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Old 06-29-2012, 03:13 AM   #61
D.J.
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by PJR
I still remember Scottie Pippen absolutely BLASTING Barkely when they were with the Rockets, for his questionable dedication to working hard. Said he was just all about his numbers...


That has to do with his laziness, which anyone who watched Barkley play will admit to. Chuck was very lazy, but there's not many guys you would pick over him if you needed a big performance in a game 7.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:32 AM   #62
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Shep
well that is flat out wrong, considering he was 9th in 1991. and then there was 1988 where he was 10th, and then 11th in 1989, and then 10th in 1990, and then finally 16th in 1992.

He was 4th or 5th in '88 behind Bird, MJ, Magic and possibly Hakeem.

He was 3rd in '89 behind Jordan and Magic.

He was 4th in '90 beind Jordan, Magic and Ewing.

He fell out of the top 5 in '92, but 16 is way too low.

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he was third behind pippen

Pippen was nowhere near a top 2 player in '91 or Magic Johnson's level.

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robinson did have a disappointing playoffs (even though he did average 25.8ppg, 13.5rpg, 2.0apg, 1.5spg, 3.75bpg, on 69%fg), and he was demoted in the overall rankings due to that, but we can't totally discount his fantastic regular season. robinson was the second most valuable player in the nba, only behind michael jordan in that regard, and averaged 25.6ppg, led the league with 13.0rpg, 2.5apg, 1.5spg, and 3.9bpg, on 55%fg while leading the spurs to a 55-27 mark.

Robinson wasn't terrible in the Warriors series, I'm not saying that, and his numbers look great out of context, but they're largely a product of playing a team like Don Nelson's Warriors. But the numbers weren't really a consideration, just from watching that series, I can say that he didn't dominate it like he should have(we seem to be in agreement on that part).

As far as regular season, come to think of it, Robinson would be high on my list behind Jordan. It's between Magic and David Robinson for 2nd, though Magic had a deeper, more talented team that didn't deal with the same injuries that Robinson's Spurs did.

I don't have a big issue with you taking Robinson over Barkley as I said before. Robinson's defense is a major advantage, but Barkley's offensive dominance gives him the edge for me.

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on top of '91, stockton was also better than barkley in 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1992. fantastic floor general and leader, stockton was everything you could possibly ask out of your point guard. he could score, but he wouldn't shoot too much, he led the league in assists 9 straight seasons, was always in the top 5 is steals, and he shot the ball at a delicious clip from the field, 3 point, and free throw.

You're definitely overrating Stockton. He did do a brilliant job of running Utah's offense, and he was a nice defensive player as well. Solid shooter, pretty good off the dribble, and he was a capable scorer. But he wasn't a great scorer due to both mentality and creativity. He lacked the superstar ability to create off the dribble and was often overly passive when Utah needed him to step up and score more. He had very few big scoring games throughout his career, I appreciate his consistency, but even Jerry Sloan called him out at times for passing up shots he should have taken, and being too passive.

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as for 1990 rankings stockton is still ahead of kj despite kj having the better playoff run due to stockton's far superior regular season. are you going to rank kj ahead of magic johnson in 1990 aswell considering johnson beat magic's lakers 4-1


KJ is ahead of Stockton due to his ability to take over a game and dominant, while also being a pretty damn good passer. The Suns up tempo style probably helped his numbers a bit, but he was a nightmare with his crossover and automatic pull up mid-range shot. His scoring was a major advantage over Stockton's. He also led the league's 3rd best offense, who did have a lot of talent, but struggled mightily when KJ was out. KJ and Stockton were relatively close, which is why the playoffs seal the deal for me. KJ was considered by most to be the second best PG in the league that year. In a GM survey from before the playoffs, KJ finished second in best PG rankings behind Magic, and actually got quite a few votes for best PG, and he probably would have received more after his Suns upset the Lakers.

Magic Johnson had his 2nd or 3rd best year and was just in a different class than either KJ or Stockton. His dominant post game, and proficient 3 point shooting that season allowed him to control a game so much offensively in addition to the fact that he was arguably the best passer of all time, and the Lakers were now able to run their offense through magic in the post. Magic had become an excellent passer out of double teams and when he was guarded 1 on 1, he scored most of the time.

