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Old 09-10-2012, 06:29 PM   #271
Round Mound
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J.
Because Malone rarely shot three pointers, so you can't compare them. Malone attempted only 310 and oddly enough, shot a very close percentage to Barkley's over their careers(27.4% to 26.6% in favor of Malone).

Barkley Shot Way More Threes and Wasn`t a Specialist Thats Why is FG% Dropped BUT.... Compared To Karl He Still Was More Effective.

What Im Pointing Out is Mid Range and Post Play FG%. That is, Inside the 3-Point Line....Where Barkley`s 2-Point FG% and 2-Point FGs Made (over 21 and 22 PPG) WHERE MUCH HIGHER IN % AND EFFECTIVENSS Compared to Karl. Thats All.

Last edited by Round Mound : 09-10-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:30 PM   #272
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Charles Barkley is right.

He's one of the 5 most dominant scorers of all time (Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Kareem, Barkley), better rebounder, more doubles teams, etc.

Not a contest to me. Karl Malone gives you longevity. Charles Barkley gives you more dominance. I take dominance over longevity.

Last edited by BEAST Griffin : 09-10-2012 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:23 AM   #273
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
nash was a great player, top 7 in the league infact, overall he was the best player on the suns team, but in the regular season shawn marion was the suns best player, and in the playoffs amare stoudemire was the suns best player.


Marion was not the Suns best player. Great complementary player, versatile and valuable at both ends, but not on Nash's level. Nash was the key to everything the Suns did. Obviously running the break and setting up finishers like Amare and Marion, or making their half court offense work in screen/rolls with Amare, probing and keeping his dribble to either find a slasher like Marion or a shooter in the corner, and the ability to score in multiple ways himself when he wanted made him that much more effective. He was up there with the best pure shooters, there was no one I had more confidence in when he took a shot, whether it was a pull up 3, shooting over a bigger player when a switch forced a mismatch, the ability to make off balance 15 footers and shoot with accuracy from almost everywhere.

Amare did step up more than Nash in the playoffs. Nash played well as usual, but not as noticeable compared to his usual level as Nash.

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kidd on the other hand was the nets best player in the regular season, and easily their best player in the playoffs by a huge margin. kidd's play in the playoffs is enough to separate the two.

Carter was clearly the Nets best player during the regular season, though Kidd was easily better during the playoffs.

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arenas was a good player, but still not better than parker and davis, let alone kidd.

He was definitely better than Parker, and similar to Davis. Arenas was bordering on superstar level at that time and simply a more dangerous player than Kidd was at 34 years old.

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heh, that shawn kemp thing made me giggle.

It's sad remembering Kemp on the Sonics dunking over everyone, blocking shots and grabbing rebounds left and right and then in Orlando, waddling onto the court, taking a few 20 footers, getting out of breath and waddling back over to the bench.

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there was only 8 games that separated the orlando magic from the detroit pistons, so taking that team to 7 games was seemed more amazing if you just look at it as a 1v8, but if you look at the games disparity then it becomes less stunning. on top of this only 1 team in th east managed to win more than 49 games and the best team won 50 games. a nice time to win some games an an eastern conference team.

Even so, Detroit was a much better team. They had Ben Wallace in addition to a well-rounded starting 5 and an excellent bench.

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mcgrady will take most of the blame for letting the magic lose a 3-1 lead in that pistons series. tmac went cold in the last 3 games, shooting a paltry 36%, including a laughable 7-24 effort in game 7, and turning the ball over almost 4 times per contest, meanwhile teammate drew gooden stepped up big with his 14 points and 13 rebounds per game and was the magic's best player in the final game.

Fair enough, T-Mac's series certainly wasn't all good, but it wasn't just bad either. He had the unbelievable start to the series and then the disappointing finish after Detroit switched Tayshaun Prince onto him. T-Mac averaged 36/6/5, 2.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 52 FG% and 40 3P% and 3 made threes to get Orlando up 3-1.

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any of the top 7 players with that sort of roster around them will win atleast as many games as tracy mcgrady did with the orlando magic that year.

I seriously doubt it.

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you were talking about creating shots. peak iverson wasn't as good as '07 lebron, but on the other hand he was easily better than '07 bryant.


'07 Kobe did what Iverson did the thing best better than Iverson did, and he was also a better playmaker. There's no real argument for Iverson here.

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lebron had better numbers. and the lakers having a better offense means that lebron did much better to succeed in a trash system.

Lebron didn't have better numbers, he had small advantages in assists(+0.6) and rebounds(+1) which isn't enough to make up for Kobe's big scoring advantage(+4.3)

As far as their systems? It's questionable whether Lebron could succeed in the triangle. He hasn't shown much of an ability to play without the ball. Only this year did he seem to improve a bit.

The Lakers across the board were a much better offensive team than the Cavs. The Lakers were 5th in ppg, 6th in FG% and 7th in offensive rating while the Cavs were 18th in offensive rating, 19th in ppg and 24th in FG%.

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nobody else is worthy or able to play 40mpg, so if nobody else does it there is a reason behind it.

lol so he has impressed you the last few years with his rebounds? 0.9 offensive rebounds per game in '10 impressed you, while his 1.1 offensive rebounds per game in '07 was nothing special


When did I say that? I've always said that Lebron's rebounding was the most overrated part of his game until this year. I noticed his rebounding a lot more, and not surprisingly, he averaged a phenomenal 9.7 rpg during the playoffs and 2.3 offensive boards.

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he played a huge part in the cavs defensive schemes in '07, not only averaging almost 7 defensive rebounds per game and picking up almost 2 steals, but also showed evidence of great overall defense including great at transition defense, good post defense, and exceptional at stopping drives to the hoop and getting a hand in shooters faces.

It seems that you're describing Lebron the last few years, particularly in Miami.

And since you like small sample sizes(Odom without Kobe), how about the 4 games Cleveland played without Lebron when several players put up better numbers than usual, the team went 3-1 with a massive point differential, the Cavs had 5 players in double figures in all 4 games including 8 in their 124-97 win vs the Warriors?

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simple, 42% is better than 35%. and when that 35% is from your second best player and you still make it to the finals it is some achievement.

It's an achievement, just one that doesn't impress me compared to other things I've seen from elite players, including Lebron himself.

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bynum wasn't even as good as his '08 self and was a non factor in the playoffs, and the lakes had a lot more depth in '08.


Correct about Bynum, but as far as depth, they had pretty much the same roster, except improved versions of Gasol and Ariza for the whole season. The role players shooting so much better had a lot to do with Kobe doing the best job of his career as a playmaker.

