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Old 09-05-2012, 11:05 PM   #256
ShaqAttack3234
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
lol we are getting close? nash was always close to kidd in '07, nothing has changed. the correct, and only answer is kidd is the best point guard in the league, nash was second, davis third, parker fourth, and arenas fifth.

Kidd and Baron were close. Nash was far ahead of every point guard. I was never a fan of Arenas, but he was a really good player back then.

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the magic had a great bunch of role players that year. they were also one of the best long range bombers in the league and had a plethora of shooters in the league including pat garrity, mike miller, and darrell armstrong. they also had a great playoff from drew gooden who stepped much more than mcgrady. putting up empty stats on a team that is barely over .500 won't get you ranked with the best in the league. mcgrady was ranked 8th.

He had Miller for the first half of the season, Orlando played their best ball after trading him.

They went 16-11 after the trade with a cast of Gordan Giricek, rookie Drew Gooden, Pat Garrity, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong and Shawn Kemp who gad given up blow in favor of an addiction to big macs and probably eaten half of his 2 dozen kids.

His cast was horrible, any perimeter player except for maybe prime Jordan would struggle to get them over .500. Doesn't matter if it was Kobe or Wade, the results would be no better.

But T-Mac's "empty" stats took that trash to a 7th game vs Detroit. This included a game where T-Mac scored 46 of Orlando's 77 points vs Detroit and he shot 62% while the rest of the team shot 26%. that's how bad that orlando team was. And that was right after his game 1 vs Detroit which remains one of my all-time favorite T-Mac games.

A big reason Orlando shot a good % on 3s is that T-Mac took most of them taking 6.5 per game, making an amazing 2.3 at a phenomenal 39%. Not to mention T-Mac's excellent playmaking which set Orlando's shooters up.

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allen iverson was also abe to create more shots than lebron


Anywhere near as efficiently as Kobe did? Besides, peak Iverson was a better scorer than '07 Lebron, arguably a better or at least comparable player.

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being in a ball-dominant role is less relevant to me. the cavs needed the ball to be in lebron's hand to have the best chance to win games, so thats what happened.

But it can still make stats misleading, despite this, Kobe's numbers were better than Lebron's and the Lakers offense was much better than Cleveland's offense.

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but which one did you use?

ESPN, I think, it came up first on a google search for Kobe Bryant. Why?

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filth at its finest. lebron was top 2 at his position in terms of rebounds per game, and one of the best defenders at that spot too. his second best player from the regular season shot 35% in the playoffs.

Lebron's rebounding was fine, but his numbers have often been misleading, look at how few offensive rebounds he's gotten. It'sonly been the past year or so that he's genuinely impressed me as a rebounder. 6.7 rpg for a SF playing 40 mpg is nothing special.

Lebron's defense was nothing special in '07. he wasn't a bad defender like his first 3 years, but he wasn't great year. Pretty average.

Lebron himself shot just 41.6% in those playoffs, so why are you bringing up %? Especially when lebron shot that same 35% in the finals with almost 6 TO per game.

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more impressive as a facilitator just say more apg you loser


That's only a small part of how I judge playmaking. Assists like all stats, are circumstantial. Watching Kobe's game management, when to get his teammates involved, when to take over ect was the best I've seen him. Rivaled only by the '01 playoffs.

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once again your argument seems to be stats, which is not surprising in the least. bryant took on a bigger role and led the lakers to 65 wins, and stepped up alot more in the playoffs. things that are important, not apg.

So now my argument is apg when he's topped his '08 apg numerous times? Kobe didn't take a bigger role in '09, he had an improved Pau Gasol for a full season rather than 26-27 games, he had Bynum for 50 games, instead of 35, and unlike '08, he played with Gasol and Ariza was there for the entire season.

The only advantage for his playoffs in '09 is the finals, but anyone with a brain can see that it's because the '08 celtics were clearly better than the '09 Magic and Kobe's '09 team was clearly better than his '08 team. Kobe had played better through his first 3 rounds in the '08 playoffs, he was truly unbelievable, achieving his full potential as an all around player.

