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Old 08-01-2012, 02:53 PM   #151
LeBird
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by BlueandGold
No those are not subjective. Have you ever read this piece?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ly-to-win.html

Christ...in your own article:

Quote:
This is not to say that the best athletes are always the best looking, either. The correlations uncovered by Park and New Scientist explain only a small amount of the differences in athletic performance.

Good looks itself is subjective. If you are going to cite something to prove an outlandish claim like that, at least be a bit more scholarly.

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As far as cultural impact just look at the network ratings and audience of the NBA before Jordan and after. The international game didn't even exist during Magic and Bird's era.

Games were being shown delayed before Magic and Bird. Their NCAA finals is still the highest watched college basketball match in history IIRC. Without Magic and Bird bringing attention back on basketball Jordan doesn't get his legacy. Pure and simple. Still, it's irrelevant in assessing how well they did on the floor.

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Also, seeing how Jordan has essentially every award, record, accomplishment that those players that you've listed have (magic, bird, kareem) I don't see how you consider Jordan to be a "flawed individualist". Aren't all athletes "flawed individualists" then using your logic? To further debunk your logic Jordan was by far the most talented player on the 92 dream team and the one most deep in his prime yet he shot considerably less than everyone else and only averaged 6 points a game, allowing his dominant frontcourt of Barkley, Malone and Robinson to shine.

Other players have as much, or more than Jordan in terms of records. A lot of the times it's not even a simple comparison. Magic and Bird, for example, would have even more accolades had they not been competing against each other and more great sides of the 80s. If Jordan was in their era he not only doesn't win as many rings, he wouldn't win as many MVP titles.

No, a tournament which was treated as a side-show by Jordan is not proof that he wasn't a flawed individualist. He wasn't an ego-maniac; but he wasn't on the same level as Magic, Bird or Russell in terms of getting his teammates involved or making them play better. His teammates complained about how he played, he complained that they would shoot instead of pass to him, even though he took too many shots, and was more interested in stat-padding for a time.

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BTW what are you even arguing? That there's a case to be made against Jordan as Goat? And if so who do you have?

I am saying that Jordan may be the GOAT, but his claim is no stronger or special than the likes of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and possibly a few others.

Last edited by LeBird : 08-01-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:55 PM   #152
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
An instance in a career spanning 10 years where he passed the ball - abnormally a lot for him - does not translate into Jordan not being an individualist. The guy has the second most shots per game in NBA history. That record wasn't amassed on one playoff run or a season.

Jordan was nowhere near as team-orientated as Bird, Magic or Russell. Stop revising history to save face for Jordan.

Who cares FACT is, he and his team produced more titles (while being a lesser team player ) than most lead dogs throughout NBA history san Bill Russell
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:01 PM   #153
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird

I am saying that Jordan may be the GOAT, but his claim is no stronger or special than the likes of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and possibly a few others.

Russell and Kareem? Sure But Magic and Bird? MJ's case is definitely better.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:02 PM   #154
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
I am saying that Jordan may be the GOAT, but his claim is no stronger or special than the likes of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and possibly a few others.

Only Kareem, jordan and magic have the argument for being the GOAT. IMO
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:02 PM   #155
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by scandisk_
Who cares FACT is, he and his team produced more titles (while being a lesser team player ) than most lead dogs throughout NBA history san Bill Russell

Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Tom Sanders, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Robert Horry and Frank Ramsey all have more than him. Bob Cousy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Scottie Pippen have as many as him and a tonne have 5.

So, if titles won decided who the best were then Jordan would be, at best, 10th.

But we both know it doesn't work like that. The era you play in, the teammates you have and the opposition you play determine heavily the success you are going to have. So whether that is a 'fact' is irrelevant, it doesn't justify claiming he is 'by far the GOAT'.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:04 PM   #156
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by riseagainst
Only Kareem, jordan and magic have the argument for being the GOAT. IMO

Magic and Bird are basically neck and neck so I don't see how you've made the split, but that's your opinion I guess. There's little separating those 3 and Wilt, Bird and Russell, for example, so I don't think you can rationally make that argument without getting pretty subjective.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:07 PM   #157
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
Magic and Bird are basically neck and neck so I don't see how you've made the split, but that's your opinion I guess. There's little separating those 3 and Wilt, Bird and Russell, for example, so I don't think you can rationally make that argument without getting pretty subjective.

you are right. Ranking people can be extremely subjective. But I think we can AT LEAST categorize several people into tiers. Like first tier, second tier, etc.