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bryant had a better regular season in '08, but was much better in the '09 playoffs. he led the lakers to the third most wins in their 60 year history, was the best and most impressive player out of all participants in the 2009 nba playoffs, led the lakers to a 16-7 record in the playoffs, and to top it off, was finals most valuable player with averges of 32.4ppg, 5.6rpg, 7.4apg, 1.4spg, and 1.4bpg after a 34/6/6 conference finals. it is just too easy to conclude that '09 bryant was better.

Ok, so you admit his '08 regular season was better, so that requires no further discussion.

Regarding the playoffs, I'll concede that his '09 run has a case for his best playoff run because of consistency through all 4 rounds, but his play through 3 rounds was clearly more impressive in 2008.

And there was a massive difference between the '08 and '09 finals. Not just Kobe's performance, but his opponent as well as the help he got.

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do you even know what the letters nba stand for? you aren't doing a good job of evalating such things as the nba, infact maybe it is time, with your best interests at heart, to re-evaluate your evaluating skills.

Nice job changing the subject.

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can you read? when did i say kobe was he best player in the '01 playoffs? he definately stepped up more than shaq and was more impressive.

Ok, my mistake, I interpreted more impressive as meaning better.

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well kareem was the most valuable player by one of the largest margins known to man, and played great in the playoffs. kareem was quite clearly the best player in '77

No disagreement here.

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if you are at championship level you win a championship.

So if you consider Kareem to have been clearly better than Walton who won a title then how was Kareem not at a championship level?

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kareem atleast made some noise in the playoffs, where as in '71 he set records.

His team did, but his individual play was nothing special by his standards. His finals was pretty dominant, though.

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you can't be a 1 man team if you finish with the best record in the league, like the lakers did in '77.

There's never literally been a 1 man team, it's a figure of speech. But he really didn't have quality teammates outside of Cazzie Russell, Lucius Allen and Kermit Washington, and he got the best record with Washington out for 29 games. Washington was his only help inside and on the boards.

It was a really flawed team and a team with limited talent to get the best record.
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:46 AM   #274
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Marion was not the Suns best player. Great complementary player, versatile and valuable at both ends, but not on Nash's level. Nash was the key to everything the Suns did. Obviously running the break and setting up finishers like Amare and Marion, or making their half court offense work in screen/rolls with Amare, probing and keeping his dribble to either find a slasher like Marion or a shooter in the corner, and the ability to score in multiple ways himself when he wanted made him that much more effective. He was up there with the best pure shooters, there was no one I had more confidence in when he took a shot, whether it was a pull up 3, shooting over a bigger player when a switch forced a mismatch, the ability to make off balance 15 footers and shoot with accuracy from almost everywhere.

Amare did step up more than Nash in the playoffs. Nash played well as usual, but not as noticeable compared to his usual level as Nash.
marion was the suns best player in the regular season. he would take the opposing teams best offensive threat on a nightly basis, defend bigs, defend smalls, fill holes, get in passing lanes, and block shots on the defensive end on top of displaying amazing defense on the inside, outside, and in transition. on the offensive end he still had the energy to score 18 points with zero plays run for him, without the ball he was one of the best players in the league and knew where to be at the right time better than almost anyone in the league, had a true shooting % of 59, and averaged 10 rebounds per contest.
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Carter was clearly the Nets best player during the regular season, though Kidd was easily better during the playoffs.
it was closer in the regular season, but kidd is still clearly better, on top of them being worlds apart in the playoffs.
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He was definitely better than Parker, and similar to Davis. Arenas was bordering on superstar level at that time and simply a more dangerous player than Kidd was at 34 years old.
i will admit that it was very close between the three point guards of davis, parker, and arenas. but that is the order of those three players, as tight as it is between them. as for kidd? well the only thing arenas was more dangerous than kidd in was the possibility of getting more turnovers than assists, and/or shooting 7-22 from the field.
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Even so, Detroit was a much better team. They had Ben Wallace in addition to a well-rounded starting 5 and an excellent bench.
that much better team only managed 8 more wins
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Fair enough, T-Mac's series certainly wasn't all good, but it wasn't just bad either. He had the unbelievable start to the series and then the disappointing finish after Detroit switched Tayshaun Prince onto him. T-Mac averaged 36/6/5, 2.3 spg, 1.3 bpg on 52 FG% and 40 3P% and 3 made threes to get Orlando up 3-1.
i agree, it was what would be expected of tracy mcgrady after the regular season that he had.
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I seriously doubt it.
ok
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'07 Kobe did what Iverson did the thing best better than Iverson did, and he was also a better playmaker. There's no real argument for Iverson here.
how many playoff games did bryant win again?
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Lebron didn't have better numbers, he had small advantages in assists(+0.6) and rebounds(+1) which isn't enough to make up for Kobe's big scoring advantage(+4.3)
of course it isn't, but lebron had better numbers. on top of his more rebounds, and assists, he also had more steals, blocks, and less turnovers.
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As far as their systems? It's questionable whether Lebron could succeed in the triangle. He hasn't shown much of an ability to play without the ball. Only this year did he seem to improve a bit.
no questions need to be asked, all that needs to be evaluated is what he did in his system.
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The Lakers across the board were a much better offensive team than the Cavs. The Lakers were 5th in ppg, 6th in FG% and 7th in offensive rating while the Cavs were 18th in offensive rating, 19th in ppg and 24th in FG%.
more proof that the cavs had a trash offense.
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When did I say that? I've always said that Lebron's rebounding was the most overrated part of his game until this year. I noticed his rebounding a lot more, and not surprisingly, he averaged a phenomenal 9.7 rpg during the playoffs and 2.3 offensive boards.
you said he has impressed you only the last few years.
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It seems that you're describing Lebron the last few years, particularly in Miami.

And since you like small sample sizes(Odom without Kobe), how about the 4 games Cleveland played without Lebron when several players put up better numbers than usual, the team went 3-1 with a massive point differential, the Cavs had 5 players in double figures in all 4 games including 8 in their 124-97 win vs the Warriors?
i am describing lebron in the 2007 season.

all 4 games were against sub .500 teams.
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It's an achievement, just one that doesn't impress me compared to other things I've seen from elite players, including Lebron himself.
it was an achievement that catapulted him into second best in the league.
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Correct about Bynum, but as far as depth, they had pretty much the same roster, except improved versions of Gasol and Ariza for the whole season. The role players shooting so much better had a lot to do with Kobe doing the best job of his career as a playmaker.
kobe's play in the 2009 playoffs is the sealer here.
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Ok, so you admit his '08 regular season was better, so that requires no further discussion.

