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Old 08-12-2012, 03:32 AM   #166
Shep
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Once again, I said one of Malone's best series, not his absolute best. His '92 series vs the Clippers was not better, but I wouldn't necessarily argue with the Seattle series.

8th is way too low. He was great in all 3 rounds of the playoffs after an excellent regular season. it was Malone's best playoff run even though I think he became a better player later and peaked in '98.
the series vs the clippers was easily better, as well as the seattle series.

it was a nice playoff run, fourth in his career after 1998, 1997, and 1996. 1997 was malone at his peak. as for 1992 well it was just a little too stacked in the top 7 for malone to break into, regardless of how stellar his year was.
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What a joke, especially considering how heavily you weigh the playoffs. Malone's playoff run completely destroyed Stockton's.
lol malone's playoff run didn't completely destroy stockton's, atleast nowhere near how much stockton's regular season destroyed malone's.
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Contending teams are contending teams because they have quite a few good players, and usually execute well offensively or defensively. Obviously individual performances are a part of it, you need your players to perform well to contend, but one player playing well is far from all you need to contend.
yeh, and role players stepping up when your superstar isn't at all is usually to the detriment of your teams success.
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The luxury of being the second best player on his team.
i wouldn't really call that a luxury
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Nope, every year Malone had been in the league, so from '86 until Stockton retired.
stockton was the jazz' best player the second he was injected into the starting 5 until 1993, or 5 years.
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Like I said, i don't have a problem with you taking Payton, I think it's close and apparently you do as well since you ranked them right next to each other.

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Team success isn't a real issue here when deciding between these 2 players. Both had a lot of success, Seattle fared better against Chicago, but still fell in a 3-0 hole. And Orlando was facing the Bulls with basically just Shaq and Penny due to injuries and pathetic shooting by the supporting cast.
team success is a issue here considering payton was the best player on his team that made the finals, where as hardaway was the second best player on his team that made the conference semifinals. seattle fell into a 3-0 hole, but won the next two games, orlando fell into a 3-0 hole, and proceeded to lose the next game and get swept. the magic average losing margin was also almost 20 points
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The key to Seattle sweeping Houston was their swarming defense limiting Hakeem so much, and also balance, Payton, Kemp and Schrempf all averaged 20+ on better on at least 50% in the series.
and payton was the mvp of that series
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Barkley being a 3rd year player is definitely relevant as far as I'm concerned. A 1st round series when a player is so young is not a career-altering event. Barkley's level of play was at least as high as it usually was that season and you're overrating his teammates.
his teammates stepped up, barkley did not
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He went 42-40 with his best teammates being Lamar Odom(who missed 26 games), Luke Walton(who missed 22 games), Smush Parker and kwame brown(who missed 41 games).

He did about as well as you could expect him to. How many players even make the playoffs when those are their key players and they miss that many games?
odom was a top 5 power forward, walton was a nice all-round player and averaged 11.4/5.0/4.3 and 39% from downtown, smush parker and andrew bynum were also nice contributers. and the lakers were 3-2 without kobe. one of those losses was also without lamar odom and odom showed superstar potential in those 4 games without kobe averaging 22/12/7.
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I'd expect them to be destroyed by Phoenix, the Suns were very talented, and 1 of 3 legit championship contenders that year. Kobe didn't play like trash either, he played fine and averaged 33 ppg.
odom stepped up alot more
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Kidd over Nash in '07 is a joke, maybe if Kidd would have been 4 years younger we'd have a good debate
nash had the better regular season, but kidd's performance in the playoff's is the difference between the two.
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McGrady doesn't have much of a case by that stage in his career
by that stage of his career? this was mcgrady's 4th best season of his career
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Lebron has a case as well, I can live with that, even though I really disagree. Lebron's '07 season is ridiculously overrated. His jump shot was painful to watch. Give me Nash any day.
lol nobody was anywhere near duncan and lebron that year
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You're citing Kidd finishing 6th in scoring and 5th in rebounds and blocks on his own team as some kind of case for being the 9th best player in the NBA?
ofcourse not, this is proof of kidd contributing on alot of different levels is the reason he was the second best player on his own team.
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Sorry, but it's so ridiculous to put Kidd that high I don't even have to argue it. He was pretty much a role player. Role players aren't close to top 20 players, much less top 10.
he was easily the champion teams second best player in the regular season and playoffs.
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Just for regular season MVP. Both Jordan and Hakeem were the top 2 players in the league overall.
both olajuwon and jordan were more valuable in the regular season, and both were better overall
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How did Magic make Norm Nixon a better player?
easy. before magic norm nixon wasn't as good as he was after he arrived.
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at you comparing numbers from '81 when he played 37 games. The Lakers pace had also slowed considerably so Magic couldn't live off transition points to the same extent he did in '82.
37 games is more than enough to prove what he was capable of.
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But again, it'd be much easier for you to watch the games. Magic improving so much is just too obvious to miss when you watch the games. But I'm supposed to believe that adding a good outside shot and a devastating post game doesn't make you considerably better?
you obviously need to watch more games
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That's ok, not everyone has the time to get old games from '82 and watch them, but those who do know how laughable your claim is.
people who have watched games will agree with everything i have said, unfortunately for most, they have only had limited viewings.
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Absolutely no chance of this with the complete absence of an outside shot and post game.
he had a solid post game by that point, and a nice shooting touch.
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'81 is debatable? Magic missed 45 games and then costs the Lakers that 3 game mini-series when he shoots 39% and airballs the potential series winning shot on a play designed for Kareem.

