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Old 08-01-2012, 03:36 PM   #166
LeBird
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by riseagainst
So what does your top 10 (in order) look like?

I honestly refrain from listing because I feel I am not being genuine because when I do list then it is with the caveat that "I am not sure". After about 6-7 it starts getting tough for me.

But since you've asked, I'll list them but not in order:

Wilt
Russell
Bird
Jordan
Magic
Olajuwon
Kareem
Duncan
Robertson
Shaq

And, in a couple years I think Lebron will crack it. Talent/Ability wise he is already in the top handful IMO, but he'll need the consistency of success and a longer career before I let him in.

My favourite player, though, is Bird. I still routinely watch him play in older matches on Youtube. IMO no one could touch him in terms of basketball IQ. His body let him down otherwise I think if there were to be a clear GOAT it would have been him.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:37 PM   #167
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Real simple. The question asks is MJ the unanimous G.O.A.T. on ISH?

u·nan·i·mous
Adjective:

(of two or more people) Fully in agreement.
(of an opinion, decision, or vote) Held or carried by everyone involved.


If 99.9999% of ISH considers MJ the GOAT but .0001% doesn't then it's not unanimous. The answer is, No.

Last edited by jlip : 08-01-2012 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 03:57 PM   #168
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
An instance in a career spanning 10 years where he passed the ball - abnormally a lot for him - does not translate into Jordan not being an individualist. The guy has the second most shots per game in NBA history. That record wasn't amassed on one playoff run or a season.

Jordan was nowhere near as team-orientated as Bird, Magic or Russell. Stop revising history to save face for Jordan.
Jordan was a team player. You gotta unserstand his role on the Bulls was to score, finiish games and obviously defend.

At the least, Jordan was a better team player than Bird or Magic as defenders. Bird was so bad they had to put Mchale on the best scoring forward. And look no further than what Paxson did to Magic during the 91 finals if you wanna see how bad he was as a defender.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:01 PM   #169
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Jordan was a team player. You gotta unserstand his role on the Bulls was to score, finiish games and obviously defend.

Jordan's role was the same regardless of who he played with, and his teammates had to adjust to the above outline of Jordan's game...which was basically just doing his natural game.

I'll put it this way: two Magics or two Birds and that team would thrive. Two Jordans and they'd be getting in each other's way.

Quote:
At the least, Jordan was a better team player than Bird or Magic as defenders. Bird was so bad they had to put Mchale on the best scoring forward. And look no further than what Paxson did to Magic during the 91 finals if you wanna see how bad he was as a defender.

I'd argue that Bird was actually a better team/zone defender than Jordan who was better in terms of matching up to a player. Bird was actually a very good defender for most of his career while he was physically able, Magic was merely an OK defender overall.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:10 PM   #170
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
Jordan's role was the same regardless of who he played with, and his teammates had to adjust to the above outline of Jordan's game...which was basically just doing his natural game.

I'll put it this way: two Magics or two Birds and that team would thrive. Two Jordans and they'd be getting in each other's way.



I'd argue that Bird was actually a better team/zone defender than Jordan who was better in terms of matching up to a player. Bird was actually a very good defender for most of his career while he was physically able, Magic was merely an OK defender overall.
Id love to see your argument. Ive already pointed clear deficiencies in Magic and Birds game. And understand, Bird wasnt a great help defender. He had great instincts and thus made him great at gambler. The same holds true for Magic.


I question how well eiither of them would do in a different situation. How are thhey supposed to play defense? They were disguised greatly on offense.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:16 PM   #171
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Russell is Goat
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:19 PM   #172
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Watch him play, that's my argument. Bird was better at reading the play and being at the right place or on the right man to stop a dangerous play. Ironically, I'd say the biggest gambler was Jordan, who many times stopped making the right defensive decision simply so he could rack up a steal. It was silly and often led to the opposition getting easy points but it helped him rack up the stats.

It was a hypothetical and by its nature conjecture. But let's call a duck a duck: Jordan cared for #1 (himself) and wouldn't want to share the glory even if he had a teammate that was capable. He had to take more shots than the others. He had arguments with coaches and teammates through the years because of it. Bird and Magic were the opposite; everyone loved playing with them. Bird could have been as prolific as he wanted to be, but saw the necessity in getting teammates involved and making high percentage plays.