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more hearsay bs. once again i deal with what actually happened, where as you like to dabble in things such as what ifs.

Do you even know what hearsay means? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean hypotheticals.And yes, I do look at more than just the result because it's necessary to properly credit them. I look at what happened and evaluate it the best I can.

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bryant stepping up like he did was the main reason the lakers romped to a 15-1 win loss record. bryant was the most impressive playoff performer out of everyone who participated in the 2001 playoffs, including teammate shaquille o'neal in his second most peak season. no other playoff run came close.

Kobe was NOT the best player in the '01 playoffs, he was second best behind Shaq. You can say he stepped up more compared to his regular season and I might agree, but Shaq was their best and most valuable player of the '01 playoffs.

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i respect that too, and i have him as the best player in the league in 1977, but unfortunately for your argument, champions hold alot of weight when official rankings take place, and kareem leading the bucks to the '71 championship (while losing only 2 games throughout the playoffs), after a 66-16 regular season is far too much to overcome.

For your rankings, not mine. Champions seem to be the best player more often than not, but there are exceptions as you acknowledged with '77 Kareem. As it is, we're both ranking Kareem over Bill Walton who won a title that year while sweeping Kareem's Lakers. tell me your thought process behind ranking Kareem 1st.

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lol so he proved that he could win championships in the past so he gets a pass for getting swept out of the playoffs just because he puts up some points? . yes it was nice series vs golden state, good enough to contribute to being ranked as the best player in the league.

Considering he won championships before and after and showed no signs of slowing down in the '77 playoffs, yes, I don't doubt that he was at a championship level, typically, the best player in the league is.

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player performance is very important. but if you struggle to lead your team anywhere in the playoffs, which is the true test of greatness, no matter what numbers you put up you will more than likely not be ranked as the best player in the league.

But that isn't the case with '77 Kareem since we both ranked him as the best in the league.

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definately. picking the best player on the championship team and naming him the best player is just silly.

Exactly, anyone could do that.

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but compared to the 1971 bucks, not very successful at all.

And that wasn't a 1 man team. They had Oscar, Bob Dandridge and Jon mcGlocklin.

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this is correct. but winning a championship elevated him to 4th overall in '89, and 6th in '90.

Definitely couldn't put him that high myself, but you're not the first I've seen do it.

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i didn't say that that man ranked the scoring leaders as the best player, i just said he only ranked players after checking the leaders.


What's the difference? And I don't know where every player I've ranked as the best finished among scoring leaders. Bird in '84 and '86 for example, Moses in '83, Duncan in '05...I have no idea where these players finished among the scoring leaders off the top of my head.

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you look at youtube for ranking players?

I obviously didn't see that game on youtube since I uploaded it, but all games are what I base most of my rankings on.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:32 AM   #257
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Gotta go with Barkley on this one. Just all around more dynamic game than The Mailman. Barkley from 89-94, name me a more dominant power forward, ever? Tim Duncan? Thats it. No one remembers how mean Charles was, either. Just a tough, mean, explosive cat. Youll never see Malone do a 1 on 3 full court fastbreak and I mean, FAST break. The Mailman was efficient cuz he had Stockton feeding him off a high screen set for 8 or 9 years. Might as well have been gym practice for those two. Barkley was a one man freight train locomotive. And dont think he wouldnt bully guys twice his size on the boards either. The closest weve witnessed to Barkleys prime in terms of ferocity and physical power at the forward position in recent years is Lebron James.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:48 AM   #258
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by LA Lakers
Gotta go with Barkley on this one. Just all around more dynamic game than The Mailman. Barkley from 89-94, name me a more dominant power forward, ever? Tim Duncan? Thats it. No one remembers how mean Charles was, either. Just a tough, mean, explosive cat. Youll never see Malone do a 1 on 3 full court fastbreak and I mean, FAST break. The Mailman was efficient cuz he had Stockton feeding him off a high screen set for 8 or 9 years. Might as well have been gym practice for those two. Barkley was a one man freight train locomotive. And dont think he wouldnt bully guys twice his size on the boards either. The closest weve witnessed to Barkleys prime in terms of ferocity and physical power at the forward position in recent years is Lebron James.

