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Old 06-29-2012, 11:14 PM   #16
OldSchoolBBall
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
One of many unbelievable games that run. He had 43/15/10 just 2 games earlier. He was incredible in the Spurs series too. He played about as well as you can play in game 2. Had 35 points, 10 rebounds, 7 steals and 3 blocks on 12/18 shooting in 35 minutes, and it's the type of game where he was doing absolutely whatever he wanted, and could've dropped 50+ had he pushed it and looked to get his and see how many he could get. Then he puts up 19 in the 4th quarter in game 5 to finish with 36/12/3 on 11/16 shooting, and then decides that 28 points and 21 rebounds plus the series-winning shot over David Robinson is a good encore for game 6. Those were some of my favorite Barkley games to watch.

Also had 43/13/4 on 16/26 shooting in game 2 of the finals and 32/12/10 in game 4 of the finals.

Charles was hungry for a title that year, it didn't happen obviously, but he was killing it. That was the only contending team he had in his prime before injuries and age took away a bit from his game, and the first legitimate contender he was on since his rookie year considering Moses was injured in '86.

Prime Barkley was an absolute monster. Talent-wise, he's way higher on the all-time list than where he's actually ranked career-wise imo. One of the most creative and athletic players ever, with guard skills in a PF body.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Prime Barkley was an absolute monster. Talent-wise, he's way higher on the all-time list than where he's actually ranked career-wise imo. One of the most creative and athletic players ever, with guard skills in a PF body.
Where do you have Barkley ranked all-time and among PFs? It is also an interesting debate when you rank KG, Malone, Barkley, and Dirk. It is almost always different among everybody.

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Charles was hungry for a title that year, it didn't happen obviously, but he was killing it. That was the only contending team he had in his prime before injuries and age took away a bit from his game, and the first legitimate contender he was on since his rookie year considering Moses was injured in '86.
Unfortunate for Chuck too because I've heard many times that this '93 Suns team was considered one of the best runner up finalists of all-time.
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Old 06-30-2012, 08:07 AM   #18
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Where do you have Barkley ranked all-time and among PFs? It is also an interesting debate when you rank KG, Malone, Barkley, and Dirk. It is almost always different among everybody.


Unfortunate for Chuck too because I've heard many times that this '93 Suns team was considered one of the best runner up finalists of all-time.

I don't tend to think of Dirk as a PF even though he is, so he's hard to rank. Career-wise Barkley is definitely ahead of him despite the title last year because Barkley had more years as a legit top 2-4 player in the league ('89-'93) and was a BEAST in the postseason (even more so than Dirk, who's great there too).

I definitely take Barkley over Malone and KG UNLESS a team's entire identity is a defensive one a la the '08-'12 Celts and they ALSO have more than enough offensive firepower, where KG becomes a more valuable piece than Barkley (can you imagine '04-'06 KG on the '08-'11 Celts? Scary). On most teams, though, prime Barkley would severely outplay prime KG in a playoff series (like 27/12/4/54% FG/63% TS vs. 22/12/4/47% FG/54% TS) because KG's defensive impact on such teams isn't enough to offset Barkley's large offensive edge. Barkley also has a significantly higher top end he can reach when needed (as in the game this topic is about) that isn't really reflected when you look at each of their average per game stats. I feel this is a point often overlooked when comparing great players. Duncan is the only PF I would take over prime Barkley.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by DatAsh
Malone vs Barkley is a battle of longevity vs dominant prime. It can go either way depending on what you value more. Personally, I tend to weigh how good a player was in his prime over longevity. That's why I have Barkley over Malone.

Barkley from 88-93 was a monster on the boards and on the offensive end. Malone's prime, although great, never really reached those levels.

I'm in complete agreement with this. I go by who had the better prime, unless primes are extremely close.

You're right about Barkley from '88-'93, what people forget is that outside of '92, you could argue that pretty much any of Barkley's prime years was his best.

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Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Jordan tended to do that to people. The only players on the Dream Team to get a championship while Jordan wasn't retired were Magic and Bird and that was before Jordan's prime. Pippen, obviously, played with him. Robinson and Drexler won when he was out of the game. Ewing, Stockton, Malone and Barkley were all stopped by Jordan's bulls.

Jordan wasn't out of the league when Drexler won his ring. He lost to the Magic in the ECSF, who Hakeem/Clyde's Rockets beat in the finals.

The guy who repeatedly got beaten by Jordan's teams was Ewing. In '89, '91, '92, '93 and '96.

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Prime Barkley was an absolute monster. Talent-wise, he's way higher on the all-time list than where he's actually ranked career-wise imo. One of the most creative and athletic players ever, with guard skills in a PF body.

I have Charles around top 15. His offensive dominance, drawing double teams, overpowering guys, and also his rebounding go beyond numbers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StateOfMind12
Unfortunate for Chuck too because I've heard many times that this '93 Suns team was considered one of the best runner up finalists of all-time.

And it's really unfortunate that he started to have those back problems. He had started off the '93-'94 season playing like he did in '93 before the injuries, and KJ was back at his superstar level that year.

Phoenix just barely lost to Houston in '94 and '95, a prime level Barkley probably would have made the difference.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:32 AM   #20
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I have Charles around top 15. His offensive dominance, drawing double teams, overpowering guys, and also his rebounding go beyond numbers.

I agree. I generally have him in the 14-16 range too. Had he won even a single title, he'd be either 11 or 12, moving past Karl Malone and Jerry West and possibly Dr. J too.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
I agree. I generally have him in the 14-16 range too. Had he won even a single title, he'd be either 11 or 12, moving past Karl Malone and Jerry West and possibly Dr. J too.

I already have him above Dr. J and Malone. Barkley vs Malone is easy for me. I didn't see Malone reach the level Barkley was at from '88-'93. During that time period when Malone was already elite, he was only better than Barkley in the '92 season, and that's only because it was a down year for Barkley when he wasn't motivated and wanted out, plus, that was one of the few years Malone wasn't disappointing to me in the playoffs, particularly in the late 80's/early 90's.

I liked Malone's game more from '94-'00 when he really became an elite post defender, a very good passer, and a more polished offensive player with a better jump shot. He still benefited from Stockton, and his offensive game didn't translate quite as well to the playoffs, but those 2 things weren't as big factors as they were in the late 80's/early 90's, imo.

And I don't think '94-'00 Malone was as good as '88-'93 Barkley either. Not even '98 which I think was Karl's peak.

By the way, what do you think Barkley's peak was? His level of play in '89, '90, '91 and '93 is pretty similar. Most usually say either '90 or '93, but the big difference between '90 and '91 was that the Sixers team wasn't as good. The Gminski for Gilliam trade didn't work since Gilliam was more of a post player and didn't fit with Barkley and Johnny Dawkins pretty much missed the '91 season. Over his first 35 games before he got injured, Charles was averaging 30.8 ppg/10.4 rpg/3.7 apg on 59.6 FG%/64.6 TS% and right up there with Jordan, Bernard King and Orlando Woolridge(a product of Westhead's ridiculous system that year) for the scoring title.

I'd side with '90 or '93 myself, but people forget how well Barkley was playing in '91.
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I already have him above Dr. J and Malone. Barkley vs Malone is easy for me. I didn't see Malone reach the level Barkley was at from '88-'93. During that time period when Malone was already elite, he was only better than Barkley in the '92 season, and that's only because it was a down year for Barkley when he wasn't motivated and wanted out, plus, that was one of the few years Malone wasn't disappointing to me in the playoffs, particularly in the late 80's/early 90's.

I liked Malone's game more from '94-'00 when he really became an elite post defender, a very good passer, and a more polished offensive player with a better jump shot. He still benefited from Stockton, and his offensive game didn't translate quite as well to the playoffs, but those 2 things weren't as big factors as they were in the late 80's/early 90's, imo.

And I don't think '94-'00 Malone was as good as '88-'93 Barkley either. Not even '98 which I think was Karl's peak.

By the way, what do you think Barkley's peak was? His level of play in '89, '90, '91 and '93 is pretty similar. Most usually say either '90 or '93, but the big difference between '90 and '91 was that the Sixers team wasn't as good. The Gminski for Gilliam trade didn't work since Gilliam was more of a post player and didn't fit with Barkley and Johnny Dawkins pretty much missed the '91 season. Over his first 35 games before he got injured, Charles was averaging 30.8 ppg/10.4 rpg/3.7 apg on 59.6 FG%/64.6 TS% and right up there with Jordan, Bernard King and Orlando Woolridge(a product of Westhead's ridiculous system that year) for the scoring title.

I'd side with '90 or '93 myself, but people forget how well Barkley was playing in '91.

Well, you clearly rank guys based on level of play, which to me is only one criteria (though I do place more importance on that criteria than most do). I rank guys based on overall resume and level of play, so Malone's two MVP's and longevity put him above Barkley by a couple of spots. But based on their best 6 seasons, Barkley is easily above Malone I agree.
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Old 06-30-2012, 01:12 PM   #23
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

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Originally Posted by OldSchoolBBall
Well, you clearly rank guys based on level of play, which to me is only one criteria (though I do place more importance on that criteria than most do). I rank guys based on overall resume and level of play, so Malone's two MVP's and longevity put him above Barkley by a couple of spots. But based on their best 6 seasons, Barkley is easily above Malone I agree.

Yeah, level of play is what's important to me, resume is too dependent on circumstances out of a player's control as far as I'm concerned. And I also like ranking players based almost entirely on what I see on the court. I do value championships which is the one accomplishment I consider because it's what you play the game for, but particularly how well a player plays to get the ring. For example runs, like 1st 3peat Jordan, '00 and '01 Shaq, '80 Kareem, '94 and '95 Hakeem are more impressive to me than just winning a ring.

MVPs in particular are a subjective award so I don't factor them in. I disagree with both of the years Malone was voted with MVP actually. I'd go with Jordan in '97, and probably Duncan in '99, though I have less of a problem with the '99 one because of what a strange year it is, and also don't care that much about awards in a 50 game season. But a reason why a player merely being voted MVP doesn't mean anything to me is since '97-present for example, I disagree with at least 5 of the 16 selections, and since '90, I disagree with at least 7 of the 23 selections.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:49 PM   #24
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Default Re: Charles Barkley drops 44/24 in Game 7 of the '93 WCF

he probably felt bad about his disgusting showing the game earlier

13 points, 4-14
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