percent.

I don't care about his steals numbers decreasing in the last and a small drop in FG% is normal from the regular season to the playoffs.

Quote:
the main reason they had a chance to beat a superior opponent was because the players around barkley stepped up more.

The main reason they had a chance to beat a superior opponent is because Barkley's level of play was high in general with the only blemishes being his missed FT in game 3 and the elimination game.

Quote:
they got swept in the first round. barkley, again, was nowhere near where the sixers needed him to be

Nowhere near the player they needed him to be? You see how close each game was? Barkley playing like a superstar and elite player is why they had a chance to win all 3 games vs a better team.

Quote:
still a top 2 power forward and one of the best 12 players on the planet.

Even if that was true(which it's not), that would only show how remarkable of a player Barkley was in his prime to decline so much and still be that good. But '97 Barkley is nowhere near representative of how good Barkley was during his prime, so it's simply not really a factor for me when ranking him.

Quote:
thats funny, considering i have rose over kidd in that argument. gary payton was the best point guard in '99, '00, and '01.

it was close between Kidd and Payton all 3 years, so I don't have a problem with you taking Payton.

Quote:
it was kidd from '02-'04, and '07.

at '07. Nash was by far the best PG and a top 3 player in the entire league behind only Kobe and Duncan. Kidd probably had his best season since '04 and was a top 4 PG behind Nash, Arenas and Baron.

Quote:
pierce wasn't even top 2 on the celtics roster. no way pierce wins finals mvp with his 18/5/3 on 44%fg, especially when rondo is getting 14/6/8/2, including a nice 19/12/10/2 triple double in their game 2 win. kg also probably outplayed pierce in the finals.

It's tough to compare these 3 players impact considering how different they were. None of these 3 really had a standout series in the finals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
kidd was alot closer to nowitzki as the mavs best player than any other player was to kidd himself

There is no sort of argument that can be made to support this.

Quote:
barkley's highest mvp rank was top 3 once, in 1993. stockton's highest mvp rank was top 3 in 3 years: 1989, 1991, and 1992.

Barkley was voted MVP in '93, finished 2nd in '90 and would have finished 1st had it not been for several voters leaving him off his ballot. I would have gone with Hakeem in '93 and Jordan in '90, though.

Stockton's highest MVP finish was 7th in '89, he never even had the most MVP votes on his own team.

Quote:
a top 2 center, and top 5 overall player wasn't enough , throw in a top 2 shooting guard? still not enough


As I said, I don't really care what '97 Barkley did.

Quote:
he was much more effective in 1982 in his youth. he only added those things because he was getting old and losing his physical abilities.

he wasn't more effective with such a limited half court skill set. He added an outside shot because it's a basic thing for a perimeter player to have, and he added a post game to became a truly great half court player and take his game to the next level. He couldn't have made the transition to 1st option in '87 and succeeded had he not added to his game.

He didn't add those things when he got old. He started adding the outside shot around '84-'85 when he was only about 24-25 and not even in his prime. He added the post game in '87 when he was only 27, an age when most players are in or near their peaks, and still have several prime years left.

Quote:
larry bird and magic johnson were the best 2 players from the regular season after leading their respective teams to the best 2 records in the nba. moses malone dropped from 3rd in the regular season to 5th after the playoffs due to his poor individual, and team showing in the post season. the houston rockets bowed out in the first round, winning only 1 game, and the losing margin being 15, and 21 points in the losses. moses dropped 7 points, and dropped 9 percentage points off his field goals, he also did not manage to block a shot per game, in fact he averaged 3 times more turnovers than blocks for the series.

Nobody did anything comparable to Moses in the regular season that year. I liked other player's skill sets better such as Kareem, Bird and possibly Dr. J, but I can't argue with Malone's dominance.

I'm aware of his disappointing playoff series, but Malone ended up such a clear number 1 for the regular season, especially when nobody else really had an outstanding year by best player standards that the playoff disappointment is nowhere near enough to drop him below his number 1 spot. Particularly in a 3 game mini-series, which was an idiotic format. talk about a small sample size.

Quote:
i'm sorry, what does this quote prove?

It's Magic talking about the Lakers becoming his team in '87 at Pat Riley's request after having been Kareem's team for all of the years before.

You said Magic and Riley would agree with you, I proved you wrong.

Quote:
but the ball was in his hands alot more, or there was the opportunity to be in his hands, so there was more than ample opportunity to step up his scoring.

Actually, it wasn't. Pippen didn't become any more ball-dominant after '92. In fact, he may have been less since running the offense and facilitating was split up more. The Bulls also relied on executing the triangle offense even more with less talent in '94 which also prevented ball-dominance.
ShaqAttack3234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 05:24 AM   #153
PP34Deuce
Good college starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,328
PP34Deuce has decent reputationPP34Deuce has decent reputation
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

The funny thing is all of you guys are googling stats to downplay certain players to make your point.

Personally I dont thibk you need 9 pages of stats.

Malone was better defensively and disciplined. lead by example but could not carry a team consistently.