Kareem was still close to the top of his game then. They weren't close to the same tier.
magic was the lakers best player in the regular season, but his poor playoff was the cause of kareem taking the ranking ahead of him
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'84 is the first year Magic has a case, this is obvious when watching the games. The most important part of ranking players.
obviously you haven't watched enough games.
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I already dismantled this ridiculous claim.
i have demolished all of your claims
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:32 PM   #167
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Shep
the series vs the clippers was easily better, as well as the seattle series.

There is nothing that made his Clippers series more impressive,

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it was a nice playoff run, fourth in his career after 1998, 1997, and 1996. 1997 was malone at his peak. as for 1992 well it was just a little too stacked in the top 7 for malone to break into, regardless of how stellar his year was.

at Malone's '97 playoff run being more impressive. He shot 43.5%! That was a pretty weak playoff run for him. He didn't have a series during that run which compared to his '92 WCSF and WCF series.

I don't see the argument for '96 either.

'98 is the closest playoff run to '92.

How was '97 a better season for Malone than '98? He did everything he did in '97, except better. Ended up with the same regular season numbers despite Stockton missing 18 games and dropping from a 35 mpg player to a 29 mpg player. Utah's record also still ended up almost the same. And on top of that, Malone's '98 playoff run was much better.

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lol malone's playoff run didn't completely destroy stockton's, atleast nowhere near how much stockton's regular season destroyed malone's.

Yes it did, Stockton's playoff run was a disappointment as usual, Malone's was a surprise because of how good it was. Stockton was also inferior to Malone in the regular season as is usually the case with sidekicks.

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yeh, and role players stepping up when your superstar isn't at all is usually to the detriment of your teams success.

When did this happen?

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i wouldn't really call that a luxury

I would, it's a lot different being the second best player.

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stockton was the jazz' best player the second he was injected into the starting 5 until 1993, or 5 years.

This is completely ridiculous.

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team success is a issue here considering payton was the best player on his team that made the finals, where as hardaway was the second best player on his team that made the conference semifinals. seattle fell into a 3-0 hole, but won the next two games, orlando fell into a 3-0 hole, and proceeded to lose the next game and get swept. the magic average losing margin was also almost 20 points


A 2 man team didn't have much of a chance at beating the 72-10 Bulls. Both teams lost to Chicago so I don't see much of an issue here.

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and payton was the mvp of that series

Maybe, I haven't thought about it before.

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his teammates stepped up, barkley did not

False

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odom was a top 5 power forward, walton was a nice all-round player and averaged 11.4/5.0/4.3 and 39% from downtown, smush parker and andrew bynum were also nice contributers. and the lakers were 3-2 without kobe. one of those losses was also without lamar odom and odom showed superstar potential in those 4 games without kobe averaging 22/12/7.

Odom was looking like an all-star before his injury, but he was bothered by injuries, particularly a shoulder injury which prevented him from maintaining this level.

Odom was his only teammate that was a proven legitimate NBA starter, and he missed 26 games.

Walton was playing his best basketball, but was still far from anything special, and he also missed 22 games.

Smush Parker was just not very good, and Bynum was nothing special yet.Just an 8/6 center who played 22 mpg.

Really, how many games do you expect Kobe to win with that lineup? Whatever decent players he had seemed to get injured.

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odom stepped up alot more

Nope.

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nash had the better regular season, but kidd's performance in the playoff's is the difference between the two.

It's really a laughable comparison. Nash had one of the all-time great shooting seasons we've seen leading the league in TS% and eFG% at over 65% and over 61%, respectively, while also leading the league in assists at almost 12 per game, and scoring almost 19 ppg.

Nash was at a completely different level than Kidd by '07.

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by that stage of his career? this was mcgrady's 4th best season of his career

You must have not followed McGrady's career. It's obvious that T-Mac's prime ended after 2005, his first season in Houston. 2007 is clearly no better than his 6th best season.

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lol nobody was anywhere near duncan and lebron that year

at you ignoring Lebron's broken jump shot. Lebron was nowhere near Kobe's level in '07.

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ofcourse not, this is proof of kidd contributing on alot of different levels is the reason he was the second best player on his own team.

5th and 6th best in certain categories on a team is nothing notable. He was clearly behind Terry and Chandler.

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he was easily the champion teams second best player in the regular season and playoffs.

4th or 5th best.

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easy. before magic norm nixon wasn't as good as he was after he arrived.