Regarding the playoffs, I'll concede that his '09 run has a case for his best playoff run because of consistency through all 4 rounds, but his play through 3 rounds was clearly more impressive in 2008.

And there was a massive difference between the '08 and '09 finals. Not just Kobe's performance, but his opponent as well as the help he got.
i'm not going to go into individual rounds. that is like saying for the first 60 games of the regular season he was good, but for the last 20 he wasn't.

his playoff run as a whole was alot more impressive and you are clearly underrating the orlando magic who won 59 games, beat the defending champion boston celtics, beat the best player in the world in lebron james playing out of his skin to the tune of 39/8/8 and the 66-16 cleveland cavaliers. the magic boasted the best center and top 2 overall dwight howard, rashard lewis playing the best ball of his career who was a top 4 power forward, and a top 4 small forward in hedo turkoglu.
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Nice job changing the subject.
no, i answered your question.
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So if you consider Kareem to have been clearly better than Walton who won a title then how was Kareem not at a championship level?
because he didn't play at a level in which is team needed to win a championship
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:52 AM   #275
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
marion was the suns best player in the regular season. he would take the opposing teams best offensive threat on a nightly basis, defend bigs, defend smalls, fill holes, get in passing lanes, and block shots on the defensive end on top of displaying amazing defense on the inside, outside, and in transition. on the offensive end he still had the energy to score 18 points with zero plays run for him, without the ball he was one of the best players in the league and knew where to be at the right time better than almost anyone in the league, had a true shooting % of 59, and averaged 10 rebounds per contest.

The Suns did actually run a play or 2 for Marion, often to get him a lob pass, but that's besides the point. I appreciate what he did without needing the ball, as a defensive player especially with the versatility you pointed out as well as his help defense and rebounding in addition to his ability as a finisher and shooter.

But Nash was the key to that team, it's quite obvious. He was the guy putting everyone in position to score both in their half court offense and transition. This team may not even make the playoffs without him, that's how much they relied on him. Marion is a great guy to have, but I'm sure the Suns would still find a way to stay at the top of the West as long as they had Nash. If you look at one guy to credit the most for Phoenix having such an amazing offense, it's obviously Nash.

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i will admit that it was very close between the three point guards of davis, parker, and arenas. but that is the order of those three players, as tight as it is between them. as for kidd? well the only thing arenas was more dangerous than kidd in was the possibility of getting more turnovers than assists, and/or shooting 7-22 from the field.

Well, I'm not convinced Parker is in that class myself, but I won't dismiss the possibility. Parker was able to be a key contributor on a championship team, something that I'm not as sure of Davis and Arenas being able to do. And Parker was on a team that didn't look to run in a system where they looked inside to Duncan first, so he did sacrifice his game individually and made it work, something I'm not sure Davis or Arenas would be willing to do.

As for your comments about Arenas vs Kidd? Your criticizing his shooting % yet he shot better than Kidd(42% vs 40%) while making more 3s and getting to the line a lot more. If this was prime Kidd, I'd say get Gilbert's chucking ass out of here, I wouldn't insult prime Kidd like that. But this is 2007, and Kidd certainly wasn't the threat to penetrate that he once was, while Gilbert could take his man off the dribble at will. He had gotten to the level where many at the time were putting him among the league's superstars.

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that much better team only managed 8 more wins

And you don't think that's a significant difference? We're talking about a team that was barely over .500 vs a 50 win team. 50 wins is often where people start talking about teams approaching contender status. Hell, the '04 and '05 Pistons only won 54 games and they won a championship and made it to game 7 of the finals, respectively.

Just compare the rosters. Detroit had legitimate quality starters at every position with the exception of Michael Curry in addition to a great bench that included the '02 sixth man of the year. They had an excellent 9 man rotation, a rarity, especially when it includes all-star talents, most notably Ben Wallace who had a major impact on games.

T-Mac's 2 best players were Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie seasons. Gooden had good athletic ability and a nice skill set for his position which made him a fine scorer and rebounder, but even at his best, he was never a great NBA player because he was never much of a passer or defender, and he was also a dumb player. His rookie year was no exception. Giricek was never more than a decent SG/SF, and after those 2, it gets much, much worse.

And Orlando didn't even make up for this lack of offensive support around McGrady with a good defensive team that rebounded and worked hard. They were a terrible defensive team. The fact that T-Mac made them a solid offensive team is a great to how great of a player he was at this time.

He was as complete of a shooting guard as I've seen outside Jordan, and maybe Kobe. He was arguably the best scorer in the league this season rivaled by only Shaq and Kobe, one of the best rebounders at his position(nearly matched the rebounding average you found impressive for '07 Lebron which he accomplished as a forward, while '03 T-Mac was playing mostly guard) and probably the best passer and playmaker that wasn't as a point guard at this time.

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how many playoff games did bryant win again?

1, which is how much you'd expect facing a 61 win Suns team that featured Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion in their primes in addition to 6th man of the year Leandro Barbosa and fine group of role players in Raja Bell, Boris Diaw and Kurt Thomas. How many games did you expect Kobe to win surrounded by Lamar Odom(with a bad shoulder), Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Jordan Farmar and Shammond Williams.

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of course it isn't, but lebron had better numbers. on top of his more rebounds, and assists, he also had more steals, blocks, and less turnovers.

The difference in those categories were even smaller. Just 0.1 fewer turnovers, 0.2 more steals and 0.2 more blocks.

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no questions need to be asked, all that needs to be evaluated is what he did in his system.

It is important to me because I've yet to see a player in a role as ball-dominant as Lebron's even in Cleveland win a championship.

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more proof that the cavs had a trash offense.

Nah, more proof Kobe was a much better offensive player at this time, especially considering the massive disparity in their teams offenses, no matter what category you consider is the best for judging this. We can be realistic and acknowledge that neither player had particularly good offensive support, yet Kobe's Lakers were much, much better offensively.

I will acknowledge that some of this difference can be attributed to Phil Jackson being a great offensive coach, while the dumb expression Mike Brown always has on his face pretty much sums up his knowledge offensively.

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you said he has impressed you only the last few years.


As a rebounder? Pretty much. I mean, he was always above average just based on how many of them he got, but it's only been very recently that I've started to notice his rebounding the way you'd think with the numbers he puts up.

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all 4 games were against sub .500 teams.

The competition wasn't that much different than what Lamar Odom faced without Kobe.

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it was an achievement that catapulted him into second best in the league.

Nah, but I'll reluctantly give him 3rd.

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kobe's play in the 2009 playoffs is the sealer here.

Nope, this difference is purely circumstantial, it's a difference that was a result of a superior supporting cast and an inferior finals opponent.