Barkley could do everything offensively and more dynamic. When barkley had big games there were high assists involves. Hes also charismatic and you can build around him.

for that I would choose barkley who could score against any defender and be your point forward.
PP34Deuce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 03:04 PM   #154
amfirst
Great college starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,612
amfirst has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Malone is better and I actually watched them both in their prime, not just look up stats.
amfirst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 07:00 PM   #155
Round Mound
NBA lottery pick
 
Round Mound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,280
Round Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Barkley was Better I Saw Both Play In Their Primes Also.

Barkley Was Better from 1985 to 1995...Then Malone Took Over as Barkley Declined Through Back and Knee Injuries and Lost His Explosivness and Leaping Ability
Round Mound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 05:45 AM   #156
Shep
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,575
Shep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
1 series? It's the series that prevented them from getting to the finals. Due to Malone having one of the best series of his career, they had a chance to upset the favored and more talent Blazers, if Stockton had played close to his usual level, but he didn't. And to make matters worse, Porter completely outplayed him, despite not being as good of a player as Stockton in general. I expect much more from a top 10 player in the game.
lol@malone having one of the best series of his career when he had better series' in the previous 2 rounds let alone his career. in any case malone did outplay stockton in 2 of 3 series in that playoff, but he was getting outplayed by karl malone here who was the best power forward in the nba, and a top 8 player overall, he wasn't getting outplayed by maurice cheeks.
Quote:
His seattle series was nothing special, imo, and you forgot to add that he shot 43% in it. Utah won that series primarily because of Karl Malone's dominance and Jeff Malone's 22 ppg on 54% didn't hurt either. The 2 Malones averaged about 52 ppg between them.
what a joke. stockton was the mvp and best player in that series.
Quote:
Even for the entire run, Stockton's scoring average dropped 1 ppg from the season and assists were about the same, but his shooting % dropped from 48% to 42%, so his overall playoff numbers were worse, but that's not all you have to look at.
atleast stockton made the playoffs at all
Quote:
The Jazz made the conference finals, but once again, Stockton coming up small prevented them from making that series more competitive. Granted, Malone didn't have the best series either(he had food poisoning, iirc), but Malone's improved all around game was the main reason Utah had as much success as they did.

Even for the entire playoffs, Stockton's scoring dropped a bit, assists dropped from nearly 13 per game to not even 10, and his shooting % dropped from almost 53% in the season to a little under 46%.
malone was the jazz' best player by this point. and althought stockton's numbers were down, he still contributed to a winning team and only 3 other teams made it that far. much better than putting up your normal numbers and getting swept in the first round.
Quote:
This, much like '92 qualifies as a playoff failure under my definition, which is losing while playing noticeably below your usual level.
each to their own definition. playoff failure in my definition is losing in the first round while not stepping up at all, and getting outplayed by role players. i'd much rather win 2 series and then lose in the conference finals than get swept in the first round playing subpar or not make the playoffs at all.
Quote:
The main reason they beat the Spurs was because Karl Malone shut down David Robinson. The Spurs had a pretty good team around Robinson, but most of them played poorly in the series too.

And that's not some incredible team on paper. Plus they had a joke of a head coach in John Lucas. They overachieved to get 55 wins primarily because David Robinson was a dominant regular season player
the jazz made the conference finals for the second time in their 20 year history and john stockton was their second best player in the regular season and playoffs. much better than getting swept in the first round.
Quote:
Malone was easily Utah's best player and the MVP of the Spurs series. He once again shut down Robinson, and much like the '94 series, most of Robinson's teammates followed his lead and played like shit.

I covered his terrible WCF which alone makes it a failure, but even for the entire playoffs, Stockton's scoring dropped almost 4 ppg,his assists dropped and his FG% plummeted from almost 54% to under 46%.
malone was clearly the jazz' best player in 1996 so being mvp of a series means little. the best players on teams usually are the mvp of the playoffs except for some anomalies like hersey hawkins being the mvp for the sixers, and mo cheeks as well in separate series.
Quote:
By the way, Penny was the best PG.
penny was second, behind gary payton
Quote:
I don't care about his steals numbers decreasing

Quote:
and a small drop in FG% is normal from the regular season to the playoffs.
so you agree it dropped
Quote:
The main reason they had a chance to beat a superior opponent is because Barkley's level of play was high in general with the only blemishes being his missed FT in game 3 and the elimination game.
generally it wasn't high enough, and while others were able to step up to the occasion, barkley was not.
Quote:
Nowhere near the player they needed him to be? You see how close each game was? Barkley playing like a superstar and elite player is why they had a chance to win all 3 games vs a better team.
actually mo cheeks stepping up and outplaying barkley was the reason why they had a chance.
Quote:
Even if that was true(which it's not)