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Old 09-10-2012, 06:26 AM   #259
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Malone and stockton worked well together coz they knew eachothers game so well its not like malone just stood in the corner waiting for the pass he set picks and they anticipated so well, did barkley magically become a star working with an excellent pg in kj both in their primes
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:48 AM   #260
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Kidd and Baron were close. Nash was far ahead of every point guard. I was never a fan of Arenas, but he was a really good player back then.
nash was a great player, top 7 in the league infact, overall he was the best player on the suns team, but in the regular season shawn marion was the suns best player, and in the playoffs amare stoudemire was the suns best player.

kidd on the other hand was the nets best player in the regular season, and easily their best player in the playoffs by a huge margin. kidd's play in the playoffs is enough to separate the two.

arenas was a good player, but still not better than parker and davis, let alone kidd.
Quote:
He had Miller for the first half of the season, Orlando played their best ball after trading him.

They went 16-11 after the trade with a cast of Gordan Giricek, rookie Drew Gooden, Pat Garrity, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong and Shawn Kemp who gad given up blow in favor of an addiction to big macs and probably eaten half of his 2 dozen kids.

His cast was horrible, any perimeter player except for maybe prime Jordan would struggle to get them over .500. Doesn't matter if it was Kobe or Wade, the results would be no better.

But T-Mac's "empty" stats took that trash to a 7th game vs Detroit. This included a game where T-Mac scored 46 of Orlando's 77 points vs Detroit and he shot 62% while the rest of the team shot 26%. that's how bad that orlando team was. And that was right after his game 1 vs Detroit which remains one of my all-time favorite T-Mac games.

A big reason Orlando shot a good % on 3s is that T-Mac took most of them taking 6.5 per game, making an amazing 2.3 at a phenomenal 39%. Not to mention T-Mac's excellent playmaking which set Orlando's shooters up.
heh, that shawn kemp thing made me giggle.

there was only 8 games that separated the orlando magic from the detroit pistons, so taking that team to 7 games was seemed more amazing if you just look at it as a 1v8, but if you look at the games disparity then it becomes less stunning. on top of this only 1 team in th east managed to win more than 49 games and the best team won 50 games. a nice time to win some games an an eastern conference team.

mcgrady will take most of the blame for letting the magic lose a 3-1 lead in that pistons series. tmac went cold in the last 3 games, shooting a paltry 36%, including a laughable 7-24 effort in game 7, and turning the ball over almost 4 times per contest, meanwhile teammate drew gooden stepped up big with his 14 points and 13 rebounds per game and was the magic's best player in the final game.

any of the top 7 players with that sort of roster around them will win atleast as many games as tracy mcgrady did with the orlando magic that year.
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Anywhere near as efficiently as Kobe did? Besides, peak Iverson was a better scorer than '07 Lebron, arguably a better or at least comparable player.
you were talking about creating shots. peak iverson wasn't as good as '07 lebron, but on the other hand he was easily better than '07 bryant.
Quote:
But it can still make stats misleading, despite this, Kobe's numbers were better than Lebron's and the Lakers offense was much better than Cleveland's offense.
lebron had better numbers. and the lakers having a better offense means that lebron did much better to succeed in a trash system.
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ESPN, I think, it came up first on a google search for Kobe Bryant. Why?
i dunno, just making conversation
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Lebron's rebounding was fine, but his numbers have often been misleading, look at how few offensive rebounds he's gotten. It'sonly been the past year or so that he's genuinely impressed me as a rebounder. 6.7 rpg for a SF playing 40 mpg is nothing special.
nobody else is worthy or able to play 40mpg, so if nobody else does it there is a reason behind it.