That Bird, or Magic, were more team-orientated than Jordan isn't really a debate or controversial... let's get real.

The original point was that every player had their deficiency - especially Jordan. For someone who defends and argues for Pippen so much (I've been reading this forum for a while) you should be the last person arguing against this.

Last edited by LeBird : 08-01-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:25 PM   #173
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Watch him play, that's my argument. Bird was better at reading the play and being at the right place or on the right man to stop a dangerous play. Ironically, I'd say the biggest gambler was Jordan, who many times stopped making the right defensive decision simply so he could rack up a steal. It was silly and often led to the opposition getting easy points but it helped him rack up the stats.

It was a hypothetical and by its nature conjecture. But let's call a duck a duck: Jordan cared for #1 (himself) and wouldn't want to share the glory even if he had a teammate that was capable. He had to take more shots than the others. He had arguments with coaches and teammates through the years because of it. Bird and Magic were the opposite; everyone loved playing with them. Bird could have been as prolific as he wanted to be, but saw the necessity in getting teammates involved and making high percentage plays.

That Bird, or Magic, were more team-orientated than Jordan isn't really a debate, let's get real.
bull crap, he always praised Pippen and went as far as calling the Bulls Pippen's team after he came back from his first hiatus.

I don't know what kind of coach you'd be but I want the ball in my best player's hands to close out a game, and don't pretend MJ never passed the ball at the end of games, those to Kerr, Paxson and Armstrong come to mind.

Last edited by TheMan : 08-01-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:30 PM   #174
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

MJ isn't the unanimous G.O.A.T. but a clear majority think he is...you aren't ever gonna have a uninimous G.O.A.T. player for any sport, but you can have a consensus G.O.A.T. player.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:35 PM   #175
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by TheMan
bull crap, he always praised Pippen and went as far as calling the Bulls Pippen's team after he came back from his first hiatus.

I don't know what kind of coach you'd be but I want the ball in my best player's hands to close out a game, and don't pretend MJ never passed the ball at the end of games, those to Kerr, Paxson and Armstrong come to mind.

Actually, in the beginning he didn't, only later on did he. And you've missed my point: I am saying that Jordan wouldn't allow someone else in the team to take over the scoring - even if it wasn't a clutch moment - and instead be the playmaker.

Whereas with someone like Bird, if it meant being the playmaker he'd do that. If there was no one else, he'd shoulder the scoring load. If they lacked size, he'd dominate the boards. He did what he did to adjust to his teammates traits. The opposite happened with Chicago. And Pippen was the one who had to adjust so Jordan's game could thrive. He was the one who did the dog work.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:40 PM   #176
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Watch him play, that's my argument. Bird was better at reading the play and being at the right place or on the right man to stop a dangerous play. Ironically, I'd say the biggest gambler was Jordan, who many times stopped making the right defensive decision simply so he could rack up a steal. It was silly and often led to the opposition getting easy points but it helped him rack up the stats.

It was a hypothetical and by its nature conjecture. But let's call a duck a duck: Jordan cared for #1 (himself) and wouldn't want to share the glory even if he had a teammate that was capable. He had to take more shots than the others. He had arguments with coaches and teammates through the years because of it. Bird and Magic were the opposite; everyone loved playing with them. Bird could have been as prolific as he wanted to be, but saw the necessity in getting teammates involved and making high percentage plays.

That Bird, or Magic, were more team-orientated than Jordan isn't really a debate or controversial... let's get real.

The original point was that every player had their deficiency - especially Jordan. For someone who defends and argues for Pippen so much (I've been reading this forum for a while) you should be the last person arguing against this.
Im not gonna argue that the two wee better team players than Jordan. But I do take exception to saying Jordans wasnt a team player. Sure in the beginning one could say he was a ballhog but he was a one man show. Once he got sufficient help, he became a very good team player.