IMO:

not in order of ranking:

first tier: Jordan, Magic, Kareem
second tier: wilt, russell, bird, etc
etc
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:08 PM   #158
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Tom Sanders, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Robert Horry and Frank Ramsey all have more than him. Bob Cousy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Scottie Pippen have as many as him and a tonne have 5.

So, if titles won decided who the best were then Jordan would be, at best, 10th.

But we both know it doesn't work like that. The era you play in, the teammates you have and the opposition you play determine heavily the success you are going to have. So whether that is a 'fact' is irrelevant, it doesn't justify claiming he is 'by far the GOAT'.

Where did I say that titles fully determine the GOAT status? I was responding to your "INDIVIDUALIST COMMENT" bruh
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:10 PM   #159
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by riseagainst
you are right. Ranking people can be extremely subjective. But I think we can AT LEAST categorize several people into tiers. Like first tier, second tier, etc.

IMO:

not in order of ranking:

first tier: Jordan, Magic, Kareem
second tier: wilt, russell, bird, etc
etc

I happen to put Jordan, Wilt, and Magic in the first tier. Greatest scorer, greatest rebounder, and greatest passer. The 3 most important aspects of basketball.

Next is Russell, then Kareem. Greatest defender, and most longevity.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:10 PM   #160
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
I am saying that Jordan may be the GOAT, but his claim is no stronger or special than the likes of Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and possibly a few others.

So if u had to pick one who would you pick? Who is the reasonable, objective choice considering all of the facts?

BTW I posted that article to illustrate a point, not go into a paragraph long banter about how subjective good looks are. Sure there are discrepancies between let's say what I perceive as a "10" or an "8" but there's an obvious difference between an "8" and a "2". It's only subjective to the point of our cultural tastes.

And as far as this trivial point is concerned I'll say one more thing: "You only posted like 2 sentences from that article", the article begins by admitting that yes there is a BIT of subjectiveness to attractiveness but they in their studies tried to quantify it as best as they could using anatomical/symmetrical structures such as a hairline or a crooked nose and also by asking thousands of female participants in who they perceived as attractive. (participants who knew nothing of those individuals on the field achievements).

So as I admit i brought up that rather tangential point about charisma lets continue this discussion focused strictly on basketball:

Jordan has the most championships out of the three you mentioned (Bird/Magic/Kareem) while also being tied with the most MVPs and having fielded the best all-time team out of the three (92 Bulls) that also happens to be the winning-est team in the history of the league and one of the greatest assembled teams all time. He not only has more offensive achievements such as scoring titles, overall numbers, playoff scoring records, finals scoring records BUT also has greater defensive skills and tangible accomplishments such as DPOY (only scoring champion to win one) as well as all-NBA first defensive teams. Magic was essentially a liability on defense (look it up) and Bird was later on in his shortened career because of his back.

On top of all those factors he also had the greatest level or burden of all his 6 championship teams, winning FMVP in every one of them (Magic and Kareem alternated, Bird only won half as many titles/FMVPs as Jordan) as well the degree of difficulty being at epic proportions with him leading his team to titles as a shooting guard. Up until his first title in 92 no one has ever seen a SG ever carry his team that far into the playoffs, much less win a championship.

Last edited by BlueandGold : 08-01-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:13 PM   #161
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
I happen to put Jordan, Wilt, and Magic in the first tier. Greatest scorer, greatest rebounder, and greatest passer. The 3 most important aspects of basketball.

MJ, KAJ and Bill Russell or even Wilt happens to be on the first-tier class for me. Accolades, Records, Intangibles, Rings, etc. You name it these guys have pleeeenty

2nd tier would probably be Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, TimmyD and Hakeem
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:14 PM   #162
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by riseagainst
you are right. Ranking people can be extremely subjective. But I think we can AT LEAST categorize several people into tiers. Like first tier, second tier, etc.