And the Suns upsetting the Lakers is different because I wouldn't say KJ even outplayed Magic. The Suns won because Dan Majerle primarily guarded Magic 1 on 1, and Magic made him pay with 30 ppg for the series and back to back 43 point games. But this strategy also proved very effective because it prevented the other Laker players from having success because they were used to feeding off Magic's double teams. And it also hurt the Lakers that Tom Chambers did a surprisingly good job defensively on Worthy.

KJ did have a good series vs a fine defender in Byron Scott, though, and I will assign some blame to Magic. Magic got burned defensively by Jeff Hornacek's shooting because Magic was never a good defender, and his habit of roaming often allowed shooters to go off.

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14 out of those 26 games were at home
of those 16 wins 3 were against the timberwolves (2 at home) who finished 29-53
2 wins were against the worst team in the nba (nuggets)
1 win was at home to the clippers (31-51)
2 wins against the cavs (33-49)

in 26 games they only ended up beating 3 teams with winning records. olajuwon then came back in and joined a team that was 9 over .500 and they finished 22 over .500.

Very nice work, you got me there. That does explain the mystery of Houston's success without Olajuwon that year, but Barkley still had a significant offensive advantage over Hakeem, and played 11 more games. Houston's success with Hakeem averaging only 18 ppg after his return just shows the difference between Hakeem in the mid 90's under Rudy T when he became a fantastic passer, and late 80's/early 90's Hakeem.

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slightley better in the regular season, and easily better in the playoffs. drexler led his team to the best record in the nba, and the conference finals. drexler was just superb in the playoffs, with averages of 21.7ppg, 8.1rpg, 8.1apg, 2.1spg, and 1.0bpg

I'd expect the best record with a cast of Terry Porter, Kevin Duckworth, Buck Williams, Clifford Robinson, Jerome Kersey and Danny Ainge.

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well obviously barkley should have been playing, otherwise they might not have went 5-10

Players get injured, but there will also be a limit to how many games you're going with a team that loses twice as many games as they win when you're out.

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baskets are baskets, easy baskets or difficult baskets. i know i'd rather have my power forward being in the right spots for layups than shooting fade away 3s with 15 seconds left on the shot clock.


I'd be fine with it if this style proved anywhere near as successful in the playoffs. I didn't penalize Lebron this year for living on transition baskets because he kept getting them in the playoffs.

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malone was aslo the vastly superior defender at that time.

True, but not the great defender he'd become so this didn't make enough of a difference to offset Barkley's offensive advantage.

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it will be due to games missed and 15 games is a bit chunk of the season. pippen was another forward in the top 10 that year, infact he was ranked 2nd. and as for forwards in the all-nba teams 1st team should've been malone and pippen. second team dominique wilkins and chris mullin. third team would be larry nance and charles barkley

Pippen came on strong in the second half, enough to make one of my all-nba teams if I made them, but however high I end up ranking him for the entire season will also have quite a bit to do with his playoffs. He just wasn't considered to be on rkley's level yet.

Barkley definitely ranks over Mullin, not only was he the more dominant scorer, but he gave you a lot more rebounding, and defense isn't a determing factor between these 2, I'd use the same argument for Nique.

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firstly reggie lewis was a small forward. dumars was nice but not on the level of hawkins in this one particular season, the others are nowhere in the vicinity.

Dumars was better than Hawkins, in addition to his defense, he was also a 20+ ppg scorer and capable of playing point guard, which he did when Isiah was out, as well as sometimes alternating roles with Isiah playing off the ball. He averaged around 22/7 when Isiah was out, iirc.

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or was it because barkley had the type of game that was hard to adjust to as a teammate? i know for example that kj was on pace to be one of the great all-time guards before barkley decided to force a trade to the 56 win suns team..and his career fizzled not long after.

