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Old 06-30-2012, 09:31 AM   #31
bluerap
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Originally Posted by bokes15
The difference is that Boston's picks were valuable. Al Jefferson by himself could bring in more than a package with Derozan, Ed Davis, Amir Jonshon and James Josnson combined.

obviously you need a gm that is focused on the draft and able to make quality picks. invest more in scouting like the jays. i'm sure you can lure some of the top scouts with higher pay. go fishing in sa and okc.
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:41 AM   #32
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But then on the other hand i'd secretly be happy to see him in a Raptors jersey, even though i'd know that logically it's not the right move.

That's exactly how I feel.

Bringing on a 38-year-old for massive money is precisely the last thing the Raptors should be doing, but... it's Nash. It'd be great to have him play for the Canadian NBA team before he retires, he'll be awesome to watch and he could have a big positive impact on the development of DeRozan, Valanciunas, Ross, Davis, and maybe even players who'd previously seemed like lost causes who'd never reach their potential like Bayless and Bargnani.

I've never thought the Raptors could make the playoffs next year, but Nash is the one realistic move they could make that might change that. (Not that they should be looking to get into the playoffs, but they could get there. with him.)

I would have thought that Calderon still had some trade value, and it would be sad to see him go (he's one of my favorite Raptors ever), but obviously even a 38-year-old Nash is vastly superior to him and worth clearing room for.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

Nash isn't a bad move for all the reasons stated, but I bet they are going to through stupid money at him and it will be bad for everyone.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:35 AM   #34
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pierce was drafted, garnett and allen were trades. had nothing to do with fa.

Fair enough, and although players are under contract to a team they are traded to, they might not actually report to the team (Zo), or lack any kind of motivation.

My main argument with a complete build through the draft would be that it is completely hit or miss. The cats went to extreme measures to tank, and ended up with a tier 2 talent from this draft class. You need to luck out on so many things such as the lottery, the draft class, who's on the board when you're on the clock, if the player will develop in your system, if they will every reach their potential. Add to that the fact that if you are a losing culture, there's a chance that talent does not choose to resign.

I'd love nothing more than to see the raps draft the next KD, my 2nd favorite team behind the raps is okc. But what they did and how all the pieces came together has much more to do with luck, and is not as easy as "let's tank to get a high pick, then trade away players for more picks."

The raps need an established leader. There is voice to our team.
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:17 PM   #35
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Fair enough, and although players are under contract to a team they are traded to, they might not actually report to the team (Zo), or lack any kind of motivation.

My main argument with a complete build through the draft would be that it is completely hit or miss. The cats went to extreme measures to tank, and ended up with a tier 2 talent from this draft class. You need to luck out on so many things such as the lottery, the draft class, who's on the board when you're on the clock, if the player will develop in your system, if they will every reach their potential. Add to that the fact that if you are a losing culture, there's a chance that talent does not choose to resign.

I'd love nothing more than to see the raps draft the next KD, my 2nd favorite team behind the raps is okc. But what they did and how all the pieces came together has much more to do with luck, and is not as easy as "let's tank to get a high pick, then trade away players for more picks."

The raps need an established leader. There is voice to our team.

your plan = spinning on the mediocrity treadmill.

charlotte is doing an excellent job of building. you can't see it yet because they are only finished year 2.

You don't need kd to build through the draft.
Look at portland. Sure Brandon roy and Oden had injuries, but that could just as easily happen to a fa. In fact I am willing to bet my left nut that steve nash will miss significant time over the life of his next contract due to his aging back.

Anyway Portland did it right. It didn't work out long term but they are doing it right again.

Now they have Lillard, Wes Mathews, Batum, Aldridge and Leonard to build around. That is a solid core. 4 players acquired through the draft and one SMART high value low cost fa acquisition.

There are GM's out there that can do a proper job. It is time to part ways with BC. I think he should get another chance with another franchise, but he hasn't done the job here as evidenced by the current state of the franchise.
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Old 06-30-2012, 02:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Originally Posted by bluerap
your plan = spinning on the mediocrity treadmill.

charlotte is doing an excellent job of building. you can't see it yet because they are only finished year 2.

You don't need kd to build through the draft.
Look at portland. Sure Brandon roy and Oden had injuries, but that could just as easily happen to a fa. In fact I am willing to bet my left nut that steve nash will miss significant time over the life of his next contract due to his aging back.

Anyway Portland did it right. It didn't work out long term but they are doing it right again.

Now they have Lillard, Wes Mathews, Batum, Aldridge and Leonard to build around. That is a solid core. 4 players acquired through the draft and one SMART high value low cost fa acquisition.