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i'm not going to go into individual rounds. that is like saying for the first 60 games of the regular season he was good, but for the last 20 he wasn't.

Consistency is part of how I judge a playoff run.

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his playoff run as a whole was alot more impressive and you are clearly underrating the orlando magic who won 59 games, beat the defending champion boston celtics, beat the best player in the world in lebron james playing out of his skin to the tune of 39/8/8 and the 66-16 cleveland cavaliers. the magic boasted the best center and top 2 overall dwight howard, rashard lewis playing the best ball of his career who was a top 4 power forward, and a top 4 small forward in hedo turkoglu.

Orlando was a fine team, though Dwight was not top 2, more like top 4-5 and I wouldn't rate Lewis or Turkoglu as high as you did either. But the point is, Orlando was certainly not on par with the '08 Celtics, they barely beat the Celtics without KG in '09 and then lost to the 2010 Celtics the next year.

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because he didn't play at a level in which is team needed to win a championship

That level would probably require the highest level a player has reached given the lack of support he had. I'm not sure 1994 Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, '67 Wilt, peak Jordan, '87 Magic, '86 Bird ect. would have won either. In fact, I doubt it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:46 PM   #276
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

It seems like Barkley's entire argument over Malone is superior box-score numbers and how dependent Malone was on Stockton.

The latter is false considering how some of Malone's greatest games were when Stockton was struggling or not even playing.

The former does not necessarily mean he was better. A lot of players can put up great box-score numbers and don't necessarily help their team win. We can look at Adrian Dantley for example. He put up great amount of ppg under amazing efficiency his entire career but most people know that he didn't help his team win much because of how he stopped the ball-movement and how long he took the score. Barkley could be argued the same.

It seems like it is becoming more and more revisionist that people are saying Barkley was better. Barkley put up better numbers, but he wasn't the better player.
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:59 PM   #277
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by WillyJakk
Charles is right, he was better than Malone.

Actually for a short period of time Jordan was the only player superior to Barkley.
The same could be said for Malone in 97 and 98.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:52 PM   #278
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Yea barkley definitely slowed the game down his main move which he was great at was gettin the ball in the post back up to within a few feet then shoot but when the dbl came he usually would kick it out, would of been unstoppable in a game of one on one but doesnt equate to good team ball movement, they were both great but both had their limitations amd cldnt score at will quite like mj
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:55 PM   #279
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
It seems like Barkley's entire argument over Malone is superior box-score numbers and how dependent Malone was on Stockton.

The latter is false considering how some of Malone's greatest games were when Stockton was struggling or not even playing.

The former does not necessarily mean he was better. A lot of players can put up great box-score numbers and don't necessarily help their team win. We can look at Adrian Dantley for example. He put up great amount of ppg under amazing efficiency his entire career but most people know that he didn't help his team win much because of how he stopped the ball-movement and how long he took the score. Barkley could be argued the same.

It seems like it is becoming more and more revisionist that people are saying Barkley was better. Barkley put up better numbers, but he wasn't the better player.

Actually, Barkley did not have better numbers, Malone had an unreal statline of 31/11/3 on 56 FG% in '90, the one blemish being 3.7 TO, yet Barkley was clearly the better player at that time 25/12/4, 60 FG%. Actually, even though the rounded numbers make the difference seem bigger, Barkley's rebounding advantage statistically was negligible at 11.5 rpg vs Malone's 11.1 rpg.

It's not revisionist history at all to call Barkley better, I think it's apparent that he was the more dominant player, certainly during Barkley's own prime from about '88 or '89 to '93, there was no question who was better at that time. Granted, we have to remember that many believe Malone's best ball came later, and I'm one of those who thinks he was at his best from '94-'98, hell, Malone really didn't look to have declined by 2000 at 36, but that was a time when Barkley was slowing done like a player normally does at that age. So we can't necessarily just go by who was considered better during Barkley's own prime since Malone's prime was arguably during a different time, so it could be like saying, well, Malone was considered better in the mid 90's when Barkley was still elite, so he's better.

But it's clear that Malone wasn't viewed the same Barkley was when both were at their best. Barkley was a player with solid, but normal longevity for a star, while Malone had superhuman longevity, that's ultimately what has caused such a big debate.

Now, everyone has their own criteria, and that's fine, but personally, I'm going to look at which player was their best during their primes, and make a decision based on that, unless it was close enough to need a tiebreaker(which I don't think it is.) This is because looking at players prime vs prime is the most representative of who you'll see as the better player purely going after what you watched. Longevity is much harder to account for, looking at their primes, you can watch one period and easily determine who was more effective.

Looking at say '89-'93 Barkley(prime arguably started '88, but I want an even stretch to compare to Malone's) vs '94-'98 Malone, and I can say that this version of Barkley was a better scorer than Malone ever was, a better rebounder and a better passer(though Malone became an excellent passer.) Barkley's versatility was another bonus, not many players have been bigger threats to get their own rebounds and go coast to coast. And above anything else, Barkley just took control of games more and dominated. He was probably one of the 3 most doubled players of the last 20 or so years along with Hakeem and Shaq.

Malone did become a fantastic individual defender, and defense is a clear advantage over Chuck. It's very important at this position, but not enough to make up for the other advantages to me.

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Originally Posted by WockaVodka
The same could be said for Malone in 97 and 98.

'97? Probably. '98? Nah, Shaq really seemed to be entering his prime and was the more dominant force by this point, imo. Plus, the version of Jordan Chuck was competing with for best player was prime Jordan. Chuck and Jordan saw their primes pretty much overlap exactly from '89-'93. You could argue Chuck's prime started a year earlier, and Jordan's really started in '90 when he adjusted his game when Phil came over, but the same period. Jordan was still great in '97 and '98, but he had clearly lost a bit compared to the early 90's. It showed more in Jordan's ability to give 100% at both ends like the early 90's, and also be a bigger playmaker, compared to the 2nd 3peat where MJ conserved energy by focusing on offense more, though he was still a good defender, Pippen picked up the slack and became the Bulls best and most important defender during the second 3peat, while that was Jordan during the first 3peat.

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Old 09-19-2012, 05:50 AM   #280
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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The Suns did actually run a play or 2 for Marion, often to get him a lob pass, but that's besides the point. I appreciate what he did without needing the ball, as a defensive player especially with the versatility you pointed out as well as his help defense and rebounding in addition to his ability as a finisher and shooter.