KJ had a ton of injuries around that time, look at how many games he missed. But when he was healthier in '94, he had another great season.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:32 PM   #63
Round Mound
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Shep
don't forget barkley played with hall of famers hakeem olajuwon, scottie pippen, clyde drexler, moses malone, julius erving, andrew toney, and maurice cheeks

You forget Barkley was INJURED AND OVERWIGHT AGES 33 on
Hakeem was 33, Drexler was 34..PASSED THEIR PRIMES.

Moses Malone left for the 1985-86 Play-Offs so He Only Played with Him for a 1 SEASON as "Barkley Starting" while Malone had STOCKTON IN HIS OWN PRIME AND HIS PRIME...AND EATON IN HIS PRIME FOR 9 YEARS OR SO.

Dr J was 35-37 YEARS OLD AND PASSED HIS PRIME

And...Andrew Tone SUFFERED A CAREER ENDING INJURY in the 1985-86 SEASON.

CHEEKS? BETTER THAN STOCKTON?

Its a Fact Barkley was Better than Malone for 10 Years in a Row

HIGHER EFF
HIGHER PER
HIGHER +/-
HIGHER SHOT MADE/MISSED DIFERENTIAL

MALONE COULD NEVER PLAY LIKE THIS IN THE PLAY-OFFS...HE NEVE WAS BIG IN THE PLAY-OFFS...BARKLEY WAS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi-oVrsJ_20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMFT...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs-XO5h5bAg



Last edited by Round Mound : 06-29-2012 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:39 PM   #64
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by D.J.
Going by their peaks and individual skills, Barkley was better than Malone. Better at creating, more efficient scorer, more versatile, better rebounder, better passer, and better in the clutch. A common misconception is that Barkley was a terrible defender. Barkley wasn't a terrible defender at all. He was however, a very lazy defender. He took many plays off on D. He also wasn't big on conditioning, unlike Malone, who was a gym rat.

Now as far as teammates. Some like to say that Barkley had way more help. Not true. Barkley's only real help was his rookie year, where he had Moses(25/13), Dr. J(20/5), Toney(18/5), and Cheeks(13/6), and reached the ECF.

In '86, Moses didn't play at all in the playoffs. Chuck led the way, averaging 25/16/6 with Dr. J playing respectably, but clearly declining...and Mo Cheeks putting up 21/7/5 in the playoffs and they were 1 win away from the ECF.

In '87, Moses was gone, Dr. J was on his last legs, and Toney was a bench player. Cheeks was the only other real dependable player.

Then from '88 on, no Moses or Dr. J and Cheeks left in '89. His sources of help were Cliff Robinson, Mike Gminski, Hersey Hawkins, Ron Anderson, and Johnny Dawkins.

There were 3 years where the 76ers greatly overachieved solely because of Barkley's play. The 1st one was in '86 where Moses didn't play at all in the playoffs and they came within 1 win of the ECF with Barkley averaging 25/16/6 in the playoffs. The 2nd one was in '90 where Barkley led the 76ers to 53 wins and was robbed of MVP. The 3rd one was in '91 where the 76ers swept Milwaukee in the first round with Barkley averaging 24/11/7/3 on 52% shooting in the three games, including a triple-double in game 2.

Barkley at his best was the best player in the world not named Michael Jordan. As great as Malone was, he was never at that level of greatness. Malone never singlehandedly took over games and led otherwise mediocre teammates to victory like Barkley did. Malone often folded under pressure, something Barkley didn't do. Barkley may have had games where he didn't play as well as he should have, but he never flat out choked. He actually elevated his play in the playoffs. My only issue with Charles was his laziness. He took many plays off and that is something Malone didn't do. The better player was clearly Charles Barkley. The better career however, was clearly Karl Malone.

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Old 06-29-2012, 05:39 PM   #65
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Round Mound, I don't think you ever replied to this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Why does Kobe have 3 Playoff runs to the NBA Finals where he shot more efficiently than Barkley in his lone Playoff run to the NBA Finals?