Quote:
that would only show how remarkable of a player Barkley was in his prime to decline so much and still be that good. But '97 Barkley is nowhere near representative of how good Barkley was during his prime, so it's simply not really a factor for me when ranking him.
decline so much yet he was still better than he was the previous year, and every year bar 3 before 1993
Quote:
at '07. Nash was by far the best PG and a top 3 player in the entire league behind only Kobe and Duncan. Kidd probably had his best season since '04 and was a top 4 PG behind Nash, Arenas and Baron.
nash was top 7 overall in 2007. as for kobe in the top 3? kobe wasn't even in the top 18. and after kidd and nash, the best point guards were baron davis, and tony parker.
Quote:
There is no sort of argument that can be made to support this.
no argument can be made for any of your clains so far in this thread.
Quote:
Barkley was voted MVP in '93
he was actually third most valuable that year
Quote:
finished 2nd in '90
wasn't even top 7
Quote:
I would have gone with Hakeem in '93 and Jordan in '90, though.
these are the correct choices.
Quote:
Stockton's highest MVP finish was 7th in '89, he never even had the most MVP votes on his own team
he was actually third in 3 years: 1989, 1991, and 1992.
Quote:
As I said, I don't really care what '97 Barkley did.

Quote:
he wasn't more effective with such a limited half court skill set. He added an outside shot because it's a basic thing for a perimeter player to have, and he added a post game to became a truly great half court player and take his game to the next level. He couldn't have made the transition to 1st option in '87 and succeeded had he not added to his game.

He didn't add those things when he got old. He started adding the outside shot around '84-'85 when he was only about 24-25 and not even in his prime. He added the post game in '87 when he was only 27, an age when most players are in or near their peaks, and still have several prime years left.
magic did what his team needed him to do. in 1982 the lakers had 6 players in double digits averaging almost 110 between those guys. it would be no point in him scoring all these points, infact it would be to the detriment of the team. instead he rebounded better than he ever did in his entire career, did an outstanding job forcing turnovers (league leader in steals), shot the ball at 54%, and added 9.5 assists as a 2 guard. he did have a post game, although not as polished as it was later one in his career, but once again, he did not need this at that point as he was able to dominate, be the best player on the floor and eventually be the best in the league by the end of the playoffs.
Quote:
Nobody did anything comparable to Moses in the regular season that year. I liked other player's skill sets better such as Kareem, Bird and possibly Dr. J, but I can't argue with Malone's dominance.
bird and magic had the better regular season.
Quote:
I'm aware of his disappointing playoff series, but Malone ended up such a clear number 1 for the regular season, especially when nobody else really had an outstanding year by best player standards that the playoff disappointment is nowhere near enough to drop him below his number 1 spot. Particularly in a 3 game mini-series, which was an idiotic format. talk about a small sample size.
bird and magic already were better before the playoffs had started. erving was very close behind, kareem was a bit behind but then he helps the lakers dominate the playoffs, only losing 2 games in the process. this makes kareem easily better than malone. and erving gets past larry bird and makes the nba finals, making it an easy decision as to who were the best 4 players that year, infact it was closer between malone and robert parish than it was between malone and any of those 4.
Quote:
It's Magic talking about the Lakers becoming his team in '87 at Pat Riley's request after having been Kareem's team for all of the years before.

You said Magic and Riley would agree with you, I proved you wrong.
his team meaning number 1 offensive option. he was the best player on that team since 1982
Quote:
Actually, it wasn't. Pippen didn't become any more ball-dominant after '92. In fact, he may have been less since running the offense and facilitating was split up more. The Bulls also relied on executing the triangle offense even more with less talent in '94 which also prevented ball-dominance.
the opportunity was there to be more ball dominant if he wasn't. and he could have been much more of a scorer, especially since the number 1 scorer in the league was no longer there.
Shep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:13 AM   #157
TheBigVeto
Negging Me Is Gay
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,173
TheBigVeto has a bad reputationTheBigVeto has a bad reputationTheBigVeto has a bad reputationTheBigVeto has a bad reputation
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Malone used to be better than Barkley.
Then he joined the Lakers.
Automatically he becomes worse than Barkley.
TheBigVeto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:19 AM   #158
Deuce Bigalow
5-time NBA All-Star
 
Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,597
Deuce Bigalow has a terrific reputationDeuce Bigalow has a terrific reputationDeuce Bigalow has a terrific reputationDeuce Bigalow has a terrific reputationDeuce Bigalow has a terrific reputation
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
Quote:
at '07. Nash was by far the best PG and a top 3 player in the entire league behind only Kobe and Duncan.
as for kobe in the top 3? kobe wasn't even in the top 18
Quote:
Barkley was voted MVP in '93
he was actually third most valuable that year


Deuce Bigalow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 06:33 AM   #159
tomtucker
Prince of Wallachia
 
tomtucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,290
tomtucker is popular on this boardtomtucker is popular on this boardtomtucker is popular on this boardtomtucker is popular on this board
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

charles barkley was and is, a fucking asshole......arrogant bastard ......why is this fool on TV.....?....Shaq wants to beat him up everytime they are on the same show
tomtucker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2012, 02:24 AM   #160
ShaqAttack3234
7-time NBA All-Star
 
ShaqAttack3234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 12,992
ShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Barkley Was Better from 1985 to 1995...Then Malone Took Over as Barkley Declined Through Back and Knee Injuries and Lost His Explosivness and Leaping Ability

Barkley was better from '86-'93, except for '92. But Malone surpassed him in '94 due to Chuck's back problems and decline and Malone improving his own skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
lol@malone having one of the best series of his career when he had better series' in the previous 2 rounds let alone his career. in any case malone did outplay stockton in 2 of 3 series in that playoff, but he was getting outplayed by karl malone here who was the best power forward in the nba, and a top 8 player overall, he wasn't getting outplayed by maurice cheeks.