lol so he has impressed you the last few years with his rebounds? 0.9 offensive rebounds per game in '10 impressed you, while his 1.1 offensive rebounds per game in '07 was nothing special
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ebron's defense was nothing special in '07. he wasn't a bad defender like his first 3 years, but he wasn't great year. Pretty average.
he played a huge part in the cavs defensive schemes in '07, not only averaging almost 7 defensive rebounds per game and picking up almost 2 steals, but also showed evidence of great overall defense including great at transition defense, good post defense, and exceptional at stopping drives to the hoop and getting a hand in shooters faces.
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Lebron himself shot just 41.6% in those playoffs, so why are you bringing up %? Especially when lebron shot that same 35% in the finals with almost 6 TO per game.
simple, 42% is better than 35%. and when that 35% is from your second best player and you still make it to the finals it is some achievement.
Quote:
So now my argument is apg when he's topped his '08 apg numerous times? Kobe didn't take a bigger role in '09, he had an improved Pau Gasol for a full season rather than 26-27 games, he had Bynum for 50 games, instead of 35, and unlike '08, he played with Gasol and Ariza was there for the entire season.

The only advantage for his playoffs in '09 is the finals, but anyone with a brain can see that it's because the '08 celtics were clearly better than the '09 Magic and Kobe's '09 team was clearly better than his '08 team. Kobe had played better through his first 3 rounds in the '08 playoffs, he was truly unbelievable, achieving his full potential as an all around player.
bynum wasn't even as good as his '08 self and was a non factor in the playoffs, and the lakes had a lot more depth in '08.

bryant had a better regular season in '08, but was much better in the '09 playoffs. he led the lakers to the third most wins in their 60 year history, was the best and most impressive player out of all participants in the 2009 nba playoffs, led the lakers to a 16-7 record in the playoffs, and to top it off, was finals most valuable player with averges of 32.4ppg, 5.6rpg, 7.4apg, 1.4spg, and 1.4bpg after a 34/6/6 conference finals. it is just too easy to conclude that '09 bryant was better.
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Do you even know what hearsay means? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't mean hypotheticals.And yes, I do look at more than just the result because it's necessary to properly credit them. I look at what happened and evaluate it the best I can.
do you even know what the letters nba stand for? you aren't doing a good job of evalating such things as the nba, infact maybe it is time, with your best interests at heart, to re-evaluate your evaluating skills.
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Kobe was NOT the best player in the '01 playoffs, he was second best behind Shaq. You can say he stepped up more compared to his regular season and I might agree, but Shaq was their best and most valuable player of the '01 playoffs.
can you read? when did i say kobe was he best player in the '01 playoffs? he definately stepped up more than shaq and was more impressive.
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For your rankings, not mine. Champions seem to be the best player more often than not, but there are exceptions as you acknowledged with '77 Kareem. As it is, we're both ranking Kareem over Bill Walton who won a title that year while sweeping Kareem's Lakers. tell me your thought process behind ranking Kareem 1st.
well kareem was the most valuable player by one of the largest margins known to man, and played great in the playoffs. kareem was quite clearly the best player in '77
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Considering he won championships before and after and showed no signs of slowing down in the '77 playoffs, yes, I don't doubt that he was at a championship level, typically, the best player in the league is.
if you are at championship level you win a championship.
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But that isn't the case with '77 Kareem since we both ranked him as the best in the league.
kareem atleast made some noise in the playoffs, where as in '71 he set records.
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And that wasn't a 1 man team. They had Oscar, Bob Dandridge and Jon mcGlocklin.
you can't be a 1 man team if you finish with the best record in the league, like the lakers did in '77.

Last edited by Shep : 09-10-2012 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:09 AM   #261
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

You two seriously need your own thread lol
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:30 PM   #262
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
You two seriously need your own thread lol


This thread could die if Shep would just admit he's wrong.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:40 PM   #263
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Malone was better and I think Malone has a better argument over Barkley at their peaks than what most people think.