Barkley '93 Playoffs: .488 eFG%, .552 TS%

Kobe '08 Playoffs: .514 eFG%, .577 TS%
Kobe '09 Playoffs: .492 eFG%, .564 TS% (won Championship)
Kobe '10 Playoffs: .506 eFG%, .567 TS% (won Championship)
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:47 PM   #66
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
Round Mound, I don't think you ever replied to this post

It gets quite EASy when you Play with the 2nd BEST CF in the League Pau Gasol IN YOU PRIME AND HIS PRIME. The 2-3rd Best Center in the League IN HIS PRIME AND YOUYR PRIME (Barkley neve had a Great Center in his OWN PRIME) in Bynum and the Best 6thman in the League Odom.

How About You Respond to This:

Barkley Higher PER Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher EFF Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher +/- Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher Made/Missed Shot Diferential Season and Play-Offs> Bryant
Barkley Higher WS Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher OWS Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant


BARKLEY WAS THE 2ND OR 3D MOST DOMINANT PLAYER FROM 1985-1995 AFTER MJ AND MAYBE HAKEEM

WAS KOBE EVER DOUBLED THE WAY BARKLEY WAS?
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:53 PM   #67
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Round Mound
It gets quite EASy when you Play with the 2nd BEST CF in the League Pau Gasol IN YOU PRIME AND HIS PRIME. The 2-3rd Best Center in the League IN HIS PRIME AND YOUYR PRIME (Barkley neve had a Great Center in his OWN PRIME) in Bynum and the Best 6thman in the League Odom.

How About You Respond to This:

Barkley Higher PER Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher EFF Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher +/- Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher Made/Missed Shot Diferential Season and Play-Offs> Bryant
Barkley Higher WS Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant
Barkley Higher OWS Season and Play-Offs than > Bryant


BARKLEY WAS THE 2ND OR 3D MOST DOMINANT PLAYER FROM 1985-1995 AFTER MJ AND MAYBE HAKEEM

WAS KOBE EVER DOUBLED THE WAY BARKLEY WAS?


What does Gasol and Bynum have to do with it?

Answer the question.
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:04 PM   #68
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow


What does Gasol and Bynum have to do with it?

Answer the question.

I did.

It gets quite easy when Gasol is Doubled and Bynum is in the Middle for Open Bryant Shots.

Bryant is and was Great but He Wasn`t and Isn`t a More Dominant Player than Barkley was. He wasn`t Close to as Doubled as Prime Barkley was. Prime Barkley was the 2nd Most Doubled Player Prior to Shaq
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:43 AM   #69
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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He was 4th or 5th in '88 behind Bird, MJ, Magic and possibly Hakeem.

He was 3rd in '89 behind Jordan and Magic.

He was 4th in '90 beind Jordan, Magic and Ewing.

He fell out of the top 5 in '92, but 16 is way too low.
in '88 the players ranked higher than barkley were michael jordan, magic johnson, larry bird, hakeem olajuwon, john stockton, isiah thomas, fat lever, james worthy, and dominique wilkins

in '89 the players ranked higher than barkley were jordan, johnson, olajuwon, thomas, kevin johnson, stockton, patrick ewing, worthy, tom chambers, and larry nance

in '90 the players ranked higher than barkley were jordan, david robinson, olajuwon, johnson, ewing, thomas, clyde drexler, stockton, and bird

in '92 barkley did not have the team success or individual success to be considered in the best 15 players in the nba.
Quote:
Pippen was nowhere near a top 2 player in '91 or Magic Johnson's level.
pippen's play in the playoffs proved he was the second best player in the nba
Quote:
Robinson wasn't terrible in the Warriors series, I'm not saying that, and his numbers look great out of context, but they're largely a product of playing a team like Don Nelson's Warriors. But the numbers weren't really a consideration, just from watching that series, I can say that he didn't dominate it like he should have(we seem to be in agreement on that part).
yeh he definately did not dominate that series like he should have, and was demoted from the second best player in the regular season to fourth best player after the playoffs because of it.
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As far as regular season, come to think of it, Robinson would be high on my list behind Jordan. It's between Magic and David Robinson for 2nd, though Magic had a deeper, more talented team that didn't deal with the same injuries that Robinson's Spurs did.
yeh magic did not make the top 5 most valuabe players in the regular season. after jordan and robinson it was stockton, pippen, and drexler rounding out the top 5.
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I don't have a big issue with you taking Robinson over Barkley as I said before. Robinson's defense is a major advantage, but Barkley's offensive dominance gives him the edge for me.
there was no real offensive advantage there. there was a massive defensive advantage to robinson, and offensively there was barely any advantage at all.