IMO:

not in order of ranking:

first tier: Jordan, Magic, Kareem
second tier: wilt, russell, bird, etc
etc

I think even establishing tiers is very subjective. As I said, what distinguishes your first tier from the second tier? All 6 of them have a case as GOAT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandisk_
Where did I say that titles fully determine the GOAT status? I was responding to your "INDIVIDUALIST COMMENT" bruh

And how did that disprove my comment? He won titles? Big whoop. Until he got Pippen and Grant - later, others - Jordan couldn't get a winning (.500) season even despite the fact that he had Superhuman stats. His teammates moulded their play to suit Jordan's individualistic game and that is why they won. Again, why the revisionism? Jordan was not a complete player, that doesn't disqualify him from being GOAT.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:19 PM   #163
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
I think even establishing tiers is very subjective. As I said, what distinguishes your first tier from the second tier? All 6 of them have a case as GOAT.



And how did that disprove my comment? He won titles? Big whoop. Until he got Pippen and Grant - later, others - Jordan couldn't get a winning (.500) season even despite the fact that he had Superhuman stats. His teammates moulded their play to suit Jordan's individualistic game and that is why they won. Again, why the revisionism? Jordan was not a complete player, that doesn't disqualify him from being GOAT.


And this helps your case how? Do the same to Bird and Magic or even anyone on league history and see what happens And a BIG LOL on the bolded part, myyy I'm off to bed not wasting my time on you. Nyt nyt
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:22 PM   #164
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by BlueandGold
So if u had to pick one who would you pick? Who is the reasonable, objective choice considering all of the facts?

There is no one single choice that is undeniable on the facts. That's the point. It can be Jordan, it can be Bird, it can be Magic, it could be a few others. My point is that there is no choice that can be deemed unanimous as if he is far and away the best.

Quote:
BTW I posted that article to illustrate a point, not go into a paragraph long banter about how subjective good looks are. Sure there are discrepancies between let's say what I perceive as a "10" or an "8" but there's an obvious difference between an "8" and a "2". It's only subjective to the point of our cultural tastes.

It doesn't really matter. It states itself that the results aren't reliable. It's more an interesting observation than a definitive study. In terms of using that as an arguing point it's a pretty crappy point.

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Jordan has the most championships out of the three you mentioned (Bird/Magic/Kareem) while also being tied with the most MVPs and having fielded the best all-time team out of the three (92 Bulls) that also happens to be the winning-est team in the history of the league and one of the greatest assembled teams all time. He not only has more offensive achievements such as scoring titles, overall numbers, playoff scoring records, finals scoring records BUT also has greater defensive skills and tangible accomplishments such as DPOY (only scoring champion to win one) as well as all-NBA first defensive teams. Magic was essentially a liability on defense (look it up) and Bird was later on in his shortened career because of his back.

Jordan won when those two either were past their best because of injury or got sick and had to leave. Jordan was routinely whipped by Bird in matches against each other. I'm trying to get you to understand that Jordan's Bulls would, in all likelihood, never have won 6 titles in the 80s. His team would have never posted a 72 win season in the 80s (even Rodman said this).

Jordan has plenty of good points and attributes but it doesn't make him by far the GOAT. It simply makes him one of many good candidates.

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On top of all those factors he also had the greatest level or burden of all his 6 championship teams, winning FMVP in every one of them (Magic and Kareem alternated, Bird only won half as many titles/FMVPs as Jordan) as well the degree of difficulty being at epic proportions with him leading his team to titles as a shooting guard. Up until his first title in 92 no one has ever seen a SG ever carry his team that far into the playoffs, much less win a championship.

Subjective. Jordan had a team built around him and specifically for his weaknesses. He won in an era of a watered down league. Remember, Jordan didn't have the competition Bird and Magic faced. To compare titles won or things of that nature is disingenuous.

What you've said thus far is a good argument for why he may be by far the best SG...but not the by far the best overall. That argument can't be made for any NBA player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandisk_
And this helps your case how? Do the same to Bird and Magic or even anyone on league history and see what happens And a BIG LOL on the bolded part, myyy I'm off to bed not wasting my time on you. Nyt nyt

I am not sure what your point is or if I should take you seriously. What it means is that you can't say Jordan wasn't an individualistic player. He needed his teammates to pull the slack where he was unwilling. For many, that's not a good thing.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:26 PM   #165
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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______

So what does your top 10 (in order) look like?
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