A blatant lie. In '79, Nixon averaged the most assists he ever had as a Laker with an even 9, while also averaging 17.1 ppg, which was just 0.5 off from his career average along with easily a career high of 54.2 FG% and a career-high 2.5 spg.

it wouldn't make any sense for Nixon to benefit from playing with Magic. they played the same position and took opportunities away from each other.

And when Nixon left the Lakers, he averaged 17 ppg and a career-high 11.1 apg to finish 2nd in the league to only Magic.

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37 games is more than enough to prove what he was capable of.

It's not even half a season.

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you obviously need to watch more games

No, this is what you have to do. Once you do, you'll be able to see Magic's clear improvement and why he was considerably better from '87-'90 than ever before.

'82 magic was mostly a transition player. Absolutely no outside shot or post game to make him a consistent half court scoring threat. There's no argument for that version being better than any from '87-'91.

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people who have watched games will agree with everything i have said, unfortunately for most, they have only had limited viewings.

No, these statements seem to be based entirely on stats, but stats that are only used when it's convenient.

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he had a solid post game by that point, and a nice shooting touch.

Now this is a blatant lie that proves you have not watched 1982 Laker games. Why even bother lying like this? You know that people who have watched the games will catch the lie.

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magic was the lakers best player in the regular season, but his poor playoff was the cause of kareem taking the ranking ahead of him

First of all, it's arguable that not even prime Magic('87-'90) when healthy played at the level of '81 Kareem, much less second year Magic in a year ruined by injuries.

I don't bother ranking a player who doesn't play at least 42 regular season games, and no less than 50 overall games, but even so, I know that Magic was never close to the level of '81 Kareem before '87.

Kareem led LA to a 28-17 record without Magic and raised his scoring to 28.8 ppg in those games.

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obviously you haven't watched enough games.

Oh, the irony.

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i have demolished all of your claims

Must be nice living in your own fantasy world.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:21 AM   #168
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

There's no need to get bogged in statistical year-by-year comparisons. It's tedious and unnecessary. Big picture, who was the better basketball player on his best day?

Not even close. Barkley.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:48 AM   #169
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Barkley: Karl Malone is the best Power Forward in basetkball!!

http://youtu.be/T4PjJ5Iw58o?t=2m54s
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:00 AM   #170
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Chalkmaze
Barkley: Karl Malone is the best Power Forward in basetkball!!

http://youtu.be/T4PjJ5Iw58o?t=2m54s
This was from 1989-1990.

And I loved this show, back when NBA players were regulars on late night shows. Only NBA players on shows are after the NBA Finals.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:06 AM   #171
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Peak value wise Barkley is right. Hell I think Barkley peak value wise is the greatest PF of all time. There hasn't been a PF like Chuck before or since. Malone was a beast though and GOAT wise I would give him an edge. Karl was more of a traditional PF type. We hadn't really seen a guy 6'9 and 265 pounds run the floor like he did and combine it with a great midrange shot. But he still kept his physicality at the same time and was a beast on the glass. He also sets the standard for great longevity at the PF spot and improving (passing, defense) as the years went on. But Chuck would have been epic at either the SF or PF spot, something Karl could NEVER do.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:19 AM   #172
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Charles was Always Humble Regarding Who He Thinks is the Best PF Back in the Day...but he Ranks Himself as Nº2 /AS OF NOW-RIGHT NOW.

A Compliment for Malone is Also Important because Stockton and Malone where not Recieving the Recognition they Deserved in their Early Days in the late 80s and early 90s

Deleted John Stockton and Karl Malone Bits from the Dream Team Documentary

Minute: 4:26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtAuq_U7OFE

Barkley says "I Knew I Was the Best PF in the World, Malone Might Have Though He Was.... But I Knew I Was the Best...etc"

Dream Team Barcelona '92 Barkley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sPc23ME6bM

Minute: 1:50

Malone said: "When Charles Want`s to (That is is Motivated or Pissed) He Can Do WHAT EVER HE WANT`s to In the Court (that is more things that i can do)"

Now That Says it All.

Last edited by Round Mound : 08-13-2012 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:22 AM   #173
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16
11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 LeBron James 28.01 8
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Jerry West 27.10 14
15 David Robinson 26.98 14
16 Karl Malone 26.94 19
17 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14
18 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
19 Shaquille O'neal 26.05 19
20 Kevin Garnett 25.98 16
21 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
22 Tim Duncan 25.68 14

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

NBA/ABA

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.24
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.70
7. Chris Paul 25.44
8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
9. Tim Duncan 24.75
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
14. Karl Malone* 23.90