25.6ppg on 16.7fg, or 1.53 points per shot
compared to
27.6ppg on 17.4fg, or 1.59 points per shot

in the playoffs barkley stayed the same and robinson scored at a rate of over 2 points per shot

barkley had more assists because the ball was constantly in his hands
Quote:
You're definitely overrating Stockton. He did do a brilliant job of running Utah's offense, and he was a nice defensive player as well. Solid shooter, pretty good off the dribble, and he was a capable scorer. But he wasn't a great scorer due to both mentality and creativity. He lacked the superstar ability to create off the dribble and was often overly passive when Utah needed him to step up and score more. He had very few big scoring games throughout his career, I appreciate his consistency, but even Jerry Sloan called him out at times for passing up shots he should have taken, and being too passive.
you do not want your point guard to do all the scoring. he averaged the perfect number of points per game in 17.2, you do not want your point guard to shoot the ball all the time, he averaged 11.9fga per game. just because he doesn't score the ball at an all time level, he could contribute in alot more ways unlike barkley who if he wasn't scoring the ball he would be rendered useless.
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KJ is ahead of Stockton due to his ability to take over a game and dominant, while also being a pretty damn good passer. The Suns up tempo style probably helped his numbers a bit, but he was a nightmare with his crossover and automatic pull up mid-range shot. His scoring was a major advantage over Stockton's. He also led the league's 3rd best offense, who did have a lot of talent, but struggled mightily when KJ was out. KJ and Stockton were relatively close, which is why the playoffs seal the deal for me. KJ was considered by most to be the second best PG in the league that year. In a GM survey from before the playoffs, KJ finished second in best PG rankings behind Magic, and actually got quite a few votes for best PG, and he probably would have received more after his Suns upset the Lakers.
yeh at a top 4 pace in the league, kj definately was benefited from that high paced offense. stockton would average 18 points and 15 assists in that offense. the suns also had alot more help that season with depth that consisted of tom chambers, jeff hornacek, mark west (huge in the playoffs), dan majerle, and eddie johnson.
lol@gm survey's. there was magic and stockton, then there was kj and isiah thomas after the regular season. after the playoffs kj had slipped to fourth after magic, thomas, and stockton.
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Magic Johnson had his 2nd or 3rd best year and was just in a different class than either KJ or Stockton. His dominant post game, and proficient 3 point shooting that season allowed him to control a game so much offensively in addition to the fact that he was arguably the best passer of all time, and the Lakers were now able to run their offense through magic in the post. Magic had become an excellent passer out of double teams and when he was guarded 1 on 1, he scored most of the time.
magic was the best, just ahead of thomas.
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And the Suns upsetting the Lakers is different because I wouldn't say KJ even outplayed Magic. The Suns won because Dan Majerle primarily guarded Magic 1 on 1, and Magic made him pay with 30 ppg for the series and back to back 43 point games. But this strategy also proved very effective because it prevented the other Laker players from having success because they were used to feeding off Magic's double teams. And it also hurt the Lakers that Tom Chambers did a surprisingly good job defensively on Worthy.
magic just did not have a good playoffs, not for someone of his standards anyway, especially after the regular season he and the lakers had, and if he was any sort of defensive player would've been matched with kj. in any case he was still the best point guard and top 4 overall that season.
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I'd expect the best record with a cast of Terry Porter, Kevin Duckworth, Buck Williams, Clifford Robinson, Jerome Kersey and Danny Ainge.
lots of teams have hopes of having the best record, only 1 ended up with it. clyde drexler was that teams best player.
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Players get injured, but there will also be a limit to how many games you're going with a team that loses twice as many games as they win when you're out.
malone didn't get injured. his team got full value out of him and didn't have to pay him to sit on the bench.
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I'd be fine with it if this style proved anywhere near as successful in the playoffs. I didn't penalize Lebron this year for living on transition baskets because he kept getting them in the playoffs.
this style was easily more successful than barkley's style in the playoffs.
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True, but not the great defender he'd become so this didn't make enough of a difference to offset Barkley's offensive advantage.
there is no advantage
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Pippen came on strong in the second half, enough to make one of my all-nba teams if I made them, but however high I end up ranking him for the entire season will also have quite a bit to do with his playoffs. He just wasn't considered to be on rkley's level yet.

