Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-01-2012, 04:51 PM   #181
97 bulls
NBA Superstar
 
97 bulls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,903
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
MJ isn't the unanimous G.O.A.T. but a clear majority think he is...you aren't ever gonna have a uninimous G.O.A.T. player for any sport, but you can have a consensus G.O.A.T. player.
Its a play on words. Jordan iis defiinately the consensus GOAT on ISH as well as everywhhere else.
97 bulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 04:58 PM   #182
LeBird
Local High School Star
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
Um, if you are the opposing team's coach, wouldn't you want anyone else to take over the scoring instead of the greatest scoring player ever? Me, I want the best player taking those shots. MJ rarely chucked, always took good shots and was the one who would bail out the Bulls with the shot clock running out if a good shot wasn't available earlier. I'm thinking you never watched MJ because you seem to not know much about his game. He rarely took bad shots, that's why he always had a good FG% for a perimeter player that was asked to carry the load offensively. MJ wasn't a selfish player, he had a bad group of players in his first years, Magic and Bird had HOFers in their early years, MJ needed to domiante the ball for the Bulls to be successful early on, he was asked to alter his game with the triangle offense and did so for the team's success. I know you think MJ is a selfish player but that selfish player got more titles than Bird or Magic, the ultimate team players

No, you don't. Wilt learned that, Jordan learned that and so did Shaq in recent history. Simply being the league's leading scorer is not enough. One has to get your teammates in the game. If you are being double-teamed, forget the tough shot and give to the open man. Jordan, a lot of the time, passed the ball off when trapped and couldn't score, rather than the other way round.

He got away with it in the 90s where the teams really weren't as competitive as the 80s. He wouldn't have been as successful in their era and wouldn't have that many titles.

Bird inherited a horrible team in his rookie year and took them to the best regular season record, he did it without dominating the scoring like Jordan. Jordan dominated the scoring - ridiculously so - and couldn't get his team above .500 for the first phase of his career. A team scoring a lot is conducive to winning - an individual doing so is less likely.
LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:00 PM   #183
TheMan
Repping mis Mexicanas!
 
TheMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: amongst wackos
Posts: 10,413
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?



Well, the selfish guy ended up with more titles than the team first guys...haters gonna hate.
TheMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #184
97 bulls
NBA Superstar
 
97 bulls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,903
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7
You know Nev's serious when he's sticking up for Kobe ... sort off.





Well said.

Probably the best post in this thread.



I agree and disagree here.

I think even Jordan said there is no "GOAT", because he didn't go up against everybody all-time (Oscar, West, Wilt, Russell, etc...).





You have to ask yourself what made those brands more popular than they were... and it wasn't because of marketing.



He absoultely dominated the 70's, come on man.

5 MVP's in a decade backed up with great production, isn't dominating ?

And the fact big men don't imitate the skyhook is because it's an extremely hard shot to pull of consistently.. it's become a lost art, really.

And completely disagree with Kareem not having a case.



Completely disagree with this logic, unless your just talking about skill... which can be vague when comparing.

Even if Jordan's more skilled, the impact isn't that different from either one of them. Hakeem is arguably the most skilled big man to ever play, does he bring more impact/better than Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, etc ?



I really need to know the case why Jordan isn't GOAT or shouldn't be rather than hearing about "people" speaking about him.

And what's there to cherry-pick, exactly ? Just curious.

I don't mind people having the idea (even though I don't agree with that notion) of Jordan way ahead of most, but check out BlueandGold's post from before... What Jordan did as SG and just a guard as general might never be repeated again.



What exactly are Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Russell missing ? Just curious.

I don't buy the decade/era thing, that's not in Russell's control. He had to play in that decade under much harsh conditions than the above 3 player mentioned (Kareem with the only one who might have matched play under harsh conditions too).



I agree with this.

He's not a better team player/passer than Magic and Bird were (systematically, that's why they really excelled), but Jordan very much became a very good leader and vocal one too.
I was referring to winning. Its why Kareem iisnt the clear cut greatest ever. The personal achievmentss are there. But most of his championships came as a shell of his fprmer shelf. Especially when you consider that the ABA spil virtually half of the talent with the NBA.
97 bulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:02 PM   #185
waseem780
#1 Joel Embiid Stan
 
waseem780's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,304
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueandGold
Yes, and not just because of his impeccable resume but because he took the NBA brand to another level. Magic and Bird may have saved the league but Jordan made the league what it is today. To be able to do that and win as much as he did is nothing short of miraculous. Let's also not forget what type of precedents that Jordan set by three-peating twice (something Magic/Kareem/Bird/etc could even do once) and also by winning consecutive FMVP/championships as a scoring leader and by willing his team to victory as a freaking shooting guard.

That has rarely been duplicated since and when it has (kobe00-02, Wade06) the SGs had extremely dominant centers to back them up. Jordan had cartwright and longely .