I dont see what my stance on Pippen has to do with this. Both Jordan and Pippen complimented each other extremely well. Neithers role was a result of a deficiency so much as it was just a role. Both Magic and Bird had holes in their game. Like I stated stated before, both were great at anticipating passes but thats not help defense. Id be uneasy about expecting either of them to be able to double down on another man and still be able to not allow their man to go off. Like i stated, go back and look at that 91 finals. The reason that Bird was able to anticipate was becase he assumed the jobe of the lesser scorind forward from the opposition. He then would roam more because his man wasnt really an offensive threat.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:45 PM   #177
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
bull crap, he always praised Pippen and went as far as calling the Bulls Pippen's team after he came back from his first hiatus.

I don't know what kind of coach you'd be but I want the ball in my best player's hands to close out a game, and don't pretend MJ never passed the ball at the end of games, those to Kerr, Paxson and Armstrong come to mind.
Exactly. Jordan led the charge for Pippen to be MVP in 96 before he (Pippen) hurt his ankle. And Jordan was in the hunt for that honor as well. How is that selfish? Jordan has acknowledged that Pippen sacrificed alot for the success of the team. He was a great team player.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:45 PM   #178
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by Nevaeh
Dude, shut up. Magic's punk ass was afraid to even attempt leading a team of scrubs anywhere, Mr. "I'm not coming to the League, unless I get to play with Kareem, wah!!". Even Kobe had more balls than that "Grinning, Baffoon Stereotype, Step and Fetch" talking moron, who didn't even have decency enough to look his teammates in the eye when he passed them the ball.

You know Nev's serious when he's sticking up for Kobe ... sort off.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold
Yes, and not just because of his impeccable resume but because he took the NBA brand to another level. Magic and Bird may have saved the league but Jordan made the league what it is today. To be able to do that and win as much as he did is nothing short of miraculous. Let's also not forget what type of precedents that Jordan set by three-peating twice (something Magic/Kareem/Bird/etc could even do once) and also by winning consecutive FMVP/championships as a scoring leader and by willing his team to victory as a freaking shooting guard.

That has rarely been duplicated since and when it has (kobe00-02, Wade06) the SGs had extremely dominant centers to back them up. Jordan had cartwright and longely .

Love when all the basketball purists bring up how big men impact the game on so many more levels than guards yet refuse to point out the greater degree of difficulty that guards face when leading their teams to championships as compared to big men. Even freaking Dwight Howard could lead his team to a finals berth.

Well said.

Probably the best post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHeezy
Michael Jordan is the popular OPINION, but not the correct answer.

The answer is team sports is subjective, there is no right answer.

I agree and disagree here.

I think even Jordan said there is no "GOAT", because he didn't go up against everybody all-time (Oscar, West, Wilt, Russell, etc...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da KO King
Michael Jordan being labeled GOAT is mostly due to Nike and Gatorade marketing. No player prior was marketed like Michael was. No player since Michael has been so vehemently defended from flaws in their game to off-court behavior as he was.



You have to ask yourself what made those brands more popular than they were... and it wasn't because of marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Kareem is not greater than Jordan. Nor has he had tthe same impact on the league. Kareem shouldve dominateed the NBA in the 70s. Hell half of the great players were playing in the ABA. Why couldnt he win more? And how many players including Bigs imitate Jordans fadeaway as opposed to the skyhook? Kareem has no case over Jordan

He absoultely dominated the 70's, come on man.

5 MVP's in a decade backed up with great production, isn't dominating ?

And the fact big men don't imitate the skyhook is because it's an extremely hard shot to pull of consistently.. it's become a lost art, really.

And completely disagree with Kareem not having a case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAstill
Jordan skill>>>Kareem.

Completely disagree with this logic, unless your just talking about skill... which can be vague when comparing.

Even if Jordan's more skilled, the impact isn't that different from either one of them. Hakeem is arguably the most skilled big man to ever play, does he bring more impact/better than Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, etc ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
MJ is by virtue of a lot of attention routinely seen as the unanimous GOAT.

But, he isn't - or rather, shouldn't be. He's definitely a candidate, but the way people speak about him - as if he is far and away above the others - is so wrong you wonder about the logical rationale people are cherry-picking to keep him that high.

Whenever people argue that Jordan is far and away the best...that's a red flag that the person in question doesn't know squat about basketball.

I really need to know the case why Jordan isn't GOAT or shouldn't be rather than hearing about "people" speaking about him.