Considering what he did against Buck Williams, it's definitely up there. I never said his '92 WCF was his best series for sure, just that it's one of his best.

Malone was anywhere from a top 2-4 player, and Barkley never got outplayed by Mo Cheeks except for his rookie year.

Quote:
what a joke. stockton was the mvp and best player in that series.

Yeah, that is quite a joke you told.

Quote:
atleast stockton made the playoffs at all


Ah, the benefits of being a sidekick.

Quote:
malone was the jazz' best player by this point. and althought stockton's numbers were down, he still contributed to a winning team and only 3 other teams made it that far. much better than putting up your normal numbers and getting swept in the first round.

Malone was always better than him.

If you lose in an earlier round, but play at your usual level, it usually means you came to play, but aren't on a contending team. To me, that is not a playoff failure. But in Stockton's case, he was on a contending team, didn't come to play in the series he got eliminated in, and that is a playoff failure to me. I wasn't overly impressed with his play up to that point either.

Quote:
each to their own definition. playoff failure in my definition is losing in the first round while not stepping up at all, and getting outplayed by role players. i'd much rather win 2 series and then lose in the conference finals than get swept in the first round playing subpar or not make the playoffs at all.

Barkley doesn't get outplayed by role players.

Quote:
the jazz made the conference finals for the second time in their 20 year history and john stockton was their second best player in the regular season and playoffs. much better than getting swept in the first round.

Key word, second best player. Barkley didn't have that luxury other than his rookie year and his real decline years in Houston.

Quote:
malone was clearly the jazz' best player in 1996 so being mvp of a series means little. the best players on teams usually are the mvp of the playoffs except for some anomalies like hersey hawkins being the mvp for the sixers, and mo cheeks as well in separate series.

Malone had clearly been Utah's best player for a while.

Quote:
penny was second, behind gary payton

Nah, they were relatively close, but Penny's offense was significantly better, imo. Payton was clearly the better defender and the gap in their defense was bigger than offense, but offense is more important at the point guard position. Penny finished 3rd in MVP voting, and led the team to a 20-8 record without Shaq, including a 17-5 start when he was averaging 26.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 6.8 apg, 2 spg, 50.3 FG%, 62.2 TS% showing what he could do as the man.

Payton's defense was clearly better as I mentioned, both help/team defense and man to man defense. But Penny's passing and court vision impressed me more, his mid-range game was better, imo and he was much bigger and much more athletic making him a greater threat driving to the basket and finishing. Just the better overall scorer and passer/playmaker to me.

Quote:
so you agree it dropped

Yes, and I don't care for the reason I already stated.

Quote:
generally it wasn't high enough, and while others were able to step up to the occasion, barkley was not.

Barkley's series was impressive to me, especially for a 3rd year player. It doesn't alter his ranking on my list one way or the other, though.

Quote:
actually mo cheeks stepping up and outplaying barkley was the reason why they had a chance.

Nice imagination.

Quote:
decline so much yet he was still better than he was the previous year, and every year bar 3 before 1993


I don't know where you get this shit from. I don't think you're being serious.

Quote:
nash was top 7 overall in 2007. as for kobe in the top 3? kobe wasn't even in the top 18. and after kidd and nash, the best point guards were baron davis, and tony parker.

Kobe not in the top 18? Again, you can't be serious. He was the consensus best player. Not only were his individual feats among the greatest ever, but his team overachieved considering their very limited talent level and the injuries to key players.

There was a total of 1 player who had a case to be over Kobe, and that was Tim Duncan. Everyone else was at least 1 tier below.

Nash was top 3, would have been top 4 if Dirk hadn't choked so bad in the first round.

Parker was a nice player, but just top 25

Quote:
no argument can be made for any of your clains so far in this thread.

Nothing I've said is the least bit surprising, or any sort of stretch. Kidd being top 10 in 2011 and closer to Nowitzki than he was to Chandler or Terry just sounds like a joke or trolling.

Kidd was comparable to Marion as their 4th/5th best player. He was pretty much a role player by that point. A very good one, but role players don't come close to top 10, or top 20 for that matter.

Quote:
he was actually third most valuable that year

I'd have him second behind Hakeem.

Quote:
wasn't even top 7

4th best player behind Jordan, Magic and Ewing and probably deserved a top 3 MVP ranking as well over Ewing thanks to the extra wins.

Quote:
these are the correct choices.



Quote:
he was actually third in 3 years: 1989, 1991, and 1992.

No, he was second on his team. 3rd is underrating him, then again, Mark Eaton and Jeff Malone were pretty good.