Quote:
Barkley definitely ranks over Mullin, not only was he the more dominant scorer, but he gave you a lot more rebounding, and defense isn't a determing factor between these 2, I'd use the same argument for Nique.
wilkins is easily over barkley here.
25.9ppg, 9.0rpg, 3.3apg, 1.5spg, 0.8bpg, 47%fg, 81 games, 43 wins, huge margin between him and his next best player
mullin, also is easily over barkley
25.7ppg, 5.4rpg, 4.0apg, 2.1spg, 0.8bpg, 54%fg, 82 games, 44 wins

barkley might have been the better player, but games played plays a bit part in these all-nba teams for me, as you are not much use sitting out injured or suspended when your team needs you out on the court contributing.
Quote:
Dumars was better than Hawkins, in addition to his defense, he was also a 20+ ppg scorer and capable of playing point guard, which he did when Isiah was out, as well as sometimes alternating roles with Isiah playing off the ball. He averaged around 22/7 when Isiah was out, iirc.
there was no aspect dumars was better than hawkins in this particular season, besides on ball defense.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:53 AM   #70
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

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Originally Posted by Round Mound
I did.

It gets quite easy when Gasol is Doubled and Bynum is in the Middle for Open Bryant Shots.

Bryant is and was Great but He Wasn`t and Isn`t a More Dominant Player than Barkley was. He wasn`t Close to as Doubled as Prime Barkley was. Prime Barkley was the 2nd Most Doubled Player Prior to Shaq
Gasol and Bynum got doubled in '08-'10 Playoffs??

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Old 07-01-2012, 01:17 AM   #71
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

You can say Barkley was better than Malone in the year of 1992.

But after that, Malone's better.

B/c Barkley always out of shape to start the season. Malone always in great shape.

BTW they both suck in crunch time.
Malone always shrink.
And Barkley thought he can take over the game the way MJ did. but always end up with stupid three-pointer.
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Old 07-01-2012, 01:56 AM   #72
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
in '88 the players ranked higher than barkley were michael jordan, magic johnson, larry bird, hakeem olajuwon, john stockton, isiah thomas, fat lever, james worthy, and dominique wilkins

You're correct on your first 4, and that may even be the correct order.

Nique was close, I'd rank him 6th, this was probably his 2nd or 3rd best season. The others don't really have a case.

Quote:
in '89 the players ranked higher than barkley were jordan, johnson, olajuwon, thomas, kevin johnson, stockton, patrick ewing, worthy, tom chambers, and larry nance

Correct on Jordan and Magic, the top 2 in that order. Nobody would argue against those 2 in their prime. Hakeem was close, I have him just behind at 4th, but had to think about it, so no big argument here.

Ewing? No, he might be top 5, but he wasn't better than Barkley yet.

I can't see a case for any of those players mentioned other than the Michael and Magic who were better, and Olajuwon who you could make a case for.

Quote:
in '90 the players ranked higher than barkley were jordan, david robinson, olajuwon, johnson, ewing, thomas, clyde drexler, stockton, and bird

Correct about Jordasn, Magic and Ewing in that order, but no more. Hakeem and Robinson were relatively close. The others weren't even debatable. I can't see a case for any of them.

Quote:
in '92 barkley did not have the team success or individual success to be considered in the best 15 players in the nba.

Barkley did have individual success. 23/11/4 on 55% shooting. How many can do that? Despite a lazy season, Barkley's talent still put him above enough players to comfortably make the top 10.