And what's there to cherry-pick, exactly ? Just curious.

I don't mind people having the idea (even though I don't agree with that notion) of Jordan way ahead of most, but check out BlueandGold's post from before... What Jordan did as SG and just a guard as general might never be repeated again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold
Jordan is the ultimate package, Kareem, Magic, Bird all have missing blanks in their resume, Russell too because of the decade he played under.

If your talking about all-time resume, legacy, cultural impact, charisma, charm and being bigger than your sport than there's no other equal compared to Jordan.

What exactly are Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Russell missing ? Just curious.

I don't buy the decade/era thing, that's not in Russell's control. He had to play in that decade under much harsh conditions than the above 3 player mentioned (Kareem with the only one who might have matched play under harsh conditions too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Im not gonna argue that the two wee better team players than Jordan. But I do take exception to saying Jordans wasnt a team player. Sure in the beginning one could say he was a ballhog but he was a one man show. Once he got sufficient help, he became a very good team player.

I agree with this.

He's not a better team player/passer than Magic and Bird were (systematically, that's why they really excelled), but Jordan very much became a very good leader and vocal one too.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:48 PM   #179
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

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Originally Posted by LeBird
Actually, in the beginning he didn't, only later on did he. And you've missed my point: I am saying that Jordan wouldn't allow someone else in the team to take over the scoring - even if it wasn't a clutch moment - and instead be the playmaker.

Whereas with someone like Bird, if it meant being the playmaker he'd do that. If there was no one else, he'd shoulder the scoring load. If they lacked size, he'd dominate the boards. He did what he did to adjust to his teammates traits. The opposite happened with Chicago. And Pippen was the one who had to adjust so Jordan's game could thrive. He was the one who did the dog work.
Um, if you are the opposing team's coach, wouldn't you want anyone else to take over the scoring instead of the greatest scoring player ever? Me, I want the best player taking those shots. MJ rarely chucked, always took good shots and was the one who would bail out the Bulls with the shot clock running out if a good shot wasn't available earlier. I'm thinking you never watched MJ because you seem to not know much about his game. He rarely took bad shots, that's why he always had a good FG% for a perimeter player that was asked to carry the load offensively. MJ wasn't a selfish player, he had a bad group of players in his first years, Magic and Bird had HOF teammates early in their careers, MJ needed to domiante the ball for the Bulls to be successful early on, he was asked to alter his game with the triangle offense and did so for the team's success. I know you think MJ is a selfish player but that selfish player got more titles than Bird or Magic, the ultimate team players

Last edited by TheMan : 08-01-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:50 PM   #180
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Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Im not gonna argue that the two wee better team players than Jordan. But I do take exception to saying Jordans wasnt a team player. Sure in the beginning one could say he was a ballhog but he was a one man show. Once he got sufficient help, he became a very good team player.


I dont see what my stance on Pippen has to do with this. Both Jordan and Pippen complimented each other extremely well. Neithers role was a result of a deficiency so much as it was just a role. Both Magic and Bird had holes in their game. Like I stated stated before, both were great at anticipating passes but thats not help defense. Id be uneasy about expecting either of them to be able to double down on another man and still be able to not allow their man to go off. Like i stated, go back and look at that 91 finals. The reason that Bird was able to anticipate was becase he assumed the jobe of the lesser scorind forward from the opposition. He then would roam more because his man wasnt really an offensive threat.

Pippen himself said, and did have, his best year without Jordan. He may have won a ring on his own - probably could have but for that call. While they complimented each other, it was Pippen who had to do the dog work and only came into his own once Jordan left. He may have had a better legacy, individually, if it were not for having to be Jordan's bridesmaid. Jordan simply wasn't much of a team player when you compare him to the likes of the aforementioned. Again, the guy averages IIRC the 2nd most shots per game in all of the NBA. Let's call it a duck and get it over with.

You're understating Bird's defensive prowess (especially early on in his career) but I'll leave that because I doubt we'll ever get on common ground. And of course Bird and Magic had their deficiencies. That's kind of the point with me pointing out Jordan's lack of team-play or ability to help his team in the myriad of ways the aforementioned could. We have to stop pretending Jordan was perfect (as that was the point of the poster I was replying to).
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