Quote:
magic did what his team needed him to do. in 1982 the lakers had 6 players in double digits averaging almost 110 between those guys. it would be no point in him scoring all these points, infact it would be to the detriment of the team. instead he rebounded better than he ever did in his entire career, did an outstanding job forcing turnovers (league leader in steals), shot the ball at 54%, and added 9.5 assists as a 2 guard. he did have a post game, although not as polished as it was later one in his career, but once again, he did not need this at that point as he was able to dominate, be the best player on the floor and eventually be the best in the league by the end of the playoffs.

Magic did what his team needed him to do, and that team happened to be the most talented in the league. He also did about what he was capable of doing, except he was capable of a bigger playmaking load.

Scoring more would have been a detriment to the team because he didn't have the skill set for it at that point. When he did have the skill set for it with the outside shot and post game, the Lakers had their best record since he joined the Lakers had their best record with him(65-17) and were the first team to win back to back since '69.

Magic was top 5 in '82, but I really can't see him higher.

Quote:
bird and magic had the better regular season.

Nope, Bird is less crazy, but in the end it doesn't make much sense to say anyone was as good as Moses that year.

Quote:
bird and magic already were better before the playoffs had started. erving was very close behind, kareem was a bit behind but then he helps the lakers dominate the playoffs, only losing 2 games in the process. this makes kareem easily better than malone. and erving gets past larry bird and makes the nba finals, making it an easy decision as to who were the best 4 players that year, infact it was closer between malone and robert parish than it was between malone and any of those 4.

1.Moses Malone
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Larry Bird
4.Julius Erving
5.Magic Johnson

Bird has a case over Kareem and Magic has a case over Dr. J, but this order is better. Parish and Gervin would probably be the next player on the list.

Quote:
his team meaning number 1 offensive option. he was the best player on that team since 1982

'84 at the earliest, but still debatable.

Quote:
the opportunity was there to be more ball dominant if he wasn't. and he could have been much more of a scorer, especially since the number 1 scorer in the league was no longer there.

Are you forgetting about the triangle offense? That's not an offense that encourages ball-dominance. As it turned out, it was a great idea to rely on the triangle more than ever with much less potential offensively. Pippen played a similar role to what he had been playing except for bringing the ball up a little less and splitting playmaking duties a bit more. He still had a career season setting career highs in scoring(22.0 ppg), rebounding(8.7 rpg), steals and a career high at the time in 3s made(0.9) and 3P%(32%). His team also overachieved at least 15 games by Phil Jackson's estimate.

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 08-05-2012 at 03:10 AM.
ShaqAttack3234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2012, 05:20 AM   #161
Round Mound
NBA lottery pick
 
Round Mound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,280
Round Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation hereRound Mound has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Malone`s FG% INMENSLY DROPPED In the Play-Offs ALWAYS. Infact he ONLY SHOT 50% FG for 3 of his Play-Off Runs...That is With HELP of a System Designed for Him Through the Pick and Rolls and Stockton as the Creator.

I would argue Barkley was Better from 85-86 to 1994-95 cause he was . Infact in 1994-95 Barkley was Still Better than Malone despite slowing down do to injuries.

The 1995-96 Season was When Malone became Better Clearly.

Last edited by Round Mound : 08-07-2012 at 07:56 PM.
Round Mound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 04:40 PM   #162
D.J.
College superstar
 
D.J.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Astoria, NY
Posts: 4,996
D.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputationD.J. has a terrific reputation
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Malone`s FG% INMENSY DROPPED In the Play-Offs ALWAYS. Infact he ONLY SHOT 50% FG for 3 of his Play-Off Runs...That is With HELP of a System Designed for Him Through the Pick and Rolls and Stockton as the Creator.

I would argue Barkley was Better from 85-86 to 1994-95 cause he was . Infact in 1994-95 Barkley was Still Better than Malone despite slowing down do to injuries.

The 1995-96 Season was When Malone became Better Clearly.

Not only did Malone's FG% drop, but he didn't not come through when his team needed him. Then again, neither did Stockton. Malone is the only superstar player I know(aside from his teammate) where in game 7s(or game 5s in the first round), he had a losing record.
D.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 05:33 AM   #163
Shep
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,575
Shep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Considering what he did against Buck Williams, it's definitely up there. I never said his '92 WCF was his best series for sure, just that it's one of his best.

Malone was anywhere from a top 2-4 player, and Barkley never got outplayed by Mo Cheeks except for his rookie year.
malone had better series in the previous two rounds and he was 8th best in the league.

barkley was ouplayed by cheeks in the 1989 playoffs.
Quote:
Yeah, that is quite a joke you told.