Barkley was probably a better box-score player but that doesn't mean he was necessarily the better player.

I hate how underrated Malone has been. You would think with the way most people talk about him around here that he couldn't even create his own shot which is completely false.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:58 PM   #264
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Barkley was Better from 1985-86 to 1994-95. Even I Admit Malone Was Better after 1995 but In Barkley`s Prime and Health, There Was No Contest On Who Was The Best PF in the Legaue.

1- Barkley was a Better Pure Scorer: Post Player and Mid Range Scorer: He Shot Less and Was More Effective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Season Career

Barkley shot 58.13% Two-Point FG at 21.6 PPG on 12.9...Two Point FGAs Pg (Season)

Malone shot 51.9% Two-Point FG FG at 24.7 PPG on 17.5...Two-Point FGAs PG PG (Season)

Play-Offs Career: "Malone Shot Over 50% For Only 3 Play-Off Runs":

Barkley shot 55.13% FG at 22.5 PPG on 14.5 ...Two-Point FGAs PG (Play-Offs)

Malone shot 46.6% Two-Point FG at 24.6 PPG on 19.3...Two-Point FGAs PG (Play-Offs)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2- Barkley Was The Better Skilled Player and Ballhandler. Could Go Coast to Coast on His Own.

3- Barkley was the Better Offensive Creator

4- Barkley was the Better Rebonder

5- Barkley was the Better Passer and Assister

6- Barkley was The Better Team Defender and Stealer (Highest SPG Avg for a PF)

7- And In His Phily Days...He Was a Better Shot Blocker and Off Man Defender.

8- Most Doubled Player Prior to Shaq

9- Called the "Zone Buster"

10- Created More Ilegal Defenses in the NBA

11- Like Shaq...Needed More Defensive Rotations

12- Forced Rule Change "5 Second Back to the Basket Rule"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malone was a Better FT Shooter and Post Defender. Thats About IT
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:05 PM   #265
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by D.J.
This thread could die if Shep would just admit he's wrong.

He is a "Barkley Hater"...Like all Jazz Fans. So Thats Not Possible.
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:08 PM   #266
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Mound
Barkley was Better from 1985-86 to 1994-95. Even I Admit Malone Was Better after 1995 but In Barkley`s Prime and Health, There Was No Contest On Who Was The Best PF in the Legaue.

1- Barkley was a Better Pure Scorer: Post Player and Mid Range Scorer: He Shot Less and Was More Effective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Season Career

Barkley shot 58.13% Two-Point FG at 21.6 PPG on 12.9...Two Point FGAs Pg (Season)

Malone shot 51.9% Two-Point FG FG at 24.7 PPG on 17.5...Two-Point FGAs PG PG (Season)

Play-Offs Career: "Malone Shot Over 50% For Only 3 Play-Off Runs":

Barkley shot 55.13% FG at 22.5 PPG on 14.5 ...Two-Point FGAs PG (Play-Offs)

Malone shot 46.6% Two-Point FG at 24.6 PPG on 19.3...Two-Point FGAs PG (Play-Offs)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2- Barkley Was The Better Skilled Player and Ballhandler. Could Go Coast to Coast on His Own.

3- Barkley was the Better Offensive Creator

4- Barkley was the Better Rebonder

5- Barkley was the Better Passer and Assister

6- Barkley was The Better Team Defender and Stealer (Highest SPG Avg for a PF)

7- And In His Phily Days...He Was a Better Shot Blocker and Off Man Defender.

8- Most Doubled Player Prior to Shaq

9- Called the "Zone Buster"

10- Created More Ilegal Defenses in the NBA

11- Like Shaq...Needed More Defensive Rotations

12- Forced Rule Change "5 Second Back to the Basket Rule"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malone was a Better FT Shooter and Post Defender. Thats About IT

How About Including What Barkley Shot from the 3P Line in that Stretch? Are you Just Going to Conveniently Leave Out that he Shot 27% (403/1505) From 3P In that Stretch?