There are GM's out there that can do a proper job. It is time to part ways with BC. I think he should get another chance with another franchise, but he hasn't done the job here as evidenced by the current state of the franchise.

We've tried that avenue and failed. Bargs, DD, Davis (although I believe he hasn't been given the proper opportunity), Val and now Ross and acy is our version of building through the draft. We've had decent (not great) position in recent drafts, and our scouts and management thought they were taking the best players at that spot. We now know how they are starting to play out, and it's not the outcome we hoped for. It's not as if the organization wants to do harm to the franchise, it's just that every decision they've made has not panned out.

You use the example of Portland, are they that close to a championship? Even 5 years down the line it still may not be good enough to win a title. You mention Batum in the list, but will he stay with the blazers? And you can't use Oden and Roy as a crutch because injuries do happen, although they were crippling blows. The fact of the matter is that the raps are capable of winning with a few adjustments. Also, there are teams that deliberately tank (which I would hate) and actually suck more than us to warrant chasing free agents to increase the talent.

It will be extremely difficult to replicate a team like okc. But let me ask, would it be so terrible to be in the situation the hawks were in the last few years? Better than mediocre, but the fact was that there were better teams in the league.
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Old 06-30-2012, 02:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Originally Posted by clipse
We've tried that avenue and failed. Bargs, DD, Davis (although I believe he hasn't been given the proper opportunity), Val and now Ross and acy is our version of building through the draft. We've had decent (not great) position in recent drafts, and our scouts and management thought they were taking the best players at that spot. We now know how they are starting to play out, and it's not the outcome we hoped for. It's not as if the organization wants to do harm to the franchise, it's just that every decision they've made has not panned out.

You use the example of Portland, are they that close to a championship? Even 5 years down the line it still may not be good enough to win a title. You mention Batum in the list, but will he stay with the blazers? And you can't use Oden and Roy as a crutch because injuries do happen, although they were crippling blows. The fact of the matter is that the raps are capable of winning with a few adjustments. Also, there are teams that deliberately tank (which I would hate) and actually suck more than us to warrant chasing free agents to increase the talent.

It will be extremely difficult to replicate a team like okc. But let me ask, would it be so terrible to be in the situation the hawks were in the last few years? Better than mediocre, but the fact was that there were better teams in the league.

YES. I would rather lose for years on end and just get lottery picks that lead to nothing (our situation now) than pretend to be a good team like the Hawks.
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Old 06-30-2012, 03:22 PM   #38
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YES. I would rather lose for years on end and just get lottery picks that lead to nothing (our situation now) than pretend to be a good team like the Hawks.

In that case, we just don't see eye to eye, much like the current fan base which doesn't know whether to cheer or give up hope.

For myself, as a fan and competitive person, another foray into rebuilding would drive me insane.

28 teams will fall short of the finals every year. As I heard Charles Barkley once say "the operation was a success, but the patient died" for many of the contending teams. The fact is there can only be one champion. For all other teams, they must tweak their rosters to improve. So what if the raps finish 8th and exit after the 1st round. The young guys will get playoff experience, and management can take steps FORWARD to climb the ladder.

The main thing we all have in common is that we all want the Raps to win a title. However, people envision different means to attain that goal. None are wrong, unfortunately many of them conflict with others, especially for the lone team in Canada which has to fight twice as hard to get players through other means than the draft.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:06 PM   #39
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Originally Posted by clipse
In that case, we just don't see eye to eye, much like the current fan base which doesn't know whether to cheer or give up hope.

For myself, as a fan and competitive person, another foray into rebuilding would drive me insane.

28 teams will fall short of the finals every year. As I heard Charles Barkley once say "the operation was a success, but the patient died" for many of the contending teams. The fact is there can only be one champion. For all other teams, they must tweak their rosters to improve. So what if the raps finish 8th and exit after the 1st round. The young guys will get playoff experience, and management can take steps FORWARD to climb the ladder.

The main thing we all have in common is that we all want the Raps to win a title. However, people envision different means to attain that goal. None are wrong, unfortunately many of them conflict with others, especially for the lone team in Canada which has to fight twice as hard to get players through other means than the draft.

The Hawks have loads of playoff experience by now. But nobody takes them seriously or gives them an honest chance of ever getting out of the East, nevermind winning the finals as well. So what do they have? They have a roster of overpaid 2nd and 3rd tier stars that aren't getting any younger or any better. Their max per se is the second round of the playoffs. Compared to that, I would rather just keep sucking until the time comes when we eventually get lucky and draft a superstar. We're not in a situation like Charlotte and New Orleans or even Sacramento where they have a real problem of possibly losing their franchise. Even if the Raptors continue to suck they are the only team of Canada and we will in a likely hood probably not lose it. In that case I would rather just hold out and build a true contender, not a pretender like the Hawks and Sixers.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:17 AM   #40
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Originally Posted by Prodigy
YES. I would rather lose for years on end and just get lottery picks that lead to nothing (our situation now) than pretend to be a good team like the Hawks.
That right there is the pretty obvious divide among the forum right now. There's those who are willing to wait another 10 years or more for a contender by building solely through the draft, and then there's those (like myself) who would much prefer an action plan to make it happen faster than that rather than to suffer like the Clippers did to get where they're at. By an action plan, I don't mean give Nash 10 Mill/year and have him carry us into the last playoff spot in the East. But I do mean if the opportunity presents itself to trade some of our young pieces for an established all-star wing player in his prime we take it. That guy alone won't carry us to the championship, but it'd be a legit building block rather than a total crap shoot. As i've said before, very few teams have managed to successfully build themselves that way. Maybe they luck into one superstar talent via the draft and then build around that guy. But getting a bunch of 3rd tier young guys like we have isn't gonna get you anywhere. You have to spend money and take risks to win a championship.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:39 AM   #41
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Originally Posted by bokes15
That right there is the pretty obvious divide among the forum right now. There's those who are willing to wait another 10 years or more for a contender by building solely through the draft, and then there's those (like myself) who would much prefer an action plan to make it happen faster than that rather than to suffer like the Clippers did to get where they're at. By an action plan, I don't mean give Nash 10 Mill/year and have him carry us into the last playoff spot in the East. But I do mean if the opportunity presents itself to trade some of our young pieces for an established all-star wing player in his prime we take it. That guy alone won't carry us to the championship, but it'd be a legit building block rather than a total crap shoot. As i've said before, very few teams have managed to successfully build themselves that way. Maybe they luck into one superstar talent via the draft and then build around that guy. But getting a bunch of 3rd tier young guys like we have isn't gonna get you anywhere. You have to spend money and take risks to win a championship.

Our guys aren't even third tier. The guys on the Hawks are third tier. I'm all for signing talent like Lowry to reasonable contracts but I DO NOT want a situation like the Hawks have.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:24 AM   #42
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Our guys aren't even third tier. The guys on the Hawks are third tier. I'm all for signing talent like Lowry to reasonable contracts but I DO NOT want a situation like the Hawks have.
Even furthers my point. I understand to an extent wanting to wait and literally make no big moves at all in hopes of Blake Griffin, Kevin Durant, Lebron James... Or hell even guys like Cousins, Monroe, Rubio, Lawson, Gordon, etc... guys who aren't all-stars/superstars but could be very solid support pieces on a contender. In the past 7 seasons since BC has been here we haven't gotten any such pieces and I for one am not willing to ride it out with crappy teams in hopes that one or 3 of those guys comes along someday over the rainbow. Amazingly, this season I purchased NBA league pass broadband for the first time and even while having the option to watch all the Raps games with the exception of the local blackout games I don't think there was even one game I sat down and watched from beginning to end. I don't know how any Raptors fan can actually want to sit around and hope for a draft miracle.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:26 AM   #43
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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Even furthers my point. I understand to an extent wanting to wait and literally make no big moves at all in hopes of Blake Griffin, Kevin Durant, Lebron James... Or hell even guys like Cousins, Monroe, Rubio, Lawson, Gordon, etc... guys who aren't all-stars/superstars but could be very solid support pieces on a contender. In the past 7 seasons since BC has been here we haven't gotten any such pieces and I for one am not willing to ride it out with crappy teams in hopes that one or 3 of those guys comes along someday over the rainbow. Amazingly, this season I purchased NBA league pass broadband for the first time and even while having the option to watch all the Raps games with the exception of the local blackout games I don't think there was even one game I sat down and watched from beginning to end. I don't know how any Raptors fan can actually want to sit around and hope for a draft miracle.


For me it's this and you also have to just simply come to realize that with the current management group in place that a full and proper rebuild through the draft just isn't ever gonna happen.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:51 AM   #44
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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For me it's this and you also have to just simply come to realize that with the current management group in place that a full and proper rebuild through the draft just isn't ever gonna happen.
Exactly, that too. It'd be a different story if I trusted the management group to fully commit and to be capable of making good decisions in that regard.
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:11 AM   #45
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Default Re: BC on the fan this AM

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For me it's this and you also have to just simply come to realize that with the current management group in place that a full and proper rebuild through the draft just isn't ever gonna happen.


Well, we can still hope that BC fails this year and is finally canned.
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