But Nash was the key to that team, it's quite obvious. He was the guy putting everyone in position to score both in their half court offense and transition. This team may not even make the playoffs without him, that's how much they relied on him. Marion is a great guy to have, but I'm sure the Suns would still find a way to stay at the top of the West as long as they had Nash. If you look at one guy to credit the most for Phoenix having such an amazing offense, it's obviously Nash.
no point discussing what would happen if neither nash or marion were absent from the line up. i deal with what actually happened, and what was apparent was that during the regular season shawn marion was the better player.
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As for your comments about Arenas vs Kidd? Your criticizing his shooting % yet he shot better than Kidd(42% vs 40%) while making more 3s and getting to the line a lot more. If this was prime Kidd, I'd say get Gilbert's chucking ass out of here, I wouldn't insult prime Kidd like that. But this is 2007, and Kidd certainly wasn't the threat to penetrate that he once was, while Gilbert could take his man off the dribble at will. He had gotten to the level where many at the time were putting him among the league's superstars.
who cares if he shot 2 percentage points more? to have a scoring point guard means will shoot you in the foot more times than not, especially when the same scoring point guard does not know when to stop shooting the ball, as you will see with arenas' habit of going 9-25, 8-26, 6-20, 6-23, 5-19, 1-12, 2-12..just pathetic percentages you do not want to see from your point guard, and thats in just the first month .
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And you don't think that's a significant difference? We're talking about a team that was barely over .500 vs a 50 win team. 50 wins is often where people start talking about teams approaching contender status. Hell, the '04 and '05 Pistons only won 54 games and they won a championship and made it to game 7 of the finals, respectively.
yeh and the 1981 houston rockets went 40-42 and made the nba finals, so that means the '03 magic could have made the finals right?
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Just compare the rosters. Detroit had legitimate quality starters at every position with the exception of Michael Curry in addition to a great bench that included the '02 sixth man of the year. They had an excellent 9 man rotation, a rarity, especially when it includes all-star talents, most notably Ben Wallace who had a major impact on games.
that excellent 9 man rotation only managed to win them 8 more games than the orlando magic
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T-Mac's 2 best players were Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie seasons. Gooden had good athletic ability and a nice skill set for his position which made him a fine scorer and rebounder, but even at his best, he was never a great NBA player because he was never much of a passer or defender, and he was also a dumb player. His rookie year was no exception. Giricek was never more than a decent SG/SF, and after those 2, it gets much, much worse.
gooden was good enough to outplay tmac in the final game of the playoffs and step up alot more than him in that series overall. the magic also had darrell armstrong the 1999 6th man of the year and most improved player, who was a great overall defender, great free throw shooter, and a good driving ability.
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And Orlando didn't even make up for this lack of offensive support around McGrady with a good defensive team that rebounded and worked hard. They were a terrible defensive team. The fact that T-Mac made them a solid offensive team is a great to how great of a player he was at this time.
ofcourse he was a great player, top 8 infact
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He was as complete of a shooting guard as I've seen outside Jordan, and maybe Kobe. He was arguably the best scorer in the league this season rivaled by only Shaq and Kobe, one of the best rebounders at his position(nearly matched the rebounding average you found impressive for '07 Lebron which he accomplished as a forward, while '03 T-Mac was playing mostly guard) and probably the best passer and playmaker that wasn't as a point guard at this time.
definately. i respect what mcgrady was able to do out on the basketball court in 2003. but in 2005 he contributed to a winning cause, and played alot better in the playoffs.
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1, which is how much you'd expect facing a 61 win Suns team that featured Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion in their primes in addition to 6th man of the year Leandro Barbosa and fine group of role players in Raja Bell, Boris Diaw and Kurt Thomas. How many games did you expect Kobe to win surrounded by Lamar Odom(with a bad shoulder), Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Jordan Farmar and Shammond Williams.
lamar odom with a bad shoulder somehow managed to step up alot more than bryant, and almost outplay him. i expected alot more from bryant individually, considering what position his team was in, and playing against a top 3 paced team in the league.
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The difference in those categories were even smaller. Just 0.1 fewer turnovers, 0.2 more steals and 0.2 more blocks.
so you are admitting there was a difference, and that the only advantage bryant had was ppg while lebron had rpg, apg, spg, bpg, and topg?
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It is important to me because I've yet to see a player in a role as ball-dominant as Lebron's even in Cleveland win a championship.
lol trash statement. its important to me because i've never seen such trash make it to the nba finals.
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Nah, more proof Kobe was a much better offensive player at this time, especially considering the massive disparity in their teams offenses, no matter what category you consider is the best for judging this. We can be realistic and acknowledge that neither player had particularly good offensive support, yet Kobe's Lakers were much, much better offensively.
only due to the offensive system
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As a rebounder? Pretty much. I mean, he was always above average just based on how many of them he got, but it's only been very recently that I've started to notice his rebounding the way you'd think with the numbers he puts up.
yeh well he was putting up the same numbers in '07 as he was "a few" years ago, as i pointed out
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The competition wasn't that much different than what Lamar Odom faced without Kobe.
maybe true, but i only bring up that argument when you do so it doesn't matter. too many other factors can be attributed to these missed games.
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Nah, but I'll reluctantly give him 3rd.
lol nobody else is close. duncan, james, daylight, mcgrady, kidd, nowitzki.
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Nope, this difference is purely circumstantial, it's a difference that was a result of a superior supporting cast and an inferior finals opponent.
trash statement once again. bill russell doesn't deserve to be top 100 due to superior supporting cast.
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Consistency is part of how I judge a playoff run.
'09 bryant was consistently better than '08 bryant.
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Orlando was a fine team, though Dwight was not top 2, more like top 4-5 and I wouldn't rate Lewis or Turkoglu as high as you did either. But the point is, Orlando was certainly not on par with the '08 Celtics, they barely beat the Celtics without KG in '09 and then lost to the 2010 Celtics the next year.
howard was better in '09, lewis was barely recognisable compared to his '09 version, vince carter was nowhere near as good as turkoglu, and rafer alston was gone.
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That level would probably require the highest level a player has reached given the lack of support he had. I'm not sure 1994 Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, '67 Wilt, peak Jordan, '87 Magic, '86 Bird ect. would have won either. In fact, I doubt it.
more what ifs
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:09 PM   #281
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
no point discussing what would happen if neither nash or marion were absent from the line up. i deal with what actually happened, and what was apparent was that during the regular season shawn marion was the better player.

What actually happened was Nash playing at a level far beyond what Marion did even in Marion's best season('06), much less '07.

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who cares if he shot 2 percentage points more? to have a scoring point guard means will shoot you in the foot more times than not, especially when the same scoring point guard does not know when to stop shooting the ball, as you will see with arenas' habit of going 9-25, 8-26, 6-20, 6-23, 5-19, 1-12, 2-12..just pathetic percentages you do not want to see from your point guard, and thats in just the first month .