You're literally putting Barkley below quite a few players, I've never once heard anyone claim were as good as Barkley, much less better.

Quote:
pippen's play in the playoffs proved he was the second best player in the nba

Nah, I'm as big of a Pippen fan as anyone, and his playoff run was excellent, but he was a tier below the guys like Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Ewing and probably still Olajuwon despite the 26 missed games. And even a guy like Drexler who had similar weaknesses to Pippen still seemed to be the better player, and was widely regarded as such.

yeh he definately did not dominate that series like he should have, and was demoted from the second best player in the regular season to fourth best player after the playoffs because of it.

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yeh magic did not make the top 5 most valuabe players in the regular season. after jordan and robinson it was stockton, pippen, and drexler rounding out the top 5.

I'm really having trouble seeing how you end up putting Stockton in the class of the top 5 players, when he was very good at what he did, but didn't have the dominance to be put in that group, and certainly not to compete with Magic. Stockton wasn't even the MVP of his own team(though he was closer to Malone from '88-'91 than he was after).

Drexler's value on a basketball court wasn't comparable. And Pippen couldn't impact a game like Magic either, and case for MVP is clearly worse considering he was on the same team as the MVP and the best player ever who was arguably at his peak.

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there was no real offensive advantage there. there was a massive defensive advantage to robinson, and offensively there was barely any advantage at all.

25.6ppg on 16.7fg, or 1.53 points per shot
compared to
27.6ppg on 17.4fg, or 1.59 points per shot

Barkley was a much better offensive player. He was almost impossible to deal with when he had his back to the basket which is why he was probably getting doubled and receiving more defensive attention than anyone in the league. And he was a better passer, particularly at that point. Robinson became one of the league's best passing centers around '93-'96, and also improved his jump shot around then.

Regardless of Barkley having better numbers, he was simply the better offensive player at that end, while Robinson never achieved offensive dominance. This was because he never had a go to move with his back to the basket, didn't really have the right build for being a post player, lacked good footwork and just seemed awkward and uncomfortable backing his man down. This is why his scoring average usually dropped dramatically despite scoring a lot in the regular season due to his unmatched ability to run the floor, being a perfect target for alley oops, being too quick for opposing centers to deal with when he faced up(though he always attacked the basket less in the postseason) and later, adding a decent jump shot. But Robinson was a dominant defensive player and a good to very good offensive player. Barkley was a dominant offensive player.

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in the playoffs barkley stayed the same and robinson scored at a rate of over 2 points per shot

Barkley played 2 series, and didn't face Don Nelson's Warriors. When a slightly past his prime Barkley faced Nelson's Warriors(who had a better frontcourt in '94) he averaged 37/13/6/3 on 61 FG%. Opponents numbers vs Nelson's Warriors were almost always inflated.

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barkley had more assists because the ball was constantly in his hands

He was a better passer too, not that assists sum up passing ability.

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you do not want your point guard to do all the scoring. he averaged the perfect number of points per game in 17.2, you do not want your point guard to shoot the ball all the time, he averaged 11.9fga per game. just because he doesn't score the ball at an all time level, he could contribute in alot more ways unlike barkley who if he wasn't scoring the ball he would be rendered useless.

I appreciate Stockton's game, he did the job of a pure PG extremely well, but I also want my point guard to step up and carry a team when necessary. Stockton just wasn't comfortable doing that. And that's why he was never a first tier, top 5 player and MVP candidate. Even a guy like Jason Kidd who wasn't the most talented scorer, would step up, assert himself and carry a team when he had to.

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yeh at a top 4 pace in the league, kj definately was benefited from that high paced offense. stockton would average 18 points and 15 assists in that offense. the suns also had alot more help that season with depth that consisted of tom chambers, jeff hornacek, mark west (huge in the playoffs), dan majerle, and eddie johnson.
lol@gm survey's. there was magic and stockton, then there was kj and isiah thomas after the regular season. after the playoffs kj had slipped to fourth after magic, thomas, and stockton.

I don't think KJ benefited from the Suns pace anymore than Stockton benefited from Sloan's system and having a team who fit perfect with him in Malone.