Love when all the basketball purists bring up how big men impact the game on so many more levels than guards yet refuse to point out the greater degree of difficulty that guards face when leading their teams to championships as compared to big men. Even freaking Dwight Howard could lead his team to a finals berth.

AKA Shaq both times..
waseem780 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:05 PM   #186
Da_Realist
NBA lottery pick
 
Da_Realist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,434
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Whereas with someone like Bird, if it meant being the playmaker he'd do that. If there was no one else, he'd shoulder the scoring load. If they lacked size, he'd dominate the boards. He did what he did to adjust to his teammates traits. The opposite happened with Chicago. And Pippen was the one who had to adjust so Jordan's game could thrive. He was the one who did the dog work.

I don't see how Jordan didn't do the dog work. He did pretty much all he could do. In fact, he probably did a little too much early on but he always gave maximum effort on both ends of the floor. He got rebounds when they were needed, defended guys that were lighting up the team, etc. You aren't wrong about Pippen, but you're selling Jordan short. He was just as much a utility player as Bird was.

Jordan did gamble on defense early on his career but that's because the Bulls weren't a great defensive team. He was their best defender on the floor and just happened to be a perimeter player. Until Pippen, every other position on the floor was a disadvantage defensively. Brad Sellers, John Paxson and Dave Corzine with Charles Oakley as the major interior defender. Oakley was like 6'9". Bird had Parish/McHale down low with him (McHale was always considered a great defender) with DJ locking up the best perimeter threats. Bird could afford to play defense without much gambling.

And Pippen (and others) also fed off of Jordan. His off the ball movement allowed the triangle to work even though he took most of the shots. Jordan was just as dangerous dominating the ball as he was in the triangle. Pippen's maturity helped the Bulls get better, not Jordan. He thrived more with Jordan than he did with Hakeem/Barkley so it's not like his style would work under any circumstances.
Da_Realist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:05 PM   #187
LeBird
Local High School Star
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
Well, the selfish guy ended up with more titles than the team first guys...haters gonna hate.

That's because the team first guys were taking rings off each other whereas the selfish guy won in a diluted league.

As for another team first guy...

LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:07 PM   #188
97 bulls
NBA Superstar
 
97 bulls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,903
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
No, you don't. Wilt learned that, Jordan learned that and so did Shaq in recent history. Simply being the league's leading scorer is not enough. One has to get your teammates in the game. If you are being double-teamed, forget the tough shot and give to the open man. Jordan, a lot of the time, passed the ball off when trapped and couldn't score, rather than the other way round.

He got away with it in the 90s where the teams really weren't as competitive as the 80s. He wouldn't have been as successful in their era and wouldn't have that many titles.

Bird inherited a horrible team in his rookie year and took them to the best regular season record, he did it without dominating the scoring like Jordan. Jordan dominated the scoring - ridiculously so - and couldn't get his team above .500 for the first phase of his career. A team scoring a lot is conducive to winning - an individual doing so is less likely.
Again, i couldnt disagree more. During the 80s, the west was as bad as any conference hhas ever been. And please tell me what great teams either of the Celtics or Lakers beat.


Bird joined a team that was ravaged with injuries. Which reflected in their record. Not because of a lack of talent.
97 bulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:10 PM   #189
TheMan
Repping mis Mexicanas!
 
TheMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: amongst wackos
Posts: 10,413
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
No, you don't. Wilt learned that, Jordan learned that and so did Shaq in recent history. Simply being the league's leading scorer is not enough. One has to get your teammates in the game. If you are being double-teamed, forget the tough shot and give to the open man. Jordan, a lot of the time, passed the ball off when trapped and couldn't score, rather than the other way round.

He got away with it in the 90s where the teams really weren't as competitive as the 80s. He wouldn't have been as successful in their era and wouldn't have that many titles.

Bird inherited a horrible team in his rookie year and took them to the best regular season record, he did it without dominating the scoring like Jordan. Jordan dominated the scoring - ridiculously so - and couldn't get his team above .500 for the first phase of his career. A team scoring a lot is conducive to winning - an individual doing so is less likely.
Well, if MJ had the players around him that Bird and Magic had earlier in their careers...
Totally different having McHale/Cedric Maxwell or KAJ/Bob McAdoo as teammates to Orlando Woolridge or Dave Corzine.
TheMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:11 PM   #190
LeBird
Local High School Star
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
I don't see how Jordan didn't do the dog work. He did pretty much all he could do. In fact, he probably did a little too much early on but he always gave maximum effort on both ends of the floor. He got rebounds when they were needed, defended guys that were lighting up the team, etc. You aren't wrong about Pippen, but you're selling Jordan short. He was just as much a utility player as Bird was.

Because what Jordan did got the glory, and Pippen was mostly an after-thought.

There is no way that Jordan was as utility as Bird. Bird was the team's best passer, scorer and rebounder whenever they needed him to be - doing one or all of it. The same goes for Magic. Jordan didn't run a game like them in terms of passing it or have the size to match-up to bigger players.