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

NBA/ABA

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.10
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.13
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.27
7. Kevin Durant 24.70
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.68
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.06
11. Tracy McGrady 23.70
12. Dwight Howard 23.65
13. Dolph Schayes* 23.29
14. Jerry West* 23.06
15. David Robinson* 23.02
16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
17. Magic Johnson* 22.95
18. Wilt Chamberlain* 22.77
19. Amare Stoudemire 22.63
20. Bob Pettit* 22.59
21. Kobe Bryant 22.40
22. Julius Erving* 22.05
23. Elgin Baylor* 21.83
24. Rick Barry* 21.79
25. Russell Westbrook 21.66
26. Moses Malone* 21.57
27. Kevin Garnett 21.49
28. Larry Bird* 21.41
29. Baron Davis 21.36
30. Allen Iverson 21.24
31. George Gervin* 21.17
32. Karl Malone* 21.12

More Fun with Statistical +/-

Posted by Neil Paine on February 27, 2009

The other day, I talked at some length about “statistical plus/minus,” which is just a regression of pure adjusted +/- on the conventional boxscore stats. In that post, I looked into the possibility of predicting the following season using a weighted average of the 3 previous seasons’ SPM scores, but I realize that I sort of skimmed over the statistical +/- metric itself — what are its strengths and weaknesses? What kind of players does it overrate and underrate?

In an effort to better understand the metric and answer these questions, I calculated the career leaders in SPM (combined NBA + ABA, minimum 15,000 career MP) through last Saturday’s games. Here’s the list:

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85
wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59
davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79
lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00
charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03
k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82
larrybird F 897 34443 8.81
juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57
shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21
bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79
oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75
hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70
elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59
karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
timduncan F 877 32481 7.30

Shot Made & Missed Diferential Stat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNib-...el_video_title

http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/nbaalltimescorers.htm

SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)

Unstoppable shot makers (+1 - infinity):

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434
5. Robert Parish: +1,314
6. Adrian Dantley: +1,220.5
7. Karl Malone: +888.5
8. Bernard King: +562.5
9. Hakeem Olajuwon: +519.5
10. Walt Bellamy: +488
11. Walter Davis: +443.5
12. Bob Lanier: +431
13. George Gervin: +381.5
14. Alex English: +291
15. Reggie Miller: +263
16. Tim Duncan: +248
17. Dale Ellis: +230.5
18. Larry Bird: +172.5
19. Patrick Ewing: +172.5
20. Michael Jordan: +137.5
21. Kevin Garnett: +0.5

BARKLEY > Malone

Last edited by Round Mound : 08-13-2012 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:23 AM   #174
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Old 08-13-2012, 05:24 AM   #175
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
This was from 1989-1990.

And I loved this show, back when NBA players were regulars on late night shows. Only NBA players on shows are after the NBA Finals.

Yep, good times.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:25 AM   #176
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalkmaze
Barkley: Karl Malone is the best Power Forward in basetkball!!

http://youtu.be/T4PjJ5Iw58o?t=2m54s

I agree, it's funny how some people want to bury the real headlines with a bunch of slanted, revisionist gobbly goop.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:03 AM   #177
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
There is nothing that made his Clippers series more impressive,
what about the fact that he played better in the clippers series? that would make the clippers series more impressive. 29.8ppg, 12.0rpg, 2.8apg, 1.2spg, 2.2bpg, 2.4topg in the clippers series vs 28.2ppg, 11.7rpg, 2.3apg, 1.0spg, 0.8bpg, 3.5topg in the blazers series. so more points, more rebounds, more assists, more steals, over twice the number of blocks, and far less turnovers.
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at Malone's '97 playoff run being more impressive. He shot 43.5%! That was a pretty weak playoff run for him. He didn't have a series during that run which compared to his '92 WCSF and WCF series.
he led his team to its first finals appearance in its 23 year history and you are worried about field goal percentage

he averaged 30.7ppg, 11.3rpg, 2.0apg, 1.3spg, and 1.0bpg in a 3-0 demolishing of the la clippers

28.6ppg, 12.6rpg, 2.2apg, 1.0spg, and 0.6 bpg in a 4-1 destroying of shaquille o'neal and the los angeles lakers including a 32 point, 20 rebound game in the closout game 5

23.5ppg, 11.5rpg, 3.2apg, 1.3spg, and 1.2bpg in a 6 game victory over charles barkley, and the powerful big 3 of the houston rockets, including 26.5ppg, 12.5rpg, 4.5apg, 1.5spg, and 1.5bpg in the final two victories after the series was tied at 2-2.

and 23.8ppg, 10.3rpg, 3.5apg, 1.7spg, and 0.3bpg against the unstoppable chicago bulls.
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I don't see the argument for '96 either.