I'm not a big fan of Arenas either, but he did have a very good season and led Washington to a better record when he was in the lineup than Kidd did. They both finished 41-41.

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yeh and the 1981 houston rockets went 40-42 and made the nba finals, so that means the '03 magic could have made the finals right?


Houston had far better players around Moses than Orlando did around T-Mac. I'd take Calvin Murphy, Robert Reid, Rudy T, Mike Dunleavy, Allen Leavell and Billy Paultz over Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie years no less, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, Pat Garrity, Andrew DeClercq and Shawn Kemp doing his best Oliver Miller impression.

Wow, when I say that Magic cast out loud it sounds even worse than I initially remembered, and that's saying something.

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that excellent 9 man rotation only managed to win them 8 more games than the orlando magic

Thanks to an unbelievable season by T-Mac. He put them on his back and carried that type of garbage about as far as you can. And 8 wins is significant.

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gooden was good enough to outplay tmac in the final game of the playoffs and step up alot more than him in that series overall. the magic also had darrell armstrong the 1999 6th man of the year and most improved player, who was a great overall defender, great free throw shooter, and a good driving ability.

Wow, Gooden could be better for 1 game? Give that man a 100 million dollar deal. Lets put it this way, if your second best player is Drew Gooden, much less as a rookie, you're in trouble.

Darrell Armstrong was 4 years removed from that 6th man award. He was quite old by NBA standards at 34, a pretty good role player, nothing more, and he was among Orlando's best players.

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ofcourse he was a great player, top 8 infact

No worse than top 4. The only players who were better were Duncan, Garnett and Shaq, and T-Mac had a case for being top 2.

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definately. i respect what mcgrady was able to do out on the basketball court in 2003. but in 2005 he contributed to a winning cause, and played alot better in the playoffs.

He had a much better team in '05. Doesn't mean he was better. Aside from Yao who was much better than any of his Orlando teammates, he still had a cast of role players that is easily on par with that Orlando team such as Mutombo, Bob Sura, David Wesley, Juwan Howard, Jon Barry and Mike James.

In fact, even that case of role players is better, much less Yao. Then consider he went from having one of the 10 worst defenses in '03 to the 4th best in '05 which alone could account for the difference in wins.

Not only that, his '05 Rocket team was 7th in 3P% at 36.1% while his '03 Magic were 9th at 35.7% this is despite T-Mac shooting 3s much better in '03 at 38.6% with 2.3 3PM vs 32.6% with 1.8 3PM in '05.

His '05 Rocket team also outrebounded opponents by 1.7 rpg while his '03 Magic team got outrebounded by 2.6 rpg.

So forget casts on paper, just look at the results. The vastly superior defense, the superior rebounding and superior shooters around him more than makes up for the 9 win difference, and ultimately he lost in the first round in 7 games in both seasons.

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lamar odom with a bad shoulder somehow managed to step up alot more than bryant, and almost outplay him. i expected alot more from bryant individually, considering what position his team was in, and playing against a top 3 paced team in the league.

Odom didn't do anything particularly special, he was fine, but Kobe was clearly better.

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so you are admitting there was a difference, and that the only advantage bryant had was ppg while lebron had rpg, apg, spg, bpg, and topg?

All of those differences are very minor as I stated while Kobe held a big scoring advantage, plus, stats come easier in a ball-dominant role like Lebron's, although I will say in fairness that Kobe was not as good in that type of role as Lebron, but Lebron clearly wasn't nearly as good of a player for a system like the triangle as Kobe.

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lol trash statement. its important to me because i've never seen such trash make it to the nba finals.

They faced trash except for Detroit, and Lebron had an elite defensive team and rebounding team around him in addition to the role player stepping up huge in key games, it's not that remarkable other than game 5 if you watched how it happened.

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only due to the offensive system

Lebron with that hideous jump shot and an inability to play without the ball couldn't have been nearly as successful in that system. He would have been a bad fit much like Gary Payton and Glen Rice, though he would have gotten by more than them on talent alone.

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yeh well he was putting up the same numbers in '07 as he was "a few" years ago, as i pointed out

I didn't think Lebron was as impressive of a rebounder as the numbers suggest most of his career anyway. He's obviously above average for his position, but it was really during these past playoffs that he really impressed me in that area.

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maybe true, but i only bring up that argument when you do so it doesn't matter. too many other factors can be attributed to these missed games.

Agreed, so then how about not jumping to conclusions such as Odom being better without Kobe based on numbers in 4 games?

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lol nobody else is close. duncan, james, daylight, mcgrady, kidd, nowitzki.

at Kidd and T-Mac above Kobe, Dirk and Nash as well as Lebron being above Kobe.

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trash statement once again. bill russell doesn't deserve to be top 100 due to superior supporting cast.


Trash analogy.

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'09 bryant was consistently better than '08 bryant.

Consistently worse.

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howard was better in '09, lewis was barely recognisable compared to his '09 version, vince carter was nowhere near as good as turkoglu, and rafer alston was gone.

Regardless of the teams on paper, Orlando ended up winning 59 games, just like '09, and had the best point differential in the league, better than their '09 point differential.

And Boston wasn't the same team as they were in '08. KG went from one of the top 4 players in the game to a nice player, but top 15-20 range, Pierce fell off slightly, their defense wasn't as historically dominant, they didn't have James Posey, though Rondo did really improve becoming one of the top 15-20 players as opposed to just a solid point guard in '08, while Perkins also improved and Allen seemed more comfortable in '10 than '08.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:30 PM   #282
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

ShaqAttack laying the smackdown. I'm loving this.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:25 AM   #283
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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What actually happened was Nash playing at a level far beyond what Marion did even in Marion's best season('06), much less '07.
only in the playoffs did nash outplay marion. marion was the suns best player in the regular season.
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I'm not a big fan of Arenas either, but he did have a very good season and led Washington to a better record when he was in the lineup than Kidd did. They both finished 41-41.
he had a good season, as did kidd, but what separated the two was what happened in the playoffs.
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Houston had far better players around Moses than Orlando did around T-Mac. I'd take Calvin Murphy, Robert Reid, Rudy T, Mike Dunleavy, Allen Leavell and Billy Paultz over Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie years no less, 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, Pat Garrity, Andrew DeClercq and Shawn Kemp doing his best Oliver Miller impression.