Maybe I am selling Jordan a bit short, but don't put him with Magic or Bird in the way they changed up their game based on the need at the time. Jordan didn't have the skill-set for it.

Quote:
Jordan did gamble on defense early on his career but that's because the Bulls weren't a great defensive team. He was their best defender on the floor and just happened to be a perimeter player. Until Pippen, every other position on the floor was a disadvantage defensively. Brad Sellers, John Paxson and Dave Corzine with Charles Oakley as the major interior defender. Oakley was like 6'9". Bird had Parish/McHale down low with him (McHale was always considered a great defender) with DJ locking up the best perimeter threats. Bird could afford to play defense without much gambling.

Yeah, I agree with you here.

Quote:
And Pippen (and others) also fed off of Jordan. His off the ball movement allowed the triangle to work even though he took most of the shots. Jordan was just as dangerous dominating the ball as he was in the triangle. Pippen's maturity helped the Bulls get better, not Jordan. He thrived more with Jordan than he did with Hakeem/Barkley so it's not like his style would work under any circumstances.

I'm sure he did feed off Jordan - although I think the Rockets comparison is wrong for several reasons - but I think Pippen could have been seen as an even better player, individually, if he did not have to play Robin to Jordan's Batman so much.
LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:13 PM   #191
Calabis
Good college starter
 
Calabis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,140
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Story Up
Magic to me, then Kareem, then Russell.
**** Jordan, overrated commercialized piece of shit. If it wasn't for digitalized era where you see his face everywhere he wouldn't be so highly praised. Top five easy, but undisputed best? ****ing joke and a half. Magic could take 4 other scrubs and make that team better then Jordan could.



Too bad Magic never played with 4 scrubs....usually surrounded by All-Stars and a Top 5 Goat canidate

Where as Jordan did play with 4 scrubs and had his team in the playoffs
Calabis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:15 PM   #192
TheMan
Repping mis Mexicanas!
 
TheMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: amongst wackos
Posts: 10,413
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
That's because the team first guys were taking rings off each other whereas the selfish guy won in a diluted league.

As for another team first guy...

Yeah, MJ snatched a ring from Magic too
The Celtics and Lakers were great in the 80s because they were STACKED...and don't get me started on Russell, every starter on those Celtics were HOFers. Russell wasn't going at it alone.
TheMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:15 PM   #193
LeBird
Local High School Star
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 bulls
Again, i couldnt disagree more. During the 80s, the west was as bad as any conference hhas ever been. And please tell me what great teams either of the Celtics or Lakers beat.

Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, Sixers > 90s. Are you now arguing that the 80s wasn't a tougher era than the 90s? Come...on.

Quote:
Bird joined a team that was ravaged with injuries. Which reflected in their record. Not because of a lack of talent.

It was hardly a one year thing. In 78 they were also a crap team. Talent is one thing, ability is another. Some of those notable players were well past their best. You're pretty good at revising history, eh?

Last edited by LeBird : 08-01-2012 at 05:17 PM.
LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:19 PM   #194
LeBird
Local High School Star
 
LeBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMan
Yeah, MJ snatched a ring from Magic too
The Celtics and Lakers were great in the 80s because they were STACKED...and don't get me started on Russell, every starter on those Celtics were HOFers. Russell wasn't going at it alone.

Yeah, when Worthy and Scott got injured for the finals...I remember.

The thing with eras <90s is that the league was smaller, so there were more than one stacked team. Whereas in the 90s...it was basically just the Bulls.
LeBird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2012, 05:20 PM   #195
Da_Realist
NBA lottery pick
 
Da_Realist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,434
Default Re: Is Michael Jordan the unanimous G.O.A.T on ISH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
Because what Jordan did got the glory, and Pippen was mostly an after-thought.

I agree with you here. Pippen's contributions are underrated. But that doesn't take away from the effort Jordan put in all phases of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBird
There is no way that Jordan was as utility as Bird. Bird was the team's best passer, scorer and rebounder whenever they needed him to be - doing one or all of it. The same goes for Magic. Jordan didn't run a game like them in terms of passing it or have the size to match-up to bigger players.

But he did do a lot of things Magic and Bird couldn't. My point is he did what he could. He provided what the team needed. He wasn't the passer that Bird or Magic was. He didn't have the size to match up to bigger players, but he had to quickness to stay with faster ones. He was a better scorer than either of them and a better defender. He didn't average 10 rebs a game but that doesn't mean he didn't stick his nose in there to get key rebounds when he could. He averaged more offensive rebounds over his 15 year career (including his old man years) than Lebron is averaging up to this point in his. He got down and dirty. He's the best shot blocking guard in history (maybe with the exception of D Wade) and his quick hands stripped many players when the game was on the line. He wasn't less than Bird/Magic in that regard, he just did it in different ways.

Last edited by Da_Realist : 08-02-2012 at 11:29 AM.
Da_Realist is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:


Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:56 PM.




NBA BASKETBALL FORUM KEY LINKS:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
Search Site

FOLLOW US
Twitter
Facebook


















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy