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Old 07-29-2012, 04:22 PM   #91
Legend of Josh
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
When i was a teacher one of the girls had real gender issues. She was basically an outcast. Treated like utter and total shit, and even those who weren't mean, stayed away as to not be in the line of fire.

OP wants to say that she chose to be how she was. She didn't choose that any more than she chose being short, or being asian, or being born to her parents. TO me, if this was all a choice, none of the behaviors would show up as early as they do.

Yeah, b/c race and sexual orientation are one in the same.

... ...

I can at least say LD and even Nanners along with a few others have presented some points that do get the wheels turning upstairs, forcing me to contemplate things in a different realm of thinking, but post after post from you I'm left sharply (and unsurprisingly) disappointed, and I don't think you're an idiot.

I just see you wanting to get your point(s) across in an intelligent and factual manner, but I simply find it ignorant (pay close attention, I'm not saying you, I'm saying your mindset and logic) to make some comparison along the lines of:

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.
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Old 07-29-2012, 04:37 PM   #92
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
Yeah, b/c race and sexual orientation are one in the same.

... ...

I can at least say LD and even Nanners along with a few others have presented some points that do get the wheels turning upstairs, forcing me to contemplate things in a different realm of thinking, but post after post from you I'm left sharply (and unsurprisingly) disappointed, and I don't think you're an idiot.

I just see you wanting to get your point(s) across in an intelligent and factual manner, but I simply find it ignorant (pay close attention, I'm not saying you, I'm saying your mindset and logic) to make some comparison along the lines of:

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.
u cant visualize sexuality the same way u do asian or eye color...theres plenty of evidence bout sexual orientation at birth or developed very early...reading ur posts u just dont want to hear it.
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Old 07-29-2012, 04:45 PM   #93
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
Yeah, b/c race and sexual orientation are one in the same.

... ...

I can at least say LD and even Nanners along with a few others have presented some points that do get the wheels turning upstairs, forcing me to contemplate things in a different realm of thinking, but post after post from you I'm left sharply (and unsurprisingly) disappointed, and I don't think you're an idiot.

I just see you wanting to get your point(s) across in an intelligent and factual manner, but I simply find it ignorant (pay close attention, I'm not saying you, I'm saying your mindset and logic) to make some comparison along the lines of:

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.

You say it's a choice. Which means these kids (who are very young), as they are growing up and developing their sexuality HAVE CHOSEN TO BE GAY. Even though it's a terrible path that makes them terribly unhappy. Even though it gets them beaten, and ostracised, and they openly wish it to not be true. Pretend it's not true.

That makes no sense. I get it's not part of your worldview, but how is this a choice?
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Old 07-29-2012, 04:54 PM   #94
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

just like every single other one of LOJs arguments in this thread, genetic vs environmental does not matter. whether or not someone chose to be gay or became gay because of their environment, doesnt not dictate whether they deserve fewer rights.


lets have a quick recap of the arguments LOJ has presented against gay marriage in this thread:

first argument: homo marriage is bad because its hard to explain to 6 year olds.
-garbage argument because a lot of things are hard to explain to 6 year olds, especially sexuality.

second argument: homo marriage is "unnnatural" because "man + man =/= child".
-garbage argument because countless aspects of human society are "unnatural", and who are you to define what is "natural" in the first place?

third argument: homo marriage is a threat to humanity because it could lower reproductive rates when all the men stop having sex with women.
-absolutely absurd. first of all, it would be good if reproductive rates went down considering 1 in 5 people on this planet go hungry every day. secondly, its not like all the straight people are just going to suddenly go gay just because gay marriage becomes legal. if you want to go gay, I will knock up your woman for you.

fourth argument: homos making out in the supermarket is gross, and i dont want to have to be around gay people.
-okay so you finally admit you are a scared and selfish homophobe. wouldnt it have been easier to do this in the first place?

i challenge anybody to present a single valid argument against homo marriage. it cannot be done.

Last edited by Nanners : 07-29-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 07-29-2012, 04:58 PM   #95
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
just like every single other one of LOJs arguments in this thread, genetic vs environmental does not matter. whether or not someone chose to be gay or became gay because of their environment, doesnt not dictate whether they deserve fewer rights.


lets have a quick recap of the arguments LOJ has presented against gay marriage in this thread:

first argument: homo marriage is bad because its hard to explain to 6 year olds.
-garbage argument because a lot of things are hard to explain to 6 year olds, especially sexuality.

second argument: homo marriage is "unnnatural" because "man + man =/= child".
-garbage argument because countless aspects of human society are "unnatural", and who are you to define what is "natural" in the first place?

third argument: homo marriage is a threat to humanity because it could lower reproductive rates when all the men stop having sex with women.
-absolutely absurd. first of all, it would be good if reproductive rates went down considering 1 in 5 people on this planet go hungry every day. secondly, its not like all the straight people are just going to suddenly go gay just because gay marriage becomes legal. if you want to go gay, I will knock up your woman for you.

fourth argument: homos making out in the supermarket is gross, and i dont want to have to be around gay people.
-okay so you finally admit you are a scared and selfish homophobe. wouldnt it have been easier to do this in the first place?

i challenge anybody to present a single valid argument against homo marriage. it cannot be done.

You also don't need two parents to adopt a child. Babies are scarce (especially white babies) so if you have two parents, it's seen as more stable so it's easier. But a single parent can adopt. I've seen it.

By LOJ argument, it would seem you need to be a husband, a wife, and only then could you adopt. Single Parents get babies, are gay single parents not allowed or is it only gay couples?
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:20 PM   #96
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

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Originally Posted by Charlie Sheen
u cant visualize sexuality the same way u do asian or eye color...theres plenty of evidence bout sexual orientation at birth or developed very early...reading ur posts u just dont want to hear it.

What evidence, exactly? Really, serious question. If there were genuine evidence one is born gay, there wouldn't be such a heated debate going on in the country right now on the gay marriage issue. I'd actually love to hear... if there's factual evidence my stance is wrong then I'd have no other choice but to change my mind and come to the realization those who are gay, are born gay. If Obama and Biden openly support gay marriage, is that the proof?

Last edited by Legend of Josh : 07-29-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:24 PM   #97
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

using LOJ logic you can easily argue that we should make it illegal for people to become 800lbs and require a hoverround.

1. fat people are gross. you seen a fat person in the supermarket before? my mom always told me not to go shopping hungry, but it really doesnt matter since i lose my appetite when i see the other grocery shoppers

2. its a choice to be fat, its not like you are just born fat. if gay people can stop being gay, fat people can stop being fat. also like 1/3 of america is obese, so there are obviously way more fat people than there are gay people. i wont even talk about how the fatties make healthcare more expensive for everybody else.

if gay marriage should be illegal, so should obesity. you rule josh
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:26 PM   #98
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by niko
You say it's a choice. Which means these kids (who are very young), as they are growing up and developing their sexuality HAVE CHOSEN TO BE GAY. Even though it's a terrible path that makes them terribly unhappy. Even though it gets them beaten, and ostracised, and they openly wish it to not be true. Pretend it's not true.

That makes no sense. I get it's not part of your worldview, but how is this a choice?

You talk about the "young age kids" who feel at an early age they are attracted to the same sex... and that's a fair point. I'm not in their shoes, so I can't say I comprehend what's going on in their mind, or where they're coming from.

Also, what about the adults who said they once thought they were once "born gay" but later on in life came to the realization they were all along attracted to the opposite sex and not gay.

How is that scenario explained? It happens, all the time.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:26 PM   #99
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
What evidence, exactly? Really, serious question. If there were genuine evidence one is born gay, there wouldn't be such a heated debate going on in the country right now on the gay marriage issue. I'd actually love to hear... if there's factual evidence my stance is wrong then I'd have no other choice but to change my mind and come to the realization those who are gay, are born gay.
lotsa studies from people smarter than u and me establsihing the link yep...this isnt new science. start here http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:26 PM   #100
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
No, what you don't understand is that you claim homosexuals are 100% born that way, when you DO NOT know that entirely. How do you know no homosexual chooses to be gay?

There are countless videos on YouTube, articles on the internet where previously gay people claimed they were once "born gay" however now understand within themselves that they once MADE A PERSONAL CHOICE to be gay, but now they're MAKING THE CHOICE to be heterosexual and they claim they fully believe they were originally born heterosexual, and not born homosexual.

How do you refute their claims?



What you're doing saying it's FACT that homosexuals are born gay, PERIOD, is what comes across as something you obviously don't even remotely understand. It's your opinion they're born gay. It's my opinion there's an overwhelming factor (if not entirely) it's based on social environment.

Again, at this point it's all opinion ... so stop making yourself look like you're clueless about actual facts here versus opinion.

There is no scientific evidence to suggest at all that being homosexual is a choice. While there is strong evidence linking things like finger length to extreme feminine or masculine emotional responses. I've never once heard a straight male say "i chose to be straight!" or a homosexual claim that they just started liking boys randomly one day.

I have enough homosexual friends where nearly all of the ones i've ever asked this question always told me that it was just the way they've felt since kids can start developing feelings for each other. 25 years of my life and all the evidence i've ever seen points towards it being some kind of internal thing. And until i see anything to the contrary, besides a statement made by someone who isn't even a homosexual i'll continue to believe that.

If gay people really hated being gay and all that like Niko said, then why wouldn't they just become straight so they aren't hated on anymore by their peers. Like u said it is a choice right?
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:33 PM   #101
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Sheen
lotsa studies from people smarter than u and me establsihing the link yep...this isnt new science. start here http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:38 PM   #102
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

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Originally Posted by Hazard
I have a few gay friends, each one has at least one story where they got the shit beaten out of them and left to die on the ground for being gay, or their parents disowning them etc. It amazes me that people think its a choice to be gay and subjugate yourself to that sort of treatment.

Coming from a moral standpoint, would it be more acceptable to promote the type of thinking that being gay is wrong and have more violent outbursts against them or to accept them in society and give them all the rights that we ourselves enjoy? Its a question of full condemnation, which exists right now, or to live and let live.

This. It makes no sense in my head why a child would choose to be something that they know would get them beaten up, treated like an outcast, made fun of etc. Especially during a time in their lives when being "in" and with the "cool kids" is a huge part of a child's life in school and in social environments. Most kids just wanna be normal kids and treated like everyone else, so why would they purposely choose to be different from everyone else? I've never once heard any of my gay friends/ people i know say that they chose to have sexual preferences towards men. and every story i've heard from anyone else is almost the same exact thing
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:43 PM   #103
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

I don't think people realize how hurtful it is to tell gay people they cannot get married. You are basically telling people who grew up, saw their friends marry the people they love, that your relationship,it's not normal, or not important enough for marriage. The deep admittance to everyone that you are now one unit with this other person, you are not allowed to have that. Because non gay people don't want their word associated with gay people.

It's pretty f'd up when you think about it. People want rights taken away from some people simply because they don't want the word marriage used for people who have different sexual orientations.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:56 PM   #104
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend of Josh
Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.

LOJ you almost immediately contradict yourself within 3 paragraphs. Obviously (and correctly) you say 'you're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT!'

That's completely correct.

AND THEN you go on to say 'social environment (choice)' Uh, I don't know if you noticed, but when you grew up as a teenager, did you choose the neighbourhood you lived in, the teachers that taught you, the class you got put into, the social circle you got put into?

And ultimately, did you choose the people you fell for?

How on earth is social environment a choice? It simply boggles the mind that such an extraordinary leap of logic can be employed and nobody else picks it up.
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Old 07-29-2012, 11:42 PM   #105
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Default Re: "Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

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Originally Posted by Mach_3
What you don't understand is that NO homosexual ever "chooses" to be homosexual, they are just born that way. How can you condemn a part of our society just because they were born a certain way? What your doing almost literally sounds like bigotry
I think LOJ's point is that early family upbringing/experiences has more to do with if someone turns out gay or not.

There's no 'gene' that determines 100% whether you're gay or not.. it's not a disease. There's predispositions.. that certain life experiences can bring to reality.

Being raised in a 2 daddy household would probably be more than enough to bring that out. I can definitely see some problems with that coming up. People want to act like they're all open minded and rational and free thinkers who are on a different plane of intelligence and life perspective while they pump out their ideals on a message board but EVERYONE knows what people think in the real world.. I myself recognize the open mindset as making more sense than the OP's, but when you see it in real life, it just doesnt seem right by instinct.
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