Quote:
Ah, the benefits of being a sidekick.
actually, he was the best player on a team that made the conference finals
Quote:
Malone was always better than him.
stockton was better from '88 til '92.
Quote:
If you lose in an earlier round, but play at your usual level, it usually means you came to play, but aren't on a contending team. To me, that is not a playoff failure. But in Stockton's case, he was on a contending team, didn't come to play in the series he got eliminated in, and that is a playoff failure to me. I wasn't overly impressed with his play up to that point either.
to me to get eliminated in the first round of the playoffs and not step up to where your team needs you to, to be in a winning position as a superstar player, and get outplayed and step up less than lesser players is a failure to me.
contending teams are contending teams because of individual performances.
Quote:
Barkley doesn't get outplayed by role players.
destroyed
Quote:
Key word, second best player. Barkley didn't have that luxury other than his rookie year and his real decline years in Houston.
what luxury?
Quote:
Malone had clearly been Utah's best player for a while.
only from 1993, so malone had been the jazz' best player for only 3 years
Quote:
Nah, they were relatively close, but Penny's offense was significantly better, imo. Payton was clearly the better defender and the gap in their defense was bigger than offense, but offense is more important at the point guard position. Penny finished 3rd in MVP voting, and led the team to a 20-8 record without Shaq, including a 17-5 start when he was averaging 26.4 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 6.8 apg, 2 spg, 50.3 FG%, 62.2 TS% showing what he could do as the man.

Payton's defense was clearly better as I mentioned, both help/team defense and man to man defense. But Penny's passing and court vision impressed me more, his mid-range game was better, imo and he was much bigger and much more athletic making him a greater threat driving to the basket and finishing. Just the better overall scorer and passer/playmaker to me.
penny was a superstar and only 1 spot separated these two on the official '96 rankings.

hardaway was the second best player on a team that had the second best record in the east and got swept in the conference finals.

payton was the best player on a team that had the second best record in the league and lost in the nba finals, the sonics also won 2 games against the bulls in the finals - 1 more than the three teams combined managed before seattle played them, and swept the defending 2 time champion houston rockets in the second round.

payton also was the defensive player of the year, more valuable, and led the league in steals per game, making it an easy decision.
Quote:
Yes, and I don't care for the reason I already stated.
its ok that you don't care, as long as you agree
Quote:
Barkley's series was impressive to me, especially for a 3rd year player. It doesn't alter his ranking on my list one way or the other, though.
how many years a player has played doesn't come into consideration when ranking players for me. barkley decreasing his production on many different categories does matter, especially when he is losing in the first round and others around him are stepping up - guys like roy hinson, julius erving, and mo cheeks. and barkley's ranking dropped from 5th after the regular season, to 8th after the playoffs because of this.
Quote:
Nice imagination.

Quote:
I don't know where you get this shit from. I don't think you're being serious.
i haven't thought you were serious since your first post in this thread
Quote:
Kobe not in the top 18? Again, you can't be serious. He was the consensus best player. Not only were his individual feats among the greatest ever, but his team overachieved considering their very limited talent level and the injuries to key players.

There was a total of 1 player who had a case to be over Kobe, and that was Tim Duncan. Everyone else was at least 1 tier below.
kobe had a nice regular season, but he simply did not win enought to be ranked anywhere near the top of the league. he also had a trash playoff series, and was destroyed by a suns outfit who had a top 3 paced offense and was almost outplayed by lamar odom, who stepped up alot more than bryant did.
Quote:
Nash was top 3, would have been top 4 if Dirk hadn't choked so bad in the first round.

Parker was a nice player, but just top 25
dirk's drop off in the post season wasn't enough for nash to surpass him. nowitzki was still in the top 5. also better than nash were tim duncan, lebron james, tracy mcgrady, jason kidd, and kevin garnett.

parker was top 11 overall
Quote:
Nothing I've said is the least bit surprising, or any sort of stretch. Kidd being top 10 in 2011 and closer to Nowitzki than he was to Chandler or Terry just sounds like a joke or trolling.

Kidd was comparable to Marion as their 4th/5th best player. He was pretty much a role player by that point. A very good one, but role players don't come close to top 10, or top 20 for that matter.
kidd was actually top 9 in 2011. the mavs had alot of one dimentional players but kidd wasn't one of them. in the regular season he was 6th in points, fifth in rebounds, had twice the amount of assists than the next best player, first in steals, fifth in blocks, and only turned the ball over 2 times per contest in 33 minutes, and had a 3.73/1 assist to turnover ratio, which was third among all players in the regular season.