Why Should We Just Omit and Ignore a Part of His game That he Felt the Need to Inefficiently Include on a Heavy Basis?
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:29 PM   #267
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderStruk022
How About Including What Barkley Shot from the 3P Line in that Stretch? Are you Just Going to Conveniently Leave Out that he Shot 27% (403/1505) From 3P In that Stretch?

Why Should We Just Omit and Ignore a Part of His game That he Felt the Need to Inefficiently Include on a Heavy Basis?

The Point Is To Show Who Was a Better Post Player and Mid Range Scorer. Thats it...And its Barkley for Sure.

The Colors Are There So One Can See Faster the Point Im Trying to Prove.

Barkley was Bored of Dominating Inside that he Began Shooting 3s. Even I Hated It. Still Doesn`t Change the Fact that Inside Only Shaq Was Better In the Last 25-30 Years. So

BTW: Those Stats I Discovered ARE FOR HIS WHOLE CAREER. Not a Stretch

Last edited by Round Mound : 09-10-2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:44 PM   #268
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderStruk022
How About Including What Barkley Shot from the 3P Line in that Stretch? Are you Just Going to Conveniently Leave Out that he Shot 27% (403/1505) From 3P In that Stretch?

Why Should We Just Omit and Ignore a Part of His game That he Felt the Need to Inefficiently Include on a Heavy Basis?


Because Malone rarely shot three pointers, so you can't compare them. Malone attempted only 310 and oddly enough, shot a very close percentage to Barkley's over their careers(27.4% to 26.6% in favor of Malone).
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:15 PM   #269
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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The Point Is To Show Who Was a Better Post Player and Mid Range Scorer. Thats it...And its Barkley for Sure.

How do you know Barkley is the better mid-range scorer when you don't list the numbers from mid-range ?

I don't even think that data is available and I doubt anybody saying that, but that stats you give are so arbitrary. The 2 point shots could be anything within the arc and Barkley was a much more of a post player than a mid-range scorer.

Plus you need to take into account how Barkley was defended for his jump shots/drives/post game.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:26 PM   #270
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
How do you know Barkley is the better mid-range scorer when you don't list the numbers from mid-range ?

I don't even think that data is available and I doubt anybody saying that, but that stats you give are so arbitrary. The 2 point shots could be anything within the arc and Barkley was a much more of a post player than a mid-range scorer.

Plus you need to take into account how Barkley was defended for his jump shots/drives/post game.

Cause I Saw Both of Them Play When Barkley was Healthy unlike Most of The Kiddos Here That Saw a Fat Overweight Back and Knee Injured Chuck in the Late 90s.

Its True Barkey was More of a Post Player but He Also Had a Great Mid Range Shot...He Worked With Dantley Alot (Malone developed a Good Post Game As He Got Older but Was Never as Effective as Chuck`s).

Barkley was Many Times Doubled In the Mid Range Region Unlike Malone Who Was Doubled in the Post as was Barkley even More...But Malone Was Not Doubled Far Range Like Chuck Was Doubled. See The Thing Is Barkley`s Skillset Presented More of a Problem because he Could Not Just Hit Post Game Shots or Mid Range Jumpers (within a Stand like Bird) but Also Drive Past You in a Second 1 on 1. He Could Also Go Coast to Coast and Rumble his Way Onto the Basket. He Was More Dangerous Offensively.

See if a Player Shoots that Well Inside 3-Point Line You Might Be Thinking It He was over 7`0 ft and 280 lbs and All Where Dunks or Putbacks Rebounds? But Thats Not Just What He Did. To Have a High 2-Point FG% and Score Alot In It...You Must Be Versatile Enough Offensively.

Like This Video Shows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMFTQFvO_8

If You Don`t Double Barkley 8-12 FT Away from the Rim...This Happened.

Last edited by Round Mound : 09-10-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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