Wow, when I say that Magic cast out loud it sounds even worse than I initially remembered, and that's saying something.
and they still finished below .500 and made the finals.
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Thanks to an unbelievable season by T-Mac. He put them on his back and carried that type of garbage about as far as you can. And 8 wins is significant.
you should expect a pretty close series in an 8 win difference, 1v8 is almost always separated by more than that. i respect what mcgrady achieved that season and ranked him accordingly, 8th. i will admit that alot of players had great seasons that year, and if tmac had done what he did in '03 in another year he might have been ranked higher.
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Wow, Gooden could be better for 1 game? Give that man a 100 million dollar deal. Lets put it this way, if your second best player is Drew Gooden, much less as a rookie, you're in trouble
that 1 game was the most important game of the playoffs and you are dismissing it as nothing
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Darrell Armstrong was 4 years removed from that 6th man award. He was quite old by NBA standards at 34, a pretty good role player, nothing more, and he was among Orlando's best players.
good locker room guy who was key to their success. in orlando's 3 postseason victories he averaged 16 points, 3 rebounds, and 6 assists.
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No worse than top 4. The only players who were better were Duncan, Garnett and Shaq, and T-Mac had a case for being top 2.
you aren't top 2 on a .500 team, lets not get anymore ridiculous than you already are. so lets put that filth to bed. top 8 is worse than top 4, so yes he was worse than top 4. the better players than tmac were duncan, garnett, o'neal, kidd, bryant, nowitzki, and wallace.
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He had a much better team in '05. Doesn't mean he was better. Aside from Yao who was much better than any of his Orlando teammates, he still had a cast of role players that is easily on par with that Orlando team such as Mutombo, Bob Sura, David Wesley, Juwan Howard, Jon Barry and Mike James.

In fact, even that case of role players is better, much less Yao. Then consider he went from having one of the 10 worst defenses in '03 to the 4th best in '05 which alone could account for the difference in wins.

Not only that, his '05 Rocket team was 7th in 3P% at 36.1% while his '03 Magic were 9th at 35.7% this is despite T-Mac shooting 3s much better in '03 at 38.6% with 2.3 3PM vs 32.6% with 1.8 3PM in '05.

His '05 Rocket team also outrebounded opponents by 1.7 rpg while his '03 Magic team got outrebounded by 2.6 rpg.

So forget casts on paper, just look at the results. The vastly superior defense, the superior rebounding and superior shooters around him more than makes up for the 9 win difference, and ultimately he lost in the first round in 7 games in both seasons.
forget results on paper. tmac performed much better in the first round, dispite losing in the first round.

all that has to be looked at is the western conference that year:
phoenix: 62 wins
san antonio: 59 wins
dallas: 58 wins
seattle: 52 wins
houston: 51 wins
sacramento: 50 wins
denver: 49 wins
memphis: 45 wins
minnesota: 44 wins

6 teams with over 50 wins, 3 teams with 58 or more wins.

in orlando, 2 years earlier, the eastern conference's best team detroit won 50 games.
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Odom didn't do anything particularly special, he was fine, but Kobe was clearly better.
kobe was better, but only slightly. meanwhile odom clearly stepped up alot more. odom went from 15.9ppg, 9.8rpg, 4.8apg, 0.9spg, 0.6bpg, 2.9topg on 47%fg to 19.4ppg, 13.0rpg, 2.2apg, 0.4spg, 1.2bpg, 2.0topg on 48%fg.
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All of those differences are very minor as I stated while Kobe held a big scoring advantage, plus, stats come easier in a ball-dominant role like Lebron's, although I will say in fairness that Kobe was not as good in that type of role as Lebron, but Lebron clearly wasn't nearly as good of a player for a system like the triangle as Kobe.
lebron had to be ball dominant for that team to succeed, i've already destroyed this trash. and kobe's advantage in ppg is made up by lebron's advantage in everything else.
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They faced trash except for Detroit, and Lebron had an elite defensive team and rebounding team around him in addition to the role player stepping up huge in key games, it's not that remarkable other than game 5 if you watched how it happened.
lol a team that just comfortably defeated 47 win toronto featuring the best point guard in the league, 2 guard vince carter just coming off a 25/6/4 series, and exciting slasher small forward richard jefferson coming off a 22/5/3 series is not trash.
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Lebron with that hideous jump shot and an inability to play without the ball couldn't have been nearly as successful in that system. He would have been a bad fit much like Gary Payton and Glen Rice, though he would have gotten by more than them on talent alone.
kobe with lebron's cast wouldn't have made the playoffs
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I didn't think Lebron was as impressive of a rebounder as the numbers suggest most of his career anyway. He's obviously above average for his position, but it was really during these past playoffs that he really impressed me in that area.
lol how many rebounds does a small forward have to get to impress you?
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Agreed, so then how about not jumping to conclusions such as Odom being better without Kobe based on numbers in 4 games?
only if you agree to never bring up how a player or a team performed while a player was out again.
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at Kidd and T-Mac above Kobe, Dirk and Nash as well as Lebron being above Kobe.

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Trash analogy.

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Consistently worse
consistently better
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Regardless of the teams on paper, Orlando ended up winning 59 games, just like '09, and had the best point differential in the league, better than their '09 point differential.

And Boston wasn't the same team as they were in '08. KG went from one of the top 4 players in the game to a nice player, but top 15-20 range, Pierce fell off slightly, their defense wasn't as historically dominant, they didn't have James Posey, though Rondo did really improve becoming one of the top 15-20 players as opposed to just a solid point guard in '08, while Perkins also improved and Allen seemed more comfortable in '10 than '08.
nobody expected the magic to beat the celtics, who won 62 games. the celtics were no longer just the big 3, with rajon rondo stepping up to be one of the best 7 players in the world. kendrick perkins also stepped up huge in the playoffs and played like one of the league's best centers.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:12 AM   #284
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
only in the playoffs did nash outplay marion. marion was the suns best player in the regular season.

Nash had the best regular season of his career and the best a point guard has had in the 2 plus decades since Magic's first retirement with the exception of maybe Chris Paul in '08 and '09.

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he had a good season, as did kidd, but what separated the two was what happened in the playoffs.

Arenas didn't play in the playoffs due to an injury. If you want to drop him because of that then that's fine.

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and they still finished below .500 and made the finals.

They faced another 40-42 team in the WCF and regardless of Houston's record, they had an elite player themselves like Orlando did, but unlike Orlando, they had some solid talent around him, remember Calvin Murphy dropped like 45 to eliminate the Spurs?

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you should expect a pretty close series in an 8 win difference, 1v8 is almost always separated by more than that. i respect what mcgrady achieved that season and ranked him accordingly, 8th. i will admit that alot of players had great seasons that year, and if tmac had done what he did in '03 in another year he might have been ranked higher.

8th is just laughable considering the type of season T-Mac had that year, but you are right about a lot of players having great seasons. Duncan, Garnett, Shaq and Kobe especially, while Kidd had his best year and Dirk took his game to another level.