in the playoffs he was fourth in points, fourth in rebounts, over two times the amount of assists than the next best player, first in steals, fifth in blocks, and only recorded 2.6 turnovers per game which is a very low number for a point guard, and had a 2.73/1 assist to turnover ratio, which was third among all players in the playoffs.
Shep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 05:34 AM   #164
Shep
Decent college freshman
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,575
Shep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat coolShep is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
I'd have him second behind Hakeem.
barkley more valuable than jordan
Quote:
4th best player behind Jordan, Magic and Ewing and probably deserved a top 3 MVP ranking as well over Ewing thanks to the extra wins.
10th best player behind jordan, robinson, olajuwon, johnson, ewing, thomas, drexler, stockton, and bird. top 8 mvp ranking behind jordan, robinson, johnson, stockton, malone, olajuwon, and ewing.
Quote:
No, he was second on his team. 3rd is underrating him, then again, Mark Eaton and Jeff Malone were pretty good.
eaton and jeff malone were pretty good, not as good as stockton tho. they were closer to karl malone than john stockton, and much closer to charles barkley than john stockton.
Quote:
Magic did what his team needed him to do, and that team happened to be the most talented in the league. He also did about what he was capable of doing, except he was capable of a bigger playmaking load
lol what a joke. he would've easily accepted the bigger playmaking load in 1982, but they already had one of the best point guards in the league in norm nixon there at point guard, and magic playing alongside him made him a better player.
Quote:
Scoring more would have been a detriment to the team because he didn't have the skill set for it at that point. When he did have the skill set for it with the outside shot and post game, the Lakers had their best record since he joined the Lakers had their best record with him(65-17) and were the first team to win back to back since '69.
another joke. what happened to this "scoring skillset" in just the next season when he dropped to 19.6ppg, which was less than his 21.6ppg in his sophmore season, and only 1 more than he averaged in 1982?
Quote:
Magic was top 5 in '82, but I really can't see him higher.
thats ok, not everyone can see the truth. magic was easily the best player in the game at that point.
Quote:
Nope, Bird is less crazy, but in the end it doesn't make much sense to say anyone was as good as Moses that year.
it actually makes alot of sense to say 4 players were better than moses in 1982 and that he was barely better than robert parish.
Quote:
1.Moses Malone
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.Larry Bird
4.Julius Erving
5.Magic Johnson
2,3,and 4 are correct, swap 1 and 5 and you have a nice top 5.
Quote:
Bird has a case over Kareem and Magic has a case over Dr. J, but this order is better. Parish and Gervin would probably be the next player on the list.
bird and kareem are relatively close, bird and erving is the closest. parish, norm nixon, and gus williams are the next best players.
Quote:
'84 at the earliest, but still debatable.
not debatable as magic was easily better by 1982. 1981 is much more debatable as to who was the better player between the two.
Quote:
Are you forgetting about the triangle offense? That's not an offense that encourages ball-dominance. As it turned out, it was a great idea to rely on the triangle more than ever with much less potential offensively. Pippen played a similar role to what he had been playing except for bringing the ball up a little less and splitting playmaking duties a bit more. He still had a career season setting career highs in scoring(22.0 ppg), rebounding(8.7 rpg), steals and a career high at the time in 3s made(0.9) and 3P%(32%). His team also overachieved at least 15 games by Phil Jackson's estimate.
pippen had a nice season, but it wasn't up to the standard of the previous seasons, and with the lack of scorers on that team with the absence of mj, he should have picked up the scoring slack to average atleast 25-26ppg
Shep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 06:17 PM   #165
ShaqAttack3234
7-time NBA All-Star
 
ShaqAttack3234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 12,992
ShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableShaqAttack3234 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound

I would argue Barkley was Better from 85-86 to 1994-95 cause he was . Infact in 1994-95 Barkley was Still Better than Malone despite slowing down do to injuries.

I think that Barkley and Malone are debatable in '94 and '95, but Malone did surpass him a little by that point, imo. Although Barkley was clearly better from '86-'93 except for '92.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J.
Not only did Malone's FG% drop, but he didn't not come through when his team needed him. Then again, neither did Stockton. Malone is the only superstar player I know(aside from his teammate) where in game 7s(or game 5s in the first round), he had a losing record.

While Malone deserves blame for his playoff failures, I think he's clearly been the better playoff performer than Stockton for most of their careers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
malone had better series in the previous two rounds and he was 8th best in the league.

Once again, I said one of Malone's best series, not his absolute best. His '92 series vs the Clippers was not better, but I wouldn't necessarily argue with the Seattle series.

8th is way too low. He was great in all 3 rounds of the playoffs after an excellent regular season. it was Malone's best playoff run even though I think he became a better player later and peaked in '98.

Quote:
actually, he was the best player on a team that made the conference finals

What a joke, especially considering how heavily you weigh the playoffs. Malone's playoff run completely destroyed Stockton's.

Quote:
to me to get eliminated in the first round of the playoffs and not step up to where your team needs you to, to be in a winning position as a superstar player, and get outplayed and step up less than lesser players is a failure to me.
contending teams are contending teams because of individual performances.

Contending teams are contending teams because they have quite a few good players, and usually execute well offensively or defensively. Obviously individual performances are a part of it, you need your players to perform well to contend, but one player playing well is far from all you need to contend.

Quote:
what luxury?

The luxury of being the second best player on his team.

Quote:
only from 1993, so malone had been the jazz' best player for only 3 years

Nope, every year Malone had been in the league, so from '86 until Stockton retired.

Quote:
penny was a superstar and only 1 spot separated these two on the official '96 rankings.

hardaway was the second best player on a team that had the second best record in the east and got swept in the conference finals.

payton was the best player on a team that had the second best record in the league and lost in the nba finals, the sonics also won 2 games against the bulls in the finals - 1 more than the three teams combined managed before seattle played them, and swept the defending 2 time champion houston rockets in the second round.

payton also was the defensive player of the year, more valuable, and led the league in steals per game, making it an easy decision.