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'98 is the closest playoff run to '92.
1998 was his best playoff run
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How was '97 a better season for Malone than '98? He did everything he did in '97, except better. Ended up with the same regular season numbers despite Stockton missing 18 games and dropping from a 35 mpg player to a 29 mpg player. Utah's record also still ended up almost the same. And on top of that, Malone's '98 playoff run was much better.
malone's 1998 playoff run was only marginally better than his 1997 one. some would say its impossible to separate them. the regular season was also quite close, but this time it is relatively easy to separate them, in this case 1997 was the stronger of the two years.
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Yes it did, Stockton's playoff run was a disappointment as usual, Malone's was a surprise because of how good it was. Stockton was also inferior to Malone in the regular season as is usually the case with sidekicks.
stockton played well in the playoffs, malone's play was a surprise because his play was much better than what he showed in the regular season. stockton was easily the jazz' best player in the regular season, best point guard in the league, and top 6 overall.
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When did this happen?
this happened to the philadelphia 76ers in 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991. and to the phoenix suns in 1995.
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I would, it's a lot different being the second best player.
alot of individual sacrifices must be made in order to have team success
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This is completely ridiculous.
facts are ridiculous?
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A 2 man team didn't have much of a chance at beating the 72-10 Bulls. Both teams lost to Chicago so I don't see much of an issue here.
what a joke here. a 2 man team who also had a top 3 shooting guard and a top 4 power forward, to go along with a top 2 center and a top 2 point guard wasn't enough to take 1 game away from chicago? not to mention dennis scott and his career year of 17.5ppg, 3.8rpg, 3.0apg, 1.1spg, and 59%ts

no issue with both teams losing to chicago? another joke. team a goes 42-40 and misses out on a playoff spot by 1 game, team b goes 2-80...who cares, there is no issue here, they both missed the playoffs!
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Maybe, I haven't thought about it before.
i have
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False
the actual answer is "that is correct master shep"
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Odom was looking like an all-star before his injury, but he was bothered by injuries, particularly a shoulder injury which prevented him from maintaining this level.

Odom was his only teammate that was a proven legitimate NBA starter, and he missed 26 games.

Walton was playing his best basketball, but was still far from anything special, and he also missed 22 games.

Smush Parker was just not very good, and Bynum was nothing special yet.Just an 8/6 center who played 22 mpg.

Really, how many games do you expect Kobe to win with that lineup? Whatever decent players he had seemed to get injured.
i didn't have any expectations on how many wins bryant would possibly end up with at the end of the regular season. odom proved to be a much better player without bryant in the lineup and who knows how he could have led them for a whole season. i don't deal with what ifs, i deal with what actually happened, and bryant season warrented him being ranked no higher than 19th
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Nope.

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It's really a laughable comparison. Nash had one of the all-time great shooting seasons we've seen leading the league in TS% and eFG% at over 65% and over 61%, respectively, while also leading the league in assists at almost 12 per game, and scoring almost 19 ppg.

Nash was at a completely different level than Kidd by '07.
again, kidd's playoffs was the difference here. he averaged a triple double for 12 games. defeated the favourite toronto raptors in the first round, before succumbing to the eventual eastern conference champion cavs in the semifinals. kidd averaged 15/11/11 with 2 steals.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:04 AM   #178
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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You must have not followed McGrady's career. It's obvious that T-Mac's prime ended after 2005, his first season in Houston. 2007 is clearly no better than his 6th best season.
you must not have watched any basketball games. past his prime yet averaging 25/5/7 in the regular season and 25/6/7 in the playoffs
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at you ignoring Lebron's broken jump shot. Lebron was nowhere near Kobe's level in '07.
that apparent "broken jumpshot" didn't stop the cavs from making the nba finals for the first time in franchise history, didn't stop the cavs defeating the higher seed detroit pistons in the conference finals, didn't stop lebron scoring the cavs last 25 or so points in game 5 of those same conference finals en route to a 48 point performance (with 9 rebounds and 7 assists), didn't stop the cavs coming back from a 0-2 deficit in those conference finals to take the next 4 games while lebron averaged 31/10/9/2. what a joke to mention bryant in the same breath as lebron that particular season.
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5th and 6th best in certain categories on a team is nothing notable. He was clearly behind Terry and Chandler.
terry and chandler contributed nowhere near to that of kidd
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4th or 5th best.
1st or 2nd best
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A blatant lie. In '79, Nixon averaged the most assists he ever had as a Laker with an even 9, while also averaging 17.1 ppg, which was just 0.5 off from his career average along with easily a career high of 54.2 FG% and a career-high 2.5 spg.

it wouldn't make any sense for Nixon to benefit from playing with Magic. they played the same position and took opportunities away from each other.

And when Nixon left the Lakers, he averaged 17 ppg and a career-high 11.1 apg to finish 2nd in the league to only Magic.
learning and accepting and excelling in your role to a winning team is much better than throwing up meaningless stats on a losing team.
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It's not even half a season.
i know its not half a season, half a season would make it 41 games because a full season is 82 games.
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No, this is what you have to do. Once you do, you'll be able to see Magic's clear improvement and why he was considerably better from '87-'90 than ever before.
its actually what you need to do. once you do you will finally come to the realization that he was only better in 1987
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'82 magic was mostly a transition player. Absolutely no outside shot or post game to make him a consistent half court scoring threat. There's no argument for that version being better than any from '87-'91.
'82 magic was the best player on a 57 win team and a team that steamrolled through the playoffs to the tune of a 4-0 sweep of the suns, 4-0 sweep of the spurs, and 4-2 demolishing of 58 win, dr j led sixers. a playoff record of 12-2. magic averaged 18.6ppg, an incredible 9.6rpg, 9.5apg, 2.7spg (led the league), and 54%fg in the regular season and 17.4ppg, 11.3rpg, 9.3apg, 2.9spg, and 53%fg in the playoffs.