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that 1 game was the most important game of the playoffs and you are dismissing it as nothing


It was important obviously, but it doesn't change who Gooden was as a player. Gooden was talented, but not a great player. I won't say he didn't belong on an NBA roster, but this is a rookie version of the same player who was part of the '07 Cavs team you called "trash" except Gooden was arguably the second best player on this team, while he was no more than 4th best on the '07 Cavs and that Cavs team was also the polar opposite of Orlando in defense and rebounding, they were elite in both categories while Orlando sucked in both categories.

So what do you think a cast that can't defend or rebound and has a rookie Drew Gooden as the 2nd best player is? Trash.

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good locker room guy who was key to their success. in orlando's 3 postseason victories he averaged 16 points, 3 rebounds, and 6 assists.

Decent role player. but you don't want him to be one of your top 4 players unless your top 2 players are Shaq and Kobe. Or your top 3 are Lebron/Wade/Bosh and even then, they had a better 4th guy then '03 Armstrong.

He was really one of only 4 decent players Orlando had on their postseason roster along with T-Mac and Gooden and Giricek in their rookie years. That isn't going to get it done vs a Detroit team that dominates defensively and has far more quality players than that in Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Cliff Robinson, Chauncey Billups, Corliss Williamson, Mehmet Okur, Chucky Atkins and Jon Barry.

Detroit had 3 bench players who would probably start on Orlando and 4 starters who certainly would.

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you aren't top 2 on a .500 team, lets not get anymore ridiculous than you already are. so lets put that filth to bed. top 8 is worse than top 4, so yes he was worse than top 4. the better players than tmac were duncan, garnett, o'neal, kidd, bryant, nowitzki, and wallace.

Some players have been top 2 and plenty have at least been close to it on .500 teams.

Can't argue with Duncan, Garnett or Shaq, but I will destroy your other selections.

Kobe and T-Mac were very close, if you caught them on any random night, either could look better, but T-Mac wins due to a much more consistent season, better numbers even with nobody to take the pressure off of him and better team success considering the team he had.

Dirk wasn't the all around player T-Mac was. T-Mac did the thing that Dirk did best(scoring) better than Dirk did while also being probably the best passer and playmaker at his position. His defense was certainly no worse than Dirk's and the only advantage Dirk had was rebounding. And a power forward grabbing 3 more rebounds than a shooting guard isn't enough to make up for everything else.

Kidd is more difficult because it depends on your preference. He brought intangibles that T-Mac didn't and was a better passer and defender while also improving his shooting and scoring. But considering T-Mac was the best perimeter scorer in the league and the best playmaker at his own position, he was the more dominant player than Kidd, especially since he was much more efficient.

Ben Wallace? I like Wallace as much of the next guy, he made my top 15 for this year, iirc, but a guy whose exclusively a defender and rebounder isn't going to impact a game more than the game's best offensive player on the perimeter.

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forget results on paper. tmac performed much better in the first round, dispite losing in the first round.

This is a fact, still not enough, though.

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all that has to be looked at is the western conference that year:
phoenix: 62 wins
san antonio: 59 wins
dallas: 58 wins
seattle: 52 wins
houston: 51 wins
sacramento: 50 wins
denver: 49 wins
memphis: 45 wins
minnesota: 44 wins

6 teams with over 50 wins, 3 teams with 58 or more wins.

in orlando, 2 years earlier, the eastern conference's best team detroit won 50 games.

True, the conference was a lot better, but this difference in the support he had was immense.

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kobe was better, but only slightly. meanwhile odom clearly stepped up alot more. odom went from 15.9ppg, 9.8rpg, 4.8apg, 0.9spg, 0.6bpg, 2.9topg on 47%fg to 19.4ppg, 13.0rpg, 2.2apg, 0.4spg, 1.2bpg, 2.0topg on 48%fg.

at Kobe being slightly better, and again with this "stepped up more" nonsense.

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lebron had to be ball dominant for that team to succeed, i've already destroyed this trash. and kobe's advantage in ppg is made up by lebron's advantage in everything else.

Lebron had to be ball-dominant because he couldn't play off the ball, though a clueless offensive coach deserves some of the blame because the same thing happened in LA when he replaced Phil, though not to the same extent. However, Lebron's coach was more of a positive than a negative because Brown being an excellent defensive coach was essential to Cleveland's success.

Kobe's playmaking was much closer to Lebron's this year than Lebron's scoring was to Kobe's scoring. Lebron grabbing 1 more rpg as a forward than Kobe got as a guard is a non-factor to me, and defense is not much of an advantage for either player in this comparison.

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lol a team that just comfortably defeated 47 win toronto featuring the best point guard in the league, 2 guard vince carter just coming off a 25/6/4 series, and exciting slasher small forward richard jefferson coming off a 22/5/3 series is not trash.

at best PG in the league, and that team is pretty much trash when they go .500 and their best big men are Mikki Moore, Jason Collins and Josh Boone.

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kobe with lebron's cast wouldn't have made the playoffs


It's also funny how you point out the difference in conferences when it works for your T-Mac argument, but not now when it doesn't work for your Lebron/Kobe argument. Kobe probably wouldn't have trouble making the playoffs backed with a top 4 defense and a team that was +3.7 rpg because of how capable Kobe is of carrying an offense. I do think Lebron is more of a natural in a ball-dominant role so I'm not sure he has as much success in that role, but I prefer a player who can play off the ball better like Kobe and I have my doubts Lebron makes the playoffs with Kobe's cast in the West.

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lol how many rebounds does a small forward have to get to impress you?

I have to watch them and be impressed by their rebounding.

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only if you agree to never bring up how a player or a team performed while a player was out again.

If it's a significant sample size(about 10 games or more) then I will, but I agree that a few games doesn't tell you much.

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nobody expected the magic to beat the celtics, who won 62 games. the celtics were no longer just the big 3, with rajon rondo stepping up to be one of the best 7 players in the world. kendrick perkins also stepped up huge in the playoffs and played like one of the league's best centers.

I thought Orlando would beat Boston, and I thought Cleveland might as well(though what I mainly remember is rooting against Cleveland because I thought they might make Lebron leave and come to NY.....he left, but not to NY )

Rondo was nowhere near a top 7 player, although you're right that they were no longer just a big 3 and both Rondo and Perkins did really step up, I'll give you that.

I still think the 2008 Celtics were much better, and the 2009 Celtics would have been as well if KG hadn't gone down.

Last edited by ShaqAttack3234 : 09-24-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:25 AM   #285
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You two really need your own thread lol
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