Besides, I'm not basing my selection of KJ over Stockton primarily on numbers. KJ's explosiveness and duel threat of taking over a game with scoring or setting up his teammates as well as his superior playoff run is why I chose KJ. It's not a big gap for me, but I'm confident in choosing KJ that year.

And while the Suns did looked loaded on paper, and they clearly had some great players like Chambers, Eddie Johnson and Hornacek, their offense wasn't looking so hot when KJ was out. With them, they're a prolific offensive team that's almost impossible to stop.

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magic just did not have a good playoffs, not for someone of his standards anyway, especially after the regular season he and the lakers had, and if he was any sort of defensive player would've been matched with kj. in any case he was still the best point guard and top 4 overall that season.

He controlled the game too much offensively with his post game, outside shot, transition game, and of course, his passing from anywhere on the court to be ranked anywhere less than 2nd despite Ewing's dominant year.

I agree about Magic's defense, but he probably had his 2nd best year in '90, behind only '87 and possibly '89.

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lots of teams have hopes of having the best record, only 1 ended up with it. clyde drexler was that teams best player.

And only one team had the talent Portland had.

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malone didn't get injured. his team got full value out of him and didn't have to pay him to sit on the bench.

I'm not going to deny that Malone's durability is an advantage, but he wasn't better out on the basketball court, and Barkley's injuries exposed his cast as limited.

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this style was easily more successful than barkley's style in the playoffs.

Absolutely not.

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there is no advantage

That's just laughable, all one has to do is watch a few games from both players that year to see Barkley's superiority offensively. Not even a peak '98 Karl Malone can compete with prime '88-'93 Barkley offensively.

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wilkins is easily over barkley here.
25.9ppg, 9.0rpg, 3.3apg, 1.5spg, 0.8bpg, 47%fg, 81 games, 43 wins, huge margin between him and his next best player
mullin, also is easily over barkley
25.7ppg, 5.4rpg, 4.0apg, 2.1spg, 0.8bpg, 54%fg, 82 games, 44 wins

barkley might have been the better player, but games played plays a bit part in these all-nba teams for me, as you are not much use sitting out injured or suspended when your team needs you out on the court contributing.

I'm not going to argue with your criteria for all-nba teams since you acknowledge Barkley was the better player.

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there was no aspect dumars was better than hawkins in this particular season, besides on ball defense.

Dumars was also clearly the better passer and playmaker. Hawkins has the edge as a scorer, but I don't think the gap is that big.

Reggie Lewis was a shooting guard by the way. Kevin Gamble was the small forward in the starting lineup, and Bird was the small forward when McHale came into the game.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:14 AM   #73
Round Mound
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Barkley Was Better than Malone for 10 Seasons.

From 85 to 95

Higher PER: Top 10 All Time Season and Play-Offs!!!
Higher WS
Higher OWS
Higher OS
Higher +/-: Top 5 All Time!!!
Higher Shot Made/Missed Diferential: Top 4 All Time!!!

Malone Was Better For Barkley`s Last 5-6 Seasons: When He Whent to Houston as a Crippled Overweight Knee Broken and Back Aching Shell Former of Himself (Injuries, Gained Weight, Lost Agility, Lost Explosivness, Lost Potence, Lost Leaping Ability)

Last edited by Round Mound : 07-01-2012 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:24 AM   #74
Linspired
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep
in '88 the players ranked higher than barkley were michael jordan, magic johnson, larry bird, hakeem olajuwon, john stockton, isiah thomas, fat lever, james worthy, and dominique wilkins

wait a minute? what? fat friggin lever over barkley?

in 1988-1989

barkley had
25.8/12.5/3.9/1.9stl/.8blk .579%

hakeem had
24.8/13.5/1.8/2.6stl/3.4blk .508%

pretty damn comparable IMO. barkley was no doubt top 7 that year as far as production goes
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:42 PM   #75
D.J.
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Default Re: Barkley: I'm better than Malone

Fat Lever over Charles Barkley??? What is ISH coming to? I had to do a double take because I thought my eyes were deceiving me.
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