there was minimal amount of players around in the early 80's who had any outside shot anyway, and magic was one of the few who had a nice shooting touch, and magic also definately had the ability to score from the post.
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No, these statements seem to be based entirely on stats, but stats that are only used when it's convenient.
irony at its finest
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Now this is a blatant lie that proves you have not watched 1982 Laker games. Why even bother lying like this? You know that people who have watched the games will catch the lie.
no lies are being told from this end. if you watched more games you would find the truth
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First of all, it's arguable that not even prime Magic('87-'90) when healthy played at the level of '81 Kareem, much less second year Magic in a year ruined by injuries.
comedic genius right here
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I don't bother ranking a player who doesn't play at least 42 regular season games, and no less than 50 overall games
usually i don't either, unless special circumstances where the player is one of the best players in the nba
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but even so, I know that Magic was never close to the level of '81 Kareem before '87.
magic was better than '81 kareem every year, even rookie magic johnson was better than '81 abdul-jabbar.
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Kareem led LA to a 28-17 record without Magic and raised his scoring to 28.8 ppg in those games.
what was the record with magic johnson tho?
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Oh, the irony.
more irony
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Must be nice living in your own fantasy world.
you'd be the most qualified to answer such questions. as for who is the best player questions, please for your own sake and credibility, let me answer it.
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:55 PM   #179
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
what about the fact that he played better in the clippers series?

Predictable, nothing but stats.

Malone took it to Buck Williams, a top post defender and a powerhouse Blazer team that was favored in the WCF and was unstoppable. Despite Portland taking Stockton out of his game whether it was Porter dismantling him at both ends or trapping the screen/rolls out high, Malone picked up the slack posting up deep at will and overpowering the Blazers inside as well as hitting his mid-range jumpers with regularity. Malone put Utah on his back and gave them a legitimate chance vs a great team despite his two best teammates being severely outplayed by Portland's back court.

That's a lot more impressive than slightly better stats(with the exception of shooting 55% in the Blazer series to 48% in the Clipper series) vs a 1st round Clipper team Utah was heavily favored over.

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he led his team to its first finals appearance in its 23 year history and you are worried about field goal percentage


He was probably a better player in '97, but it was not a better playoff run.

He got 1 round farther in '97, but look at the big difference in the WCF those years. Stockton stepped up and had a huge series vs Houston and was really their MVP of that series while Stockton came up small in '92. Meanwhile, Malone had a great series in '92, but he didn't in '97.

But somehow the difference in Utah getting to the finals was Malone having a better playoff run in '97? Context is important.

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malone's 1998 playoff run was only marginally better than his 1997 one. some would say its impossible to separate them. the regular season was also quite close, but this time it is relatively easy to separate them, in this case 1997 was the stronger of the two years.

'98 playoff run was definitely better and the regular seasons were virtually identical with a bit of an edge to '98.

Stats and record ended up virtually identical in both years while his skill set and ability were no different as far as I can see.

But, Utah's record was brought down a bit by the 18 games Stockton missed to start the season when Utah was 11-7, and his production was brought down a bit in comparison to '97 because of those first 18 games without Stockton.

With Stockton in '98, his numbers were 27.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4 apg, 2.9 TO, 53.2 FG%, 60.1 TS% and his record was 50-13, a 65 win pace.

And this was with Stockton reduced from 35 mpg in '97 to 29 mpg in '98.

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what a joke here. a 2 man team who also had a top 3 shooting guard and a top 4 power forward, to go along with a top 2 center and a top 2 point guard wasn't enough to take 1 game away from chicago? not to mention dennis scott and his career year of 17.5ppg, 3.8rpg, 3.0apg, 1.1spg, and 59%ts


Orlando was very talented, but I'm talking about how those players played in that '96 series aside from the duo, and you're grossly overrating Anderson and Grant......top 3 and 4 at their positions?

First of all, they pretty much didn't have Grant that series so take him out of the equation.

Grant gave Orlando 0 points and 1 rebound in 28 minutes of play in game 1 before leaving with an injury and not returning in the series. Put Jon Koncak in his final NBA season in his place because he ended up being Orlando's power forward that series.

Now we have Nick Anderson, averages of 8.3 ppg and 5.3 rpg on 9/29 shooting(31%) and 3/15 on 3s(20%) before leaving towards the end of game 3 with an injury and missing game 4 altogether. Any scrub could duplicate that given the opportunity. Of course, this was made even worse by the fact that he was matched up with Michael Jordan at both ends.

Now we have Dennis Scott, the only one of Orlando's top 3 supporting players aside from their superstar duo who were healthy, but they might as well have had anyone in his place because he averaged 7.3 ppg, 2.5 rpg and 1.3 apg on 9/34 shooting(26.5%) and 3/19 on 3s(15.8%).

Chicago's 3rd, 4th and 5th leading scorers all scored more than Orlando's 3rd scorer.

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i didn't have any expectations on how many wins bryant would possibly end up with at the end of the regular season. odom proved to be a much better player without bryant in the lineup and who knows how he could have led them for a whole season. i don't deal with what ifs, i deal with what actually happened, and bryant season warrented him being ranked no higher than 19th

Kobe's regular season actually had him widely regarded as the best player in the game thanks to his league-leading 31.6 ppg, carrying the Lakers to a winning record and the playoffs despite injuries to virtually every key player of a cast that was limited to begin with and showing 2 completely different approaches. First getting everyone involved while still scoring quite a bit to help a bad team masquerade as a top Western Conference team for the first half of the season then carrying the team in an individual display few have shown capable of approaching when his coach told him to late in the season including four straight 50+ games immediately after Phil told him to carry the team, a 40.4 ppg month of March and a 36.8 ppg second half. In fact, in the 17 remaining games after Phil told Kobe to carry the team, Kobe averaged 40.3 ppg.

19th is a bad joke, only Tim Duncan had a case. Not Lebron with that hideous jump shot.

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again, kidd's playoffs was the difference here. he averaged a triple double for 12 games. defeated the favourite toronto raptors in the first round, before succumbing to the eventual eastern conference champion cavs in the semifinals. kidd averaged 15/11/11 with 2 steals.

The mighty Toronto Raptors? Oh, that changes everything! Kidd was playing with Vince Carter who averaged 25/6/4 in the series and Richard Jefferson who averaged 21.5 ppg in the series.

In all seriousness, it was a very impressive playoff run, but you're making 2 obvious problems. Both are problems you repeatedly make. One is getting caught up with the triple double statline, just look at '09 when Rajon Rondo put up virtually the same numbers in the playoffs in just his 3rd year. And another is overreacting to a small sample size of playoff games.

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you must not have watched any basketball games. past his prime yet averaging 25/5/7 in the regular season and 25/6/7 in the playoffs

So you use a statline to back up your claim that I haven't watched any games?

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that apparent "broken jumpshot" didn't stop the cavs from making the nba finals for the first time in franchise history, didn't stop the cavs defeating the higher seed detroit pistons in the conference finals, didn't stop lebron scoring the cavs last 25 or so points in game 5 of those same conference finals en route to a 48 point performance (with 9 rebounds and 7 assists), didn't stop the cavs coming back from a 0-2 deficit in those conference finals to take the next 4 games while lebron averaged 31/10/9/2. what a joke to mention bryant in the same breath as lebron that particular season.

The competition was horrible for a playoff run, the only real accomplishment was beating Detroit and that one miraculous game 5 gets that run grossly overrated. Lebron wasn't THAT good in '07. Being such a mediocre free throw shooter for his position and shooting disgusting percentages of 34% from 16-23 feet and 32% on 3s prevent this from even being a debate when you look at Kobe's complete skill set.

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terry and chandler contributed nowhere near to that of kidd

They contributed much more. Terry was their second best scorer by a wide margin and a very good shooter who came through huge in the clutch and was a capable ball-handler for them. Chandler anchored their defense, was their best rebounder and his finishing ability allowed him to score about as much as Kidd on vastly superior efficiency.

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'82 magic was the best player on a 57 win team and a team that steamrolled through the playoffs to the tune of a 4-0 sweep of the suns, 4-0 sweep of the spurs, and 4-2 demolishing of 58 win, dr j led sixers. a playoff record of 12-2. magic averaged 18.6ppg, an incredible 9.6rpg, 9.5apg, 2.7spg (led the league), and 54%fg in the regular season and 17.4ppg, 11.3rpg, 9.3apg, 2.9spg, and 53%fg in the playoffs.

Kareem was the best player on that 57 win team that dominated the playoffs. Even in a series where his numbers were down like the finals you can see how huge of an impact the double teams he drew and his shot blocking made. Those were things Magic simply couldn't match. His lack of a real half court skill set at that point was the difference since he wouldn't show the outside shot until 2 seasons later in '84 and he wouldn't show the post game until 5 seasons later in '87. His passing and rebounding for his position were outstanding, but having Kareem as the guy they could truly rely on to create something at anytime in the half court and make a defensive impact Magic could never dream of put a significant gap between the 2 players. All of the triple doubles in the world won't change that.

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magic was better than '81 kareem every year, even rookie magic johnson was better than '81 abdul-jabbar.

at rookie Magic. Where the fuck do you get this shit?
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:56 AM   #180
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Barkley was being mentioned as a peer of Bird, Magic, and Jordan while they were all playing:

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Sixers' star has 3 peers: Magic, Bird and Jordan

PHILADELPHIA — The season is less than a quarter over and, already, the hallowed of the hoop world are making way for another to join their ranks.

Before this season started, there were three certifiable, indisputable, non-negotiable big-impact playing legends: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. To that exalted list you can now add Charles Barkley. Maybe it was an oversight not to have included him before. Now, there is no doubt.

“He has always been up there as far as I’m concerned,” lauded Bird, who will bring his Boston Celtics into the Spectrum Tuesday to meet Barkley’s 76ers. “He comes to play. He plays hard. And he puts numbers on the board. He’s just a great basketball player.”

Last year, his third in the league, Barkley broke through and made the second All-Star team, won the rebounding title and participated in his first All-Star Game. He has picked everything up a notch this year to the point where he is the clubhouse leader for Most Valuable Player.

He is second in scoring, and first in field-goal percentage as well as ferocity. Frankly, the Sixers would be lost without him. And they know it.

“I’ve been involved in this game for 15 seasons and I do not make rash decisions,” said Hubie Brown, the former New York Knicks coach and now doing television commentary for 76er games. “But after watching this man and looking at him as a basketball player, he is in that category with Bird, Magic and Jordan, with people who fill up every stat.”

And, Brown noted, “I have noticed one thing about him this year. I haven’t heard the word ‘immature’ mentioned when people are talking about him.”

Barkley, incredibly, has turned from trash talker to eminence grise, practically overnight. Whereas, last year he ripped Bird, Johnny Most, his teammates (“wimps and complainers”) and talked with the same pugnacity he showed on the court, this year he is Churchillian by comparison.

He was composed, patient and cooperative after the Sixers’ 124-87 defeat Sunday (although he did try to smash a chair during the game). Two years ago, the Boston Garden might have been razed in a Barkley tantrum.

“I’m still disappointed, but inside, I’ve learned to live with things like this,” he said. “Hey, these are my guys. I’ve got to keep them alive. I just have to remind them this is not the end of the world.”

This is his team. In actuality, it was his team last year, but it also was Julius Erving’s farewell season, so, Barkley was, we now see, a statesman-in-waiting.

So far this season, he has led the team in scoring in 19 of the 20 games, in rebounding in 15 of the 20 games, and even joined his teammates in a Christmas video singing “Santa Claus Is Coming To Town.”

He is averaging 29.1 points and 12.6 rebounds a game. He is shooting 62 percent from the field, 65 percent from two-point range. The NBA record is 72.7 percent, set by Wilt Chamberlain in 1972-73.

He is playing an average of 38.9 minutes a game. He is second in assists to the estimable Maurice Cheeks. And, remember, he is doing it all in the trenches at the amazing height of 6-5 on his tiptoes, and with his customary, considerable (260 pounds) girth.

“I find it uncanny his ability to take the punishment he takes and get to the basket, get the free throw or make the pass. He’s double- and triple-teamed on every possession,” Brown said. “You really have to love his unselfishness and his ability to make that pass on the break. If you’re free, he’ll get you the ball.

“And,” Brown continued, “the thing you really appreciate about Charles Barkley as a coach is the shooting percentage. And you underscore that with an asterisk for his threes (three-point shots). That takes courage for a man of that size to do that. You don’t think of him as a perimeter player.”

Sunday represented Barkley’s worst outing of the season. Eighteen points, two rebounds, four turnovers. What had preceded that game, however, was a remarkable stretch in which he personally carried the Sixers to six victories in seven games and included quotes from his rivals and coaches usually reserved for the likes of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Against Portland, he had 38 points and 24 rebounds in 42 minutes. Portland Trail Blazers Coach Mike Schuler called Barkley “a man among boys.” He had 32 points, 14 rebounds and six steals against the San Antonio Spurs.

But the game people still are talking about was last Thursday in New York against the Knicks. Barkley played 46 minutes and had 40 points, 17 rebounds, five assists and three steals. He had 19 points in the first quarter, 27 at the half, and then scored 11 points in the final 4:08 after the Knicks had cut a 16-point deficit to 91-86.

“He has had some special games, but that one in New York was one of his best,” said Sixer Coach Matt Guokas. “He just dominated. He scored when he had to, got the rebounds, did everything. It was one of the greatest performances I’ve seen, and I’ve seen a lot.”

The Knicks, too, were impressed. Knicks Coach Rick Pitino said if Barkley wasn’t the best player in the league, “he’s close to it.” And rookie Mark Jackson, who has played against Bird, added, “I can truthfully, honestly say that he’s the best basketball player I’ve faced. You can do nothing but admire him.”

Barkley purports to take all this in stride. He enjoys the limelight, the money (more than $1 million a year) and, above all, the games. The competition.

“Offensively, I think I’ve improved some this season. Obviously the experience helps,” he said. “And that carries over to the other areas. I’m playing with more confidence too. If I take a jump shot now, I feel like I’m going to hit it, not like I’m just trying to get rid of the ball.”

Does he feel at all honored to be included in such august company as Bird, Magic and Jordan?

“Sure. They’re all great competitors,” he said. “But everyone has their own opinion. I never worry about what anyone else says.”

No one ever said any such thing about Malone.
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