Like I said, i don't have a problem with you taking Payton, I think it's close and apparently you do as well since you ranked them right next to each other.

Team success isn't a real issue here when deciding between these 2 players. Both had a lot of success, Seattle fared better against Chicago, but still fell in a 3-0 hole. And Orlando was facing the Bulls with basically just Shaq and Penny due to injuries and pathetic shooting by the supporting cast.

The key to Seattle sweeping Houston was their swarming defense limiting Hakeem so much, and also balance, Payton, Kemp and Schrempf all averaged 20+ on better on at least 50% in the series.

Quote:
how many years a player has played doesn't come into consideration when ranking players for me. barkley decreasing his production on many different categories does matter, especially when he is losing in the first round and others around him are stepping up - guys like roy hinson, julius erving, and mo cheeks. and barkley's ranking dropped from 5th after the regular season, to 8th after the playoffs because of this.

Barkley being a 3rd year player is definitely relevant as far as I'm concerned. A 1st round series when a player is so young is not a career-altering event. Barkley's level of play was at least as high as it usually was that season and you're overrating his teammates.

Quote:
kobe had a nice regular season, but he simply did not win enought to be ranked anywhere near the top of the league. he also had a trash playoff series, and was destroyed by a suns outfit who had a top 3 paced offense and was almost outplayed by lamar odom, who stepped up alot more than bryant did.

He went 42-40 with his best teammates being Lamar Odom(who missed 26 games), Luke Walton(who missed 22 games), Smush Parker and kwame brown(who missed 41 games).

He did about as well as you could expect him to. How many players even make the playoffs when those are their key players and they miss that many games?

I'd expect them to be destroyed by Phoenix, the Suns were very talented, and 1 of 3 legit championship contenders that year. Kobe didn't play like trash either, he played fine and averaged 33 ppg.

Quote:
dirk's drop off in the post season wasn't enough for nash to surpass him. nowitzki was still in the top 5. also better than nash were tim duncan, lebron james, tracy mcgrady, jason kidd, and kevin garnett.

I'm fine with you ranking Dirk over Nash regardless. Duncan was clearly better of course.

Kidd over Nash in '07 is a joke, maybe if Kidd would have been 4 years younger we'd have a good debate. McGrady doesn't have much of a case by that stage in his career. Garnett has a case.

Lebron has a case as well, I can live with that, even though I really disagree. Lebron's '07 season is ridiculously overrated. His jump shot was painful to watch. Give me Nash any day.

Quote:
kidd was actually top 9 in 2011. the mavs had alot of one dimentional players but kidd wasn't one of them. in the regular season he was 6th in points, fifth in rebounds, had twice the amount of assists than the next best player, first in steals, fifth in blocks, and only turned the ball over 2 times per contest in 33 minutes, and had a 3.73/1 assist to turnover ratio, which was third among all players in the regular season.

You're citing Kidd finishing 6th in scoring and 5th in rebounds and blocks on his own team as some kind of case for being the 9th best player in the NBA?

Sorry, but it's so ridiculous to put Kidd that high I don't even have to argue it. He was pretty much a role player. Role players aren't close to top 20 players, much less top 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
barkley more valuable than jordan


Just for regular season MVP. Both Jordan and Hakeem were the top 2 players in the league overall.

Quote:
lol what a joke. he would've easily accepted the bigger playmaking load in 1982, but they already had one of the best point guards in the league in norm nixon there at point guard, and magic playing alongside him made him a better player.

How did Magic make Norm Nixon a better player?

Quote:
another joke. what happened to this "scoring skillset" in just the next season when he dropped to 19.6ppg, which was less than his 21.6ppg in his sophmore season, and only 1 more than he averaged in 1982?


at you comparing numbers from '81 when he played 37 games. The Lakers pace had also slowed considerably so Magic couldn't live off transition points to the same extent he did in '82.

But again, it'd be much easier for you to watch the games. Magic improving so much is just too obvious to miss when you watch the games. But I'm supposed to believe that adding a good outside shot and a devastating post game doesn't make you considerably better?

Quote:
thats ok, not everyone can see the truth. magic was easily the best player in the game at that point.

That's ok, not everyone has the time to get old games from '82 and watch them, but those who do know how laughable your claim is.

Quote:
2,3,and 4 are correct, swap 1 and 5 and you have a nice top 5.

Absolutely no chance of this with the complete absence of an outside shot and post game.

Quote:
not debatable as magic was easily better by 1982. 1981 is much more debatable as to who was the better player between the two.

'81 is debatable? Magic missed 45 games and then costs the Lakers that 3 game mini-series when he shoots 39% and airballs the potential series winning shot on a play designed for Kareem.

Kareem was still close to the top of his game then. They weren't close to the same tier.

'84 is the first year Magic has a case, this is obvious when watching the games. The most important part of ranking players.

Quote:
pippen had a nice season, but it wasn't up to the standard of the previous seasons, and with the lack of scorers on that team with the absence of mj, he should have picked up the scoring slack to average atleast 25-26ppg

I already dismantled this ridiculous claim.
ShaqAttack3